Fare evasion - Thameslink / Southeastern

[Jupiter_63]

Hi all

First post on here and hoping for your usual helpful advice and support.

I am of course very remorseful about the below and all of this stress and worry makes you realise what a stupid mistake it really is to avoid fares.

Yesterday I was stopped by a Revenue Protection Officer (with a Southeastern lanyard) at a Thameslink station for buying an e-ticket from Farringdon to City Thameslink, when my original departure was from another station (which has no barriers). On the basis that I have done this before and felt they would find this out, I co-operated fully with the Revenue Officer and told them I had in fact done this before, and off the top of my head estimated it to be around 20-30 times, which I can’t be sure of exactly but thought this was a good estimate (looking at my Trainline history it was around ~30 round trips, but appreciate they may see it as ~60 single trips). The revenue officer was polite and told me that I would either receive a penalty fee or a notice of prosecution, and based on history of this forum I am expecting the latter to come through in the next weeks / months.

Essentially the reason I did this was because I moved to the area in Feb 22 and in order to save on expensive costs I looked at reducing my fare, which is of course stupid. I’m really stressing about the worst case scenario of a criminal record which would really limit my career and likely result in me losing my job.

I know that being a repeat offender won’t help my case and reduces my chances of getting an out of court settlement, which is of course the result I’m praying for. I will probably start preparing a letter based on the many examples in this forum, ultimately stating I am sorry, won’t do it again (as evidenced by my Trainline post the event) and will hope for an out of court settlement at the risk of losing my job. I am also expecting a penalty in the region of £2000 as a conservative estimate, but appreciate this could be more / less with fees, and am of course willing to pay this to avoid a criminal record.

I wanted to ask if:
1) there were any similar previous scenarios to mine where an out of court settlement was reached and the likelihood of doing so, just for some peace of mind
2) whether you think it’s worth me reaching out to Thameslink now and fessing up to save them the hassle and admin of the investigation to aid my case

Thanks in advance.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a little confused, if you had a Farringdon to City Thameslink ticket presumably you were finishing your journey at one of these stations, having come from further afield? Southeastern don't serve Farringdon or City Thameslink so I'm not sure why one of their inspectors would be working there, not that it really makes any difference because there are normally agreements between the train companies covering things like this.

I'm sure you've already come across my standard advice in these cases but for completeness I'll repeat it again.

I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. There was no need to mention the other cases, unless you were specifically asked about them by the person who spoke to you at the station. Although they can research your online purchase history they don't always do this in a straightforward case but you might have inadvertently invited them to dig a little deeper. You will need to be careful how you reply to their lrtter, you should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

 

[Jupiter_63]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a little confused, if you had a Farringdon to City Thameslink ticket presumably you were finishing your journey at one of these stations, having come from further afield? Southeastern don't serve Farringdon or City Thameslink so I'm not sure why one of their inspectors would be working there, not that it really makes any difference because there are normally agreements between the train companies covering things like this.

I'm sure you've already come across my standard advice in these cases but for completeness I'll repeat it again.

I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. There was no need to mention the other cases, unless you were specifically asked about them by the person who spoke to you at the station. Although they can research your online purchase history they don't always do this in a straightforward case but you might have inadvertently invited them to dig a little deeper. You will need to be careful how you reply to their lrtter, you should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

Yes that’s exactly right Hadders. So the train departed a station in Bedfordshire, and went through Farringdon and City Thameslink. My intended stop being City Thameslink. In order to cut the cost I bought tickets from Farringdon to City Thameslink. I believe that is called short ticketing.

I just mentioned the Southeastern thing because I thought it odd too but I suppose they’ll pass information to Thameslink.

Thank you for the advice.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for confirming.

To answer your specific quertions

1. There is no set criteria for court v out of court settlement. There was a famous our of court settlement of around £30k several years ago but on the other hand some train companies have prosecuted for a little at 10p. Govia Thameslink Railway (who I suspect will handle your case although it might be Southeastern) are generally one of the better companies for settling out of court as long as you engage with them.

2. There is no point in telephoning them to chase up your letter. They have a set process and you need to let that take it course. Put what has happenedc to the back of your mind and get on with you life until the letter arrives. Easier said than done but they have loads of cases to process - you are literally a case number to them.

 

[ZeoliteMantis]

@Jupiter_63

I think we are in a similar situation. Have you found threads similar to your situation and if so, can you link them here?

Thanks

 

[spag23]

As others regularly point out, every case is (usually) different.
If ZeoliteMantis is really in exactly the same situation as the OP, then just follow this thread (especially Hadders).
If there are any differences, it would be better to start a new thread.

 

[Hadders]

@Jupiter_63

I think we are in a similar situation. Have you found threads similar to your situation and if so, can you link them here?

Thanks

Please can you start a new thread telling us exactly what happened and we will be happy to offer advice.

 

[RPI]

GTR do have a tendency (according to these forums) to offer out of court settlements.

What will usually happen is they will investigate all of your booking history and will work out what they believe you owe them and will send a "bill" so to speak for those fares plus and administration charge on top.

They may or may not deduct anything that you have already paid, if it went to court they would almost definitely deduct anything that you have paid but then you would obviously have a conviction and costs.

Its best to wait for the letter and then come back here and upload the details of the letter, minus any personal details and dates and the experts will advise

 

[Jupiter_63]

Thank you for the advice all, it’s greatly appreciated!

 

[bikesntrains77]

Where and what were the circumstances of you being stopped... e.g. did you buy a Farringdon to City Thameslink eticket and the barcode failed to open the barriers at City Thameslink?

 

[Jupiter_63]

Where and what were the circumstances of you being stopped... e.g. did you buy a Farringdon to City Thameslink eticket and the barcode failed to open the barriers at City Thameslink?

Yes I bought a Farringdon to City Thameslink e-ticket.

When I got to City Thames link station, there were at least 2 Revenue Protection Officers blocking the barriers and questioning anyone who had tickets. I was one of the ones they questioned further which lead to the interview in my original post.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes I bought a Farringdon to City Thameslink e-ticket.

When I got to City Thames link station, there were at least 2 Revenue Protection Officers blocking the barriers and questioning anyone who had tickets. I was one of the ones they questioned further which lead to the interview in my original post.

Assuming the barriers at City T/L are enabled for e-tickets, do you know why the barriers didn’t just let you out?
Or might this have been some sort of targeted check?

 

[island]

Assuming the barriers at City T/L are enabled for e-tickets, do you know why the barriers didn’t just let you out?
Or might this have been some sort of targeted check?

As said in the very post you quoted, the RPIs were "blocking the barriers".

 

[swt_passenger]

As said in the very post you quoted, the RPIs were "blocking the barriers".

But even then what was wrong with the e-ticket? There’s no immediately obvious grounds for the revenue staff querying it at that point? Time of issue being suspicious maybe? No evidence of entry at Farringdon?

 

[Hadders]

A revenue block at City Thameslink is likely to be very effective. I'd be looking for:

- Tickets from GN stations to London Terminals
- Tickets from Farringdon or Blackfriars to City Thameslink. No-one would ever do these journeys by train, it's as fast to walk
- The usual non-valid tickets, wrong railcards etc.

In the case of Farringdon/Blackfriars tickets to City Thameslink it should be possible to see how many are purchased and and what time of day they're being used. This would assist in targeting resources.

 

[Haywain]

But even then what was wrong with the e-ticket? There’s no immediately obvious grounds for the revenue staff querying it at that point? Time of issue being suspicious maybe? No evidence of entry at Farringdon?

An eTicket from Farringdon would automatically be suspicious at City Thameslink to me.

 

[bikesntrains77]

But even then what was wrong with the e-ticket? There’s no immediately obvious grounds for the revenue staff querying it at that point? Time of issue being suspicious maybe? No evidence of entry at Farringdon?

The lack of an eticket entry scan could also raise questions ... although does Farringdon actually have barcode readers?

All of this is no consolation to the OP, who was caught and then through their own admissions (likely under caution) unwittingly escalated the case against them. I hope the letter comes soon as uncertainty is never nice.

 

[madjack]

An eTicket from Farringdon would automatically be suspicious at City Thameslink to me.

Especially as an eTicket (£3.50) is more expensive than using PAYG (£2.50).

 

[jon0844]

Especially as an eTicket (£3.50) is more expensive than using PAYG (£2.50).

It's pretty clear that virtually nobody will buy a ticket for a single journey between those stations as it's far easier to walk (and without waiting for a train, even if they are usually very frequent). I wonder if GTR will look at the ticket sales to see how many people are suddenly doing this journey regularly. If it's like TfL, that analysis (along with seeing that almost all of them will only ever scanned in or out, or not at all, never both) should be leading to an automatic investigation and additional checks.

Same as you might imagine the crazy amount of sales of e-tickets sales from, say, Hatfield to Welham Green in the morning peak, with passengers often accidentally boarding a train that doesn't even stop there... all hoping to avoid an on-board check, or being ready to buy an additional e-ticket if required.

 

[spag23]

And what if there are Trainline records of the OP buying tickets from his start station to the next one up the line on the same days as the inner London "hops"?

 

[Jupiter_63]

Hi all

I thought I would come back here to inform of the conclusion of this given all of your help on the above.

Shortly after my original post I contacted Manak Solicitors to help with arranging an out of court settlement despite not having received a letter. A solicitor at the firm, Samir, spent the last few weeks working on the case for me and managed to arrange an out of court settlement on my behalf, which I’m of course very happy with and accepted.

For anyone thinking of instructing solicitors to act on their behalf and in a similar situation to mine, I can say that my personal experience with Manak and Samir was very good and I would definitely recommend them.

Thanks again for all the help and support.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you for letting us know, we very much appreciate it. Overall it sounds like you have got a good result.

It would be helpful if you could give us an idea of how much it cost to resolve this, both the solicitor costs and how much you had to pay GTR. This is so that we are able to offer good advice to people who seek our sell in the future.

Totally understand if you don’t want to disclose the exact figures on here, I am happy if you want to send me a private Conversation message.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all

I thought I would come back here to inform of the conclusion of this given all of your help on the above.

Shortly after my original post I contacted Manak Solicitors to help with arranging an out of court settlement despite not having received a letter. A solicitor at the firm, Samir, spent the last few weeks working on the case for me and managed to arrange an out of court settlement on my behalf, which I’m of course very happy with and accepted.

For anyone thinking of instructing solicitors to act on their behalf and in a similar situation to mine, I can say that my personal experience with Manak and Samir was very good and I would definitely recommend them.

Thanks again for all the help and support.

Thanks for taking the time to update - do you feel able to give an indication of the cost of this to help others in future - eg roughly what you paid the solicitors you used and maybe an idea of the costs of the settlement that they negotiated for you.

Anyway - glad to hear you feel this worked out OK for you.

 

[432thameslink]

Hi, I am also very interested in this as I am in a similar situation, did you contact the solicitors before you got a letter?

Happy that it worked out for you!