First class on Great Northern Class 700

[onebagger]

Hello,
As is (presumably) common knowledge, on Thameslink services the rear first class section is declassified. Is this also the case for Great Northern services operating using Class 700s?
TIA

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

How long have you got? My view is 'no': the train is running as a GN service for track access and reporting purposes, even though it is painted 'Thameslink' on the side. The GN services are also sometimes covered by C387s, which definitely have never had the 1st Class declassified.

But others along shortly may well argue that the TSGN is, legally, all one company (ie. there is no GN subsidiary) and so the ruling applies to the C700s whatever route they are on.

Under consumer protection law, in principle, whenever there is a difference in the advertised terms and conditions the interpretation most favourable to the customer is supposed to apply. But this ruling might be a little tricky to debate with an RPI if they are insistent that the 1st class is not declassified....

 

[Crithylum]

AFAIK, it is always declassified. As part of the announcement cycles, the screens will display that "this section can be used by passengers with standard class tickets" (or something to that effect).

 

[Hadders]

The rear 1st class compartment on Thameslink branded trains is permanently declassified and can be used by standsard class ticket holders. This is regardless of which route they are running on. Note only class 700 trains have Thameslink branding.

 

[Bald Rick]

The rear 1st class compartment on Thameslink branded trains is permanently declassified and can be used by standsard class ticket holders. This is regardless of which route they are running on. Note only class 700 trains have Thameslink branding.

But as ever, remember that what is the rear of the train changes every time it reverses direction!

(Something Mrs BR simply can not comprehend, despite me explaining with increasing and equal levels of patience and frustration about 3 times a year since 2016).


Regardless, the only sure way to know if the first class is declassified is by reading the info on the customer informatin screens on the train concerned. If it is declassified it will say so.

 

[yorkie]

This cropped up on Twitter, and GTR confirmed it's declassified in the rear portion of the Thameslink branded (700 class) stock:

https://x.com/Stewie_32/status/1894504162517230074

Hi Shawn. Is a "Thameslink service" determined by rolling stock or headcode?

I see! Apologies, these are usually Thameslink services so I advise if it's Thameslink stock, this will apply networkwide ^Ben

Thanks. So Thameslink Stock only. Ie. Class 700 Trains only.

And another Tweet:

https://x.com/GNRailUK/status/1669032993015439381

Hi there, we now have a smaller fleet available than we did in the past, so we work carefully to match passenger numbers with capacity. This means that a small number of Peterborough services are now run by 8 car class 700s, with some 387s now running on our stopping services. ^E

First class is always declassified at the rear of the trains and there are seats with table located there. ^Emily

 

[onebagger]

Brilliant, thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as ever, remember that what is the rear of the train changes every time it reverses direction!

This indeed is the entire point - so they can say "first class is always at the front" rather than potentially being located randomly at one end or the other (because the Sutton loop turns Thameslink trains round every time they go round it), and it's probably preferable to only having a couple of bays at each end and people have to try both to find a seat, or excessive provision.

See also why the accessible toilets and wheelchair spaces are the two middle vehicles.

 

[norbitonflyer]

But as ever, remember that what is the rear of the train changes every time it reverses direction!

(Something Mrs BR simply can not comprehend, despite me explaining with increasing and equal levels of patience and frustration about 3 times a year since 2016).

My better half has a similar problem understanding which is the front of a train standing at the buffer stops. As far as she is concerned, it is the end she can see when going through the bareier. (which was the front when it came in, but not when it goes out)

 

[Bald Rick]

This indeed is the entire point - so they can say "first class is always at the front"

Mrs BR goes to Brighton. First Class is at the front.

Mrs BR comes home from Brighton. She sits in the rear declassified section. “But this end was the front on the way here, so it must be first class on the way back too”.

 

[Fincra5]

Tbh I don't think its that confusing!

None of the PIS announcements for the "Front X coaches) would work on that logic of the same end always being the front
But yes, any TL (where FC is provided) is only in operation at the front (in the direction of Travel).

TL "Metro", Sutton Loop, Rainham, Sevenoaks and Orpington do not have FC in operation.

 

[Deepgreen]

But as ever, remember that what is the rear of the train changes every time it reverses direction!

(Something Mrs BR simply can not comprehend, despite me explaining with increasing and equal levels of patience and frustration about 3 times a year since 2016).


Regardless, the only sure way to know if the first class is declassified is by reading the info on the customer informatin screens on the train concerned. If it is declassified it will say so.

The whole saga is a joke - almost nobody takes the slightest notice of first class on 700s, and the message about which first class is in force only scrolls through about every three or four minutes and is very easily missed among the plethora of other information. It needs a large, dedicated illuminated sign to say 'First Class' boldly and clearly. It is a mess that only our modern railway could have spawned.

 

[jon0844]

The first class markings are just fine. If someone doesn't know about the rear (or front) being declassified then so be it. Indeed a lot of people are likely quite happy about not everyone knowing.

I don't see why this is seen as a terrible thing, any more than the many services running daily with no first class but with trains having first class accomodation.

 

[bramling]

The whole saga is a joke - almost nobody takes the slightest notice of first class on 700s, and the message about which first class is in force only scrolls through about every three or four minutes and is very easily missed among the plethora of other information. It needs a large, dedicated illuminated sign to say 'First Class' boldly and clearly. It is a mess that only our modern railway could have spawned.

I really don’t see the issue.

Yes it’s a bit of a mess that the units have too much first, primarily the 8-car units, however I can’t see what the issue is with the solution.

If someone is “confused”, then don’t sit there, there’s plenty of other carriages to use. If they don’t know, then they’re none the wiser. If you are in the know, then it’s one of those few things in life where you can get a small token upgrade for free.

I tend to agree with the view that the people fussing about this are those who have fully knowingly tried it on using the front section and got caught out, or were none the wiser at all and just placed themselves in first and again got caught out.

Having said all this, it would probably be better if the whole train was laid out as first is, and actual first just ditched. Someone is going to appear here and say that would cost too much now…

 

[jon0844]

I really don’t see the issue.

Yes it’s a bit of a mess that the units have too much first, primarily the 8-car units, however I can’t see what the issue is with the solution.

If someone is “confused”, then don’t sit there, there’s plenty of other carriages to use. If they don’t know, then they’re none the wiser. If you are in the know, then it’s one of those few things in life where you can get a small token upgrade for free.

I tend to agree with the view that the people fussing about this are those who have knowingly tried it on using the front section and got caught out, or were none the wiser at all and just placed themselves in first and again got caught.

Having said all this, it would probably be better if the whole train was laid out as first is, and actual first just ditched. Someone is going to appear here and say that would cost too much now…

The 700s came into service 9 years ago so I wonder when they'll be up for a refresh. Not sure if the seats will be changed, but I do think every train will get power sockets, tip down tables and WiFi.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I asked this exact question to a GN driver on the 700 I was on, the reply: Front only first class.

 

[bramling]

The 700s came into service 9 years ago so I wonder when they'll be up for a refresh. Not sure if the seats will be changed, but I do think every train will get power sockets, tip down tables and WiFi.

Unfortunately I can’t really see the seats being changed. I do wonder how long first class will last though, it’s surprising it’s lasted as long as it has really, considering how things have gone elsewhere. The situation with the 379s may force the issue, as again there’s over-provision on those.

I guess they could do something like put a more outer-suburban layout in the outer carriages (especially on the 12-cars), but it would create issues I suspect. I do think the whole “loading times in the core” thing was somewhat over-played, and the massive standing capacity could be reduced a bit without the world ending.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see the seats changing either, or at least not at this age. New seat coverings and a repaint, plus perhaps new flooring (there are many dents and other damage).

I suppose GBR could want a different colour scheme or branding at the same time, but I think most people would just like tables and at the very least USB-C ports and possibly mains power.

Wi-fi is perhaps a nice thing to have but I'd personally prefer to see the railway improving cellular coverage instead.

To stay on topic, I don't know if GTR will keep first class but at least there are now two classes of train on the GN side that has a semi decent and excellent offering. The 387s let the side down massively though.

 

[Deepgreen]

I really don’t see the issue.

Yes it’s a bit of a mess that the units have too much first, primarily the 8-car units, however I can’t see what the issue is with the solution.

If someone is “confused”, then don’t sit there, there’s plenty of other carriages to use. If they don’t know, then they’re none the wiser. If you are in the know, then it’s one of those few things in life where you can get a small token upgrade for free.

I tend to agree with the view that the people fussing about this are those who have fully knowingly tried it on using the front section and got caught out, or were none the wiser at all and just placed themselves in first and again got caught out.

Having said all this, it would probably be better if the whole train was laid out as first is, and actual first just ditched. Someone is going to appear here and say that would cost too much now…

To me the issue is that those who have paid for first class usually find themseves sharing with those who haven't, and it can get crowded. This isn't snobbishness - the point of the first class fare is, in the case of TL, not luxury, but less crowding, and the current mess doesn't provide that. The lack of very clear information about it is poor (a scrolling message that is easily missed among the rest of the messages every few minutes is far from adequate).

I would prefer that first class be abolished rather than continue with the mess at present. In my experience revenue inspection very rare so people are very rarely "caught out" - from my observations, almost all simply don't care or know whether it's first class or not. It's not just a matter of being "confused" - it's that most people just don't care because they have given up bothering about which end is in use and just choose where they want to be to alight - NB to Blackfriars or London Bridge, for example, means being at the front.

If there is a programme of 'refresh' for the TL 700s then a clear, large illuminated sign to say 'First Class' would be a solution and would be relatively inexpensive - just using the existing screens among the all the rest of the messages doesn't work. Or give it up and stop charging a first class fare for a very poorly-managed facility.

 

[jon0844]

It's absolutely fine as it is. Until the genuine first class is so full that genuine first class ticket holders can't sit, it isn't a problem except for revenue protection officers to police.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's absolutely fine as it is. Until the genuine first class is so full that genuine first class ticket holders can't sit, it isn't a problem except for revenue protection officers to police.

Interesting - is that your attitude to anyone wrongly in first class (either deliberately or because of poor information) on trains in general, or just on TL?

 

[AM9]

Interesting - is that your attitude to anyone wrongly in first class (either deliberately or because of poor information) on trains in general, or just on TL?

I think he's just inferring that there isn't the problem of FC paying passengers not getting FC accommodation because of the FC (front section) having unticketed FC travellers in it.

 

[jon0844]

I think he's just inferring that there isn't the problem of FC paying passengers not getting FC accommodation because of the FC (front section) having unticketed FC travellers in it.

This.

It isn't down to us to worry about people who can't read signs or simply ignore them. That's been a problem for first class since the dawn of time (give or take) and we don't need giant signs or people on board to tell people when it's declassified. Not knowing doesn't do any harm to those who don't know.

 

[AM9]

This.

It isn't down to us to worry about people who can't read signs or simply ignore them. That's been a problem for first class since the dawn of time (give or take) and we don't need giant signs or people on board to tell people when it's declassified. Not knowing doesn't do any harm to those who don't know.

Yes of course. They have no grounds for complaint if they 'accidently' ignore the front 1st class notices, travel there and are caught unticketed for it. 1st class ticket holders have no justification in objecting to standard class ticket holders travelling in the rear such that there are no spare seats either, as they aren't 1st class seats. They do of course have the right to ask for compensation if they can't get seats in the front though, but there's no evidence her that this happens.

 

[Retorus]

Mrs BR goes to Brighton. First Class is at the front.

Mrs BR comes home from Brighton. She sits in the rear declassified section. “But this end was the front on the way here, so it must be first class on the way back too”.

Mrs BR really should think about this, it's not difficult.

 

[Bald Rick]

Mrs BR really should think about this, it's not difficult.

It’s safe to say that if I had said that to her, I would now be writing this from a tent at the bottom of the garden, or potentially hospital.

 

[Howardh]

In my experience, there are a few better seats available than those in first class with more legroom (but no table of course), and I don't mean those where you face other passengers! There's one (double) in particluar with a small ledge for your coffee and adjacent to the racks with loads of legroom. But generally I get on at St Pancras where it's fairly empty and head for declassified first-class; by the time we move through London those seats quickly fill up; and it may well be roomier in "standard" in the rest of the train.

Personally, I'd prefer more comfortable seats throughout the train (and more tables) rather than first-class (declassified or not). Reading the above posts, is a refurb due, and if so, what are the plans??

 

[Bald Rick]

Reading the above posts, is a refurb due, and if so, what are the plans??

No refurb due for at least a decade, therefore no plans.

 

[Howardh]

No refurb due for at least a decade, therefore no plans.

Thanks, shame, I think they need an upgrade. Gatwick Express is more comfortable in my view, I'd love Thameslink to be more like those!

 

[AM9]

Thanks, shame, I think they need an upgrade. Gatwick Express is more comfortable in my view, I'd love Thameslink to be more like those!

They do what they were provided for, i.e. move very large numbers of passengers effectively and are generally amongst the most reliable trains when considering passenger miles. They are also much quicker along routes than any Electrostar trains with fast opening wide sliding doors.