Fastest London to Paris times before Eurostar (surface route)

[JB_B]

Does anyone know the fastest London->Paris timings before Eurostar services started?

I know that in steam days the Golden Arrow was timetabled to do it in 6h40; presumably something a bit better was achievable via hovercraft or catamaran?

(I'm thinking specifically of rai/sea/rail - so not e.g. the Silver Arrow.)

 

[bnm]

A friend did Charing Cross - Eiffel Tower in 5 hours 45 minutes in 1998.

Road-Hovercraft-Road. With 30 mins for hovercraft check-in. Actual travelling time of 5 hours 15 minutes.

 

[theageofthetra]

I doubt anything beat the Hovercraft and a car?

 

[JB_B]

Thanks for the replies - 5h45 isn't bad. I was thinking more of timetabled rail-sea-rail connections. I thought I'd seen these advertised in the 1980s but I could be wrong.

 

[eastwestdivide]

My 1978 International Supplement to the all-line timetable has:
0900 Charing Cross - Dover Priory 1028 (a normal service train)
special bus transfer
1130 Dover Hoverport - Boulogne Hoverport 1305 (local time)
1357 Boulogne Hoverport station - Paris Nord 1633
So 6h33 (accounting for the time difference) on a hovercraft service.

Closely followed by:
0900 Victoria - Folkestone Harbour 1020 (boat train)
1045 Folkestone Harbour - Boulogne Maritime 1335 (ferry)
special bus transfer to Boulogne Ville
1415 Boulogne Ville - Paris Nord 1637
So 6h37 for a ferry service.

The speed of the hovercraft crossing was mostly neutralised by the quicker connections for the ferry.

A Dover ferry for comparison:
1100 Victoria - Dover Marine (later Western Docks) 1220 (boat train)
1300 Dover Marine - Boulogne Maritime 1550 (ferry)
1640 Boulogne Maritime - Paris Nord 1923
For 7h23, with relaxed connection times.

A few Calais crossings were also shown, but only with onward connections to Lille, not to Paris.
And the Newhaven route was also shown, but substantially slower at ~9 hours London-Paris

 

[JB_B]

My 1978 International Supplement to the all-line timetable has:
...

That's very useful - thanks.

 

[30907]

My 1978 International Supplement to the all-line timetable has:
0900 Charing Cross - Dover Priory 1028 (a normal service train)
special bus transfer
1130 Dover Hoverport - Boulogne Hoverport 1305 (local time)
1357 Boulogne Hoverport station - Paris Nord 1633
So 6h33 (accounting for the time difference) on a hovercraft service.

Closely followed by:
0900 Victoria - Folkestone Harbour 1020 (boat train)
1045 Folkestone Harbour - Boulogne Maritime 1335 (ferry)
special bus transfer to Boulogne Ville
1415 Boulogne Ville - Paris Nord 1637
So 6h37 for a ferry service.

The speed of the hovercraft crossing was mostly neutralised by the quicker connections for the ferry.

A Dover ferry for comparison:
1100 Victoria - Dover Marine (later Western Docks) 1220 (boat train)
1300 Dover Marine - Boulogne Maritime 1550 (ferry)
1640 Boulogne Maritime - Paris Nord 1923
For 7h23, with relaxed connection times.

A few Calais crossings were also shown, but only with onward connections to Lille, not to Paris.
And the Newhaven route was also shown, but substantially slower at ~9 hours London-Paris

That 0900 (which IIRC was summer only) is impressively fast. I suspect it was relatively lightly loaded (no relief train), otherwise the bus transfer would have hit problems.

I checked the 1963 times (still steam between the French port and Amiens?) and the Arrow was just under 7 hours.

 

[eastwestdivide]

For comparison with today:

The current IC trains from Boulogne-Amiens-Paris take 2h45-2h55 ish, seemingly a bit slower than back then.
But now there are occasional TGVs via the high speed line Boulogne-Calais-Paris taking about 2h15, about the same end-to-end time as the fastest London-Paris Eurostar!

Charing Cross-Dover is now 1h53 best time off peak, vs 1h28 then (or 1h20 on the boat trains from Victoria-Dover).
But now we also have St Pancras-Dover in 1h04.
In fact even if you were standing in Trafalgar Square, you might get to Dover quicker by heading north to St Pancras first.

The ferries are now concentrated on Calais, at least as far as the few remaining foot passengers are concerned, and the shuttle buses between station and port have disappeared, as we found out this summer when we travelled Amiens-Calais-Dover for nostalgia reasons.

Driving: Google Maps gives me 5h30 leaving now, for the 285 miles London-Paris via Eurotunnel, but times range from 5h20 to 8h if you put a weekday next week leaving at 10am.

 

[theageofthetra]

My 1978 International Supplement to the all-line timetable has:
0900 Charing Cross - Dover Priory 1028 (a normal service train)
special bus transfer
1130 Dover Hoverport - Boulogne Hoverport 1305 (local time)
1357 Boulogne Hoverport station - Paris Nord 1633
So 6h33 (accounting for the time difference) on a hovercraft service.

Closely followed by:
0900 Victoria - Folkestone Harbour 1020 (boat train)
1045 Folkestone Harbour - Boulogne Maritime 1335 (ferry)
special bus transfer to Boulogne Ville
1415 Boulogne Ville - Paris Nord 1637
So 6h37 for a ferry service.

The speed of the hovercraft crossing was mostly neutralised by the quicker connections for the ferry.

A Dover ferry for comparison:
1100 Victoria - Dover Marine (later Western Docks) 1220 (boat train)
1300 Dover Marine - Boulogne Maritime 1550 (ferry)
1640 Boulogne Maritime - Paris Nord 1923
For 7h23, with relaxed connection times.

A few Calais crossings were also shown, but only with onward connections to Lille, not to Paris.
And the Newhaven route was also shown, but substantially slower at ~9 hours London-Paris

Those connection times were irrelevant if you drove to the hoverport.

 

[Shrewbly]

Road-Hovercraft-Road. With 30 mins for hovercraft check-in.

I'd agree that this was quickest - and hovercraft check-in times could be incredibly quick; less than 10 minutes before departure sometimes - IIRC my fastest crossing was just 35 mins from turning up at the check-in to driving off in France, helped by a calm sea and a spirited drive from the pilot!

 

[frodshamfella]

As a young lad I left school in the mid 80s to become a travel agent and recall issuing hovercraft tickets which were more like airline tickets with fight numbers. You had a choice of Hoverlloyd from Ramsgate and Seaspeed from Dover ( which was part of the railways)they adventually merged to become Hoverspeed.

Happy days !!

 

[etr221]

In late March 1964 (Summer time - all GMT+1, Winter TT) the Golden Arrow was scheduled Victoria dep 1100, Dover Marine 1222/1250, Calais Maritime 1410/1437, Paris Nord 1750, ie 6 hours 50. Return was 1221-1935, 7 hours 14.
In 1938 (French=British time), Victoria 1100-Paris N 1740 via Dover-Calais, return Paris N 1030 - Victoria 1720 via Boulogne-Folkestone - much the same speed as 26 years later.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Those connection times were irrelevant if you drove to the hoverport.

Well, yes, but I'm not sure that's the point. They're also irrelevant if you were roller-skating or using any other means of transport, but I posted those connection times as a relevant answer to the question asked in the post before mine (post 4), which specifically asked about "timetabled rail-sea-rail connections".

 

[Journeyman]

How long did the Night Ferry take? Anyone on here ever used it?

 

[30907]

How long did the Night Ferry take? Anyone on here ever used it?

Only ever used the seated version, but for most of its life it was roughly 10pm to 9am (time zones permitting). 10pm ex Victoria, 9.10am into Victoria. When Dunkerque Ouest berth was opened, the ferry crossing was 90min faster and the inbound train was retimed to reach London before the height of the rush hour.
The Newgaven-Dieppe route was IIRC faster as well as cheaper for seated passengers.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The 1910 Bradshaw reprint has an advert for the South Eastern & Chatham Railway offering 6h 50m for London to Paris (although the detailed train and steamer timings don't clearly support this). This was down from remarkably similar adverts showing 7h 15m in 1895 and 8h 0m in 1887.

 

[JB_B]

The 1910 Bradshaw reprint has an advert for the South Eastern & Chatham Railway offering 6h 50m for London to Paris (although the detailed train and steamer timings don't clearly support this). This was down from remarkably similar adverts showing 7h 15m in 1895 and 8h 0m in 1887.

Interesting 6h50 was advertised so early ( if it was indeed acheived.) My 1873 Thomas Cook appears to show first class day and night connections taking 10h20 and 10h35 respectively.

The 6h40 I quoted for the Golden Arrow was based on this page -

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r071.html

- but I'm not sure that was necessarily the timetabled time.

 

[AY1975]

Only ever used the seated version, but for most of its life it was roughly 10pm to 9am (time zones permitting). 10pm ex Victoria, 9.10am into Victoria. When Dunkerque Ouest berth was opened, the ferry crossing was 90min faster and the inbound train was retimed to reach London before the height of the rush hour.
The Newhaven-Dieppe route was IIRC faster as well as cheaper for seated passengers.

For a time in the mid to late 1980s the Portsmouth-Le Havre route (operated by Townsend Thoresen, then P&O) was promoted as a through route for rail-sea-rail passengers. I don't have any timings via that route, though. Unlike the Newhaven-Dieppe route, you actually got a proper night's sleep if you went that way, so I suppose it partly made up for the loss of the "Night Ferry".

My parents and I went that way to Lyon in 1986 as part of a Golden Rail package holiday, but rough conditions at sea meant we missed our booked train at Le Havre and arrived in Paris at about 12.00ish instead of 10.00, then had to get a TGV to Lyon at about 16.00 instead of 12.00.

 

[30907]

For a time in the mid to late 1980s the Portsmouth-Le Havre route (operated by Townsend Thoresen, then P&O) was promoted as a through route for rail-sea-rail passengers. I don't have any timings via that route, though. Unlike the Newhaven-Dieppe route, you actually got a proper night's sleep if you went that way, so I suppose it partly made up for the loss of the "Night Ferry".

My parents and I went that way to Lyon in 1986 as part of a Golden Rail package holiday, but rough conditions at sea meant we missed our booked train at Le Havre and arrived in Paris at about 12.00ish instead of 10.00, then had to get a TGV to Lyon at about 16.00 instead of 12.00.

The Man in Seat 61 suggests leaving 18.30 arriving 12.10, but with a generous allowance in Portsmouth. Fairly sure the ferry was quicker (ie more intensively timetabled) in your day!

 

[Western Lord]

Remember that back in the fifties and early sixties the fastest way across the channel was the Silver City air ferry from Lydd to Le Touquet. I'm pretty sure a fast car (with no speed limits in those days) could have done London to Paris faster than the times mentioned above.

 

[AY1975]

The Man in Seat 61 suggests leaving 18.30 arriving 12.10, but with a generous allowance in Portsmouth. Fairly sure the ferry was quicker (ie more intensively timetabled) in your day!

Yes, and as the ferry sails and 23.15 and you have to check in for it no later than 22.30, surely you could get away with getting a train to Portsmouth, say, an hour later than he recommends.

He also advises you to get off at Portsmouth & Southsea and get a taxi, rather than Portsmouth Harbour. Certainly when I went that way we got off at Portsmouth Harbour, and in those days there were shuttle buses from Portsmouth Harbour station to the continental ferry port (which had special luggage trailers attached to the rear IIRC).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sometime around 1990 I was returning from Paris CDG to Heathrow in the early evening after a day's business trip.
As I arrived at CDG the firemen went on strike, closing the airport - mass panic!
So I reversed direction back to Paris and caught a Paris-Le Havre Corail service from St Lazare which connected with the overnight Portsmouth ferry.
From Portsmouth Harbour I caught the connecting non-stop (and empty) XC train (loco+mk2) to Reading via Guildford, and turned up at work for 0900!
It was a taxi in Le Havre, can't remember the transfer in Portsmouth, but it was a very good Plan B.
Not a super-fast journey, but really quite civilised with a decent sleep on board.

I guess you can still do that trip, but there won't be a connecting fast inter-city train to Reading at Portsmouth.​

 

[frodshamfella]

Remember that back in the fifties and early sixties the fastest way across the channel was the Silver City air ferry from Lydd to Le Touquet. I'm pretty sure a fast car (with no speed limits in those days) could have done London to Paris faster than the times mentioned above.

I flew that route from Lydd, much later in the 80s, just for a day trip in Le Touquet plus another day trip to Ostend and one to Beauvais Airport with coach to Paris).

Lydd Airport has a feeling of a bygone age, I enjoyed the trips very much.

 

[Busaholic]

Remember that back in the fifties and early sixties the fastest way across the channel was the Silver City air ferry from Lydd to Le Touquet. I'm pretty sure a fast car (with no speed limits in those days) could have done London to Paris faster than the times mentioned above.

There was also a car ferry service from Southend in 1963, at least, which included Calais among its destinations. There's a Rank 'Look At Life' film on You Tube from that year, with the suggestion at the end that such services could be operating to North Africa by 1973!!

 

[Western Lord]

There was also a car ferry service from Southend in 1963, at least, which included Calais among its destinations. There's a Rank 'Look At Life' film on You Tube from that year, with the suggestion at the end that such services could be operating to North Africa by 1973!!

The Southend services were set up by Silver City's rival, Channel Air Bridge which was a Freddie Laker enterprise. Originally they used the same type of aircraft, Bristol Superfreighters, as Silver City, but in 1962 they introduced the Carvair, a converted DC-4 with greater capacity and range built by another Laker company, Aviation Traders. By the following year both Silver City and Channel Air Bridge had been subsumed into the British United group to trade as British United Air Ferries. The Carvairs were used on what were termed "deep penetration" flights to Basle, Geneva and Strasbourg as used by James Bond in Goldfinger!

 

[DidcotDickie]

The Southend services were set up by Silver City's rival, Channel Air Bridge which was a Freddie Laker enterprise. Originally they used the same type of aircraft, Bristol Superfreighters, as Silver City, but in 1962 they introduced the Carvair, a converted DC-4 with greater capacity and range built by another Laker company, Aviation Traders. By the following year both Silver City and Channel Air Bridge had been subsumed into the British United group to trade as British United Air Ferries. The Carvairs were used on what were termed "deep penetration" flights to Basle, Geneva and Strasbourg as used by James Bond in Goldfinger!

Thanks for that (and Busaholic). Used to see the Bristol Superfreighters and Carvairs flying to/from Southend over my grandparents' house in Thorpe Bay as a kid. Didn't know about the Freddie Laker connection!

 

[Taunton]

I remember from university days we looked at how many times we could get within a day from Charing Cross to touching France (at the Calais Hoverport), then coming back to Charing Cross and starting again. I seem to recall that two round trips was straightforward, but three required a ship as well, as the hovercraft finished quite early. One of the group wrote to BR to ask about a special ticket, but the reply was just that we would need three round trip fares, and we lost interest after that.