First Fish Trains in Britain?

[Maybach]

Does anyone know when the first fish train ran in Britain? Or perhaps, more correctly, when fish was first conveyed by train?

 

[Snow1964]

I am sure I have read somewhere that the London & Southampton railway carried it in 1840s (might have be renamed L&SWR by then) to London (as ordinary cargo) as the Thames river was polluted, and good fish were scarce there.

I assume it was put in open wagons like every other freight in early days, with dedicated fish vehicles coming later.

 

[John Webb]

According to "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Biddle and Simmons, OUP, 1997) the earliest transport of fish by railway was in the mid-1840s. The first major traffic was to Manchester from Hartlepool and Hull and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (L&YR) was particularly active in developing this traffic. Grimsby Dock was taken over by the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (later to become the Great Central) in the 1850s and by the 1880s/90s was handling a quarter of the rail-distributed fish in England and Wales. (Scotland had many ports of its own.)
It seems most railways carried fish in open wagons until the early 1900s when specialist vans were introduced particularly by the L&YR.

Carrying by rail had displaced the carrying of fish, most likely dried or pickled, by slow road vehicles, but the advent of the motor lorry gradually took back fish transport from the 1920s onwards and the remaining rail-carrying of fish was discontinued by BR on the Eastern Region in the mid-1970s.

 

[Maybach]

According to "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Biddle and Simmons, OUP, 1997) the earliest transport of fish by railway was in the mid-1840s. The first major traffic was to Manchester from Hartlepool and Hull and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (L&YR) was particularly active in developing this traffic. Grimsby Dock was taken over by the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (later to become the Great Central) in the 1850s and by the 1880s/90s was handling a quarter of the rail-distributed fish in England and Wales. (Scotland had many ports of its own.)
It seems most railways carried fish in open wagons until the early 1900s when specialist vans were introduced particularly by the L&YR.

Carrying by rail had displaced the carrying of fish, most likely dried or pickled, by slow road vehicles, but the advent of the motor lorry gradually took back fish transport from the 1920s onwards and the remaining rail-carrying of fish was discontinued by BR on the Eastern Region in the mid-1970s.

Thanks for a very comprehensive answer! I wasn't previously aware of the aforementioned book so may seek out a copy. It sounds a very handy reference work.

 

[Gloster]

I am fairly sure that within the last five to ten years a book on Fish & Chips was published, possibly the one by Glyn Hughes. Due to the close connection between the industry and the spread of the railway network, it might be of interest.

According to GWR Goods Wagons (Atkins, et al.) fish was originally carried in boxes or barrels, and packed in ice and/or salt. The open wagons were designed to passenger standards so that they could be conveyed in passenger trains to reduce transit times, but were still regarded as goods stock; due to the smell they were usually conveyed at the rear of a train (Stinking Fish!). The GWR had a couple of designs with a small guards hutch in the middle of a long-wheelbase open.

 

[John Webb]

Thanks for a very comprehensive answer! I wasn't previously aware of the aforementioned book so may seek out a copy. It sounds a very handy reference work.

The Oxford Companion is very useful for quick reference - doesn't go into great detail but does include other references, although as published in 1997 it is missing references to more recent books. ISBN is 0-19-211697-5.

 

[Trackbedjolly]

As usual with railway history it all comes down to definitions; what is the definition of a fish-train? Were there not 'fish trains' coming from the ports of Fraserburgh and Peterhead in the 1860s onwards where the whole train was composed of fish waggons? As regards the Oxford Companion it is just that- a set of articles by historians on their pet subjects-it is not an encyclopedia or dictionary. Scratch the surface and what do you find? As mentioned there is very little by way of detail and, as it is written from late twentieth century viewpoint, does not use the correct contemporary terminology for the earlier periods-it is no friend of mine.

 

[Maybach]

According to "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Biddle and Simmons, OUP, 1997) the earliest transport of fish by railway was in the mid-1840s. The first major traffic was to Manchester from Hartlepool and Hull and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (L&YR) was particularly active in developing this traffic...It seems most railways carried fish in open wagons until the early 1900s when specialist vans were introduced particularly by the L&YR.

Just out of interest, is there a book that deals with L&YR fish traffic? John Marshall wrote a definitive three-volume history of the Company but I don't know which, if any, of his books would be the best. And then there's O.S. Nock's history of the L&YR as well. Would that be any good?

 

[John Webb]

Just out of interest, is there a book that deals with L&YR fish traffic? John Marshall wrote a definitive three-volume history of the Company but I don't know which, if any, of his books would be the best. And then there's O.S. Nock's history of the L&YR as well. Would that be any good?

I've not the foggiest idea! The info I quoted came from the book I mentioned in my previous post. A history of the L&YR might prove useful?

 

[Maybach]

Well, that's kind of what I was asking: what would be best book to read on the L&YR?

 

[John Webb]

Well, that's kind of what I was asking: what would be best book to read on the L&YR?

I've not read any books on the history of the L&YR so can't make any suggestions/recommendations - sorry!

 

[Maybach]

I might ask that question on a separate thread. I'm guessing that there are quite a few L&Y fans on this forum but not many may be attracted towards a thread headed, "First Fish Trains in Britain?"!

 

[Spartacus]

I'd be surprised if the Whitby & Pickering didn't convey fish, though probably not whole trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

John Marshall's 3 volume history is probably the best on the L&YR, but on a quick look, it mentions that fish traffic at Fleetwood increased rapidly after 1890, including that sent by rail - but does not mention destinations for the fish trains.

OS Nock books tend to have a bias towards locomotive performance.

 

[CarltonA]

John Marshall's 3 volume history is probably the best on the L&YR, but on a quick look, it mentions that fish traffic at Fleetwood increased rapidly after 1890, including that sent by rail - but does not mention destinations for the fish trains.

(London) Broad Street was a destination for Fleetwood fish trains. There was a serious accident in 1946 involving such a train at Lichfield Trent Valley. Twenty killed due to frozen points and faulty interlocking.

 

[Gloster]

Trying fish as a search term on Railways Archive produces an accident report from 1845 of a collision involving a fish train at Waltham, probably the station now called Waltham Cross.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

OS Nock books tend to have a bias towards locomotive performance.

Possibly a serious understatement ........at the expense of other more interesting matters. However , he wrote a lot and people bought the books etc.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The GWR had a couple of designs with a small guards hutch in the middle of a long-wheelbase open.

Here’s what is described as a Tadpole A. Whilst the ride may have been smooth I expect the van floor would be rather slippery and the journey awfully smelly.

Photo Lens of Sutton.

 

[Maybach]

I've been doing quite a bit of reading on fish trains (both books and on-line). According to Steve Banks' excellent LNER website, "An early concept was to carry live fish in water tanks, which were delivered by passenger-rated open wagons. Both the NER and GNR are known to have built these wagons." I must admit that I didn't know that. It sounds...interesting! It's unclear when the practise ceased though. Banks says few wagons lasted beyond the mid-1920s but then has a photo of one at York c.1930 and suggests that it was still probably being used as a fish truck.

 

[Tio Terry]

I've no idea when they started running but, as a small boy, I can remember the "Fast Fish" trains running up the East Suffolk to London! But that's in the 1950's.

 

[jimm]

Carrying by rail had displaced the carrying of fish, most likely dried or pickled, by slow road vehicles, but the advent of the motor lorry gradually took back fish transport from the 1920s onwards and the remaining rail-carrying of fish was discontinued by BR on the Eastern Region in the mid-1970s.

A small amount of fish was still being carried between Wick and Aberdeen until 1981. There are a couple of photos taken in 1980 in Diesels on the Regions: Scottish Region, by Tom Noble (Oxford Publishing Co, 1984). A single insulfish van was included in the evening train south from Wick and Thurso, immediately behind the locomotive. The van spent the night at Inverness then was attached to the first dmu service to Aberdeen the next morning. Nothing was said about how the empty vans were returned to Wick.

There is also a mention of this operation on the railcar.co.uk website https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/?page=page-02

Keith Bathgate notes that "while most fish traffic ceased about 1968, BR carried fish traffic between Wick and Aberdeen until 1981. It seems a VFW 'Blue Spot' Insulfish van would be dispatched from Wick on the evening passenger train to Inverness and taken onwards to Aberdeen on the first train next morning. North of Inverness was Type 2 territory at the time (the van was marshalled immediately behind the locomotive(s)), but the Inverness-Aberdeen service was usually operated by Class 120 DMUs. A picture of the second leg of this journey (dating from 1979) is on page 188 of Brian Morrison's book 'British Rail DMUs and Diesel Rail Cars: Origins and First Generation Stock' (Ian Allan 1998). It shows a blue/grey class 120 set and a blue class 122 single car, with the fish van bringing up the rear".

 

[John Webb]

A small amount of fish was still being carried between Wick and Aberdeen until 1981. There are a couple of photos taken in 1980 in Diesels on the Regions: Scottish Region, by Tom Noble (Oxford Publishing Co, 1984). A single insulfish van was included in the evening train south from Wick and Thurso, immediately behind the locomotive. The van spent the night at Inverness then was attached to the first dmu service to Aberdeen the next morning. Nothing was said about how the empty vans were returned to Wick.

There is also a mention of this operation on the railcar.co.uk website https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/?page=page-02

Interesting - but that was of course the Scottish Region rather than the Eastern Region of BR that I mentioned. Clearly something organised locally, probably, I would think, due to the distances involved?

 

[Gloster]

A small amount of fish was still being carried between Wick and Aberdeen until 1981. There are a couple of photos taken in 1980 in Diesels on the Regions: Scottish Region, by Tom Noble (Oxford Publishing Co, 1984). A single insulfish van was included in the evening train south from Wick and Thurso, immediately behind the locomotive. The van spent the night at Inverness then was attached to the first dmu service to Aberdeen the next morning. Nothing was said about how the empty vans were returned to Wick.

There is also a mention of this operation on the railcar.co.uk website https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/?page=page-02

I think that the van went back empty in the normal Far North goods train, as I have seen several photos from that era with a fish van in the train. In the summer of 1977 I was railrovering Scotland and came back south on the evening train to Inverness, which at the head had a fish van shedding loads of water as it was a warm evening. After a night spent in a carriage (I think) in Inverness, I caught the first train to Keith. I decided to sit in the rear seats to watch the line wind out behind the train, but failed to notice that the DMU was coupled to the fish van on the stops, rather than just up against it: I did not see much.

 

[jimm]

Interesting - but that was of course the Scottish Region rather than the Eastern Region of BR that I mentioned. Clearly something organised locally, probably, I would think, due to the distances involved?

If the article linked to below is to be believed, the only fish traffic left on the Eastern Region into the 1970s came from Scotland, in the shape of a train from Aberdeen to London, running Monday to Saturday, until 1976.

BloodandCustard - Fish by rail - Blue Spot fish vans

Western Region fish traffic in insulated vans from Milford Haven apparently ended in 1977, with some fish then carried in parcels vans until 1981, according to posts in this thread on RMweb

Blue Spot Fish Vans in the west country

Hello everyone, Does anybody have any knowledge of blue spot fish vans appearing in Devon or Somerset around the mid to late 1960s? I'm thinking primarily of parcels traffic, but I'd be interested to know if they appeared on other workings too. David Larkin's most recent tome seems to suggest tha...

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[weepingwillowb]

Not really what the OP was asking about, but I've come across this report of the transportation of 2,000 live fish from Stirling to Brock, between Preston and Lancaster, in late February 1891.

​

 

[Harvester]

According to "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Biddle and Simmons, OUP, 1997) the earliest transport of fish by railway was in the mid-1840s. The first major traffic was to Manchester from Hartlepool and Hull and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (L&YR) was particularly active in developing this traffic.

I can remember from my childhood days the surviving Hartlepool fish train which ceased running in the early 1960s, although by that time it was usually just a single van. A J72 0-6-0T would take the fish from Hartlepool Quay to West Hartlepool along the long closed line via Throston, Cemetery South and West Junctions. The fish van or vans, would later be attached to the evening Sunderland-Dringhouses pick-up freight. It is quite interesting and surprising that this particular working survived for so long.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Looking at histories of some of the earliest railways there is tantalisingly little reference to any fish traffic, even among some 'obvious suspects'.

The Oystermouth Railway (aka Swansea & Mumbles) was nothing to do with oysters - the name coming from a partial anglicisation of the Welsh "Ystum(llwyn)arth". The definitive history suggests that the planned mineral traffic barely materialised and it only survived by developing the first passenger traffic until it closed following building of a parallel turnpike road and the introduction of a 'rail replacement omnibus' service in around 1826.

The Canterbury & Whitstable Railway opened in 1830, from Whitstable Harbour but its freight was almost entirely coal, imported by sea, for Canterbury, and no early mentions of fish.

One of the better candidates might be the Kilmarnock & Troon Railway, which unlike most early plateways and waggonways was definitely used by 'all freight' rather than only coal. A report of around 1839 noted that it handled as much as 70,000 tons of non-coal traffic. It might plausibly inferred that some of this would have been sea fish from Troon to inland Kilmarnock but I haven't found a specific reference, even in C J A Robertson's The Origins of the Scottish Railway System 1722-1844.

Other lines such as the Arbroath & Forfar, the Ardrossan & Johnstone and the Dundee & Newtyle are also bereft of piscine citations.