First Solent discussion (Portsmouth, Fareham and Gosport)

[DaveHarries]

Mod note: Split from the First General Discussion thread

Regarding First Solent (Portsmouth) the registrations today for bus services in the Western Traffic Area include cancellation of Portsmouth services 13, 14, 22 and 25 wef 30-Jul-2023.

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/browse/results/?fields%5Bstatus%5D=&fields%5BacceptedDate%5D=2023-05-09&fields%5BtrafficAreas%5D%5B0%5D=G&fields%5BtrafficAreas%5D%5B1%5D=D&fields%5BtrafficAreas%5D%5B2%5D=H&security=21f0e1a2ff308ebed6ad9f53e35c8ead-4ef0ad78150cdb3b8cfa7d83468da166&form-actions%5Bsubmit%5D=

Dave

 

[Nammer]

Very odd. The First Solent 13/14 and 22 were just re-tendered in April 2023. Must've been a very short tender!

 

[Man of Kent]

Very odd. The First Solent 13/14 and 22 were just re-tendered in April 2023. Must've been a very short tender!

That's the substantive tender, for operations to take over at the end of July. Existing contracts were extended to allow for this.

 

[pompeyfan]

The Portsmouth News have been reporting that Stagecoach have won some of the tenders, although I’ve seen a staff notice from one of the companies advises that Stagecoach will now operate all but the 22.

Three year deal signed which will secure a future for six Portsmouth bus routes

Six Portsmouth bus services are in line for new three-year contracts with council subsidised used to secure their future.

www.portsmouth.co.uk

The contracts for the 12; 13 and 14; 18; 22; and 25 services will all run from September 3 this year until September 5, 2026. Few details of the contracts have been made public but Cllr Vernon-Jackson said the 25 and 18 routes would switch from First Bus to Stagecoach with the latter requiring a smaller subsidy and having more suitable buses. He added that Stagecoach was less badly affected by recruitment issues and that the switch would reduce the number of cancellations.

 

[fgwrich]

The Portsmouth News have been reporting that Stagecoach have won some of the tenders, although I’ve seen a staff notice from one of the companies advises that Stagecoach will now operate all but the 22.

Three year deal signed which will secure a future for six Portsmouth bus routes

Six Portsmouth bus services are in line for new three-year contracts with council subsidised used to secure their future.

www.portsmouth.co.uk

Quite a chunk of routes transferring over then. Surprised they didn't take the 22 as well as it's right on the doorstep of their depot. Going on the basis of this route map, it'll leave First with only 8 routes + the Park and Ride and 2 D routes.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/maps/Portsmouth%20Summer_tourism_leaflet%20-%2024pp%20DL%20Leaflet%20-%20Summer%2022%20-%20WEB_0.pdf

 

[baza585]

That's the substantive tender, for operations to take over at the end of July. Existing contracts were extended to allow for this.

Interestingly the new tenders start from September. Not sure what happens in between.........

 

[Lynford1976]

Quite a chunk of routes transferring over then. Surprised they didn't take the 22 as well as it's right on the doorstep of their depot. Going on the basis of this route map, it'll leave First with only 8 routes + the Park and Ride and 2 D routes.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/maps/Portsmouth%20Summer_tourism_leaflet%20-%2024pp%20DL%20Leaflet%20-%20Summer%2022%20-%20WEB_0.pdf

That map doesn't include the routes in the Gosport and Fareham areas though, including the Eclipse BRT service.

 

[fgwrich]

That map doesn't include the routes in the Gosport and Fareham areas though, including the Eclipse BRT service.

True, but I was focusing on Portsmouth itself rather than the wider Portsmouth area.

 

[pompeyfan]

Interestingly the new tenders start from September. Not sure what happens in between.........

First continue to operate as normal until September. It’ll give Stagecoach a chance to organise the PVR and driver uplift.

 

[baza585]

First continue to operate as normal until September. It’ll give Stagecoach a chance to organise the PVR and driver uplift.

Anything interesting expected?

 

[pompeyfan]

Anything interesting expected?

Not a clue I’m afraid, probably some euro 6 compliant E200s, with some First 10.8 Streetlites heading out to somewhere like BoS

 

[Mal]

This looks as if it another Southampton-style winding down for First. If so, how long does anyone think First can keep going? I'm thinking Bluestar could maybe expand toward Fareham and eastwards.

 

[buslad1988]

This looks as if it another Southampton-style winding down for First. If so, how long does anyone think First can keep going? I'm thinking Bluestar could maybe expand toward Fareham and eastwards.

Surely that’s a bit dramatic isn’t it? It might look a lot on paper but won’t equate to a huge amount of work being lost altogether. There’s still the commercial network and don’t they have a batch of electrics on order?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This looks as if it another Southampton-style winding down for First. If so, how long does anyone think First can keep going? I'm thinking Bluestar could maybe expand toward Fareham and eastwards.

I'm not certain how you get to that conclusion? Stagecoach are going very hard at tenders across the country and First are struggling to resource their operations. Don't think you can equate it to Southampton.

 

[PTR 444]

This looks as if it another Southampton-style winding down for First. If so, how long does anyone think First can keep going? I'm thinking Bluestar could maybe expand toward Fareham and eastwards.

First still operate the following services within Portsmouth and Fareham:

• 1 Portsmouth - Southsea
• E1/E2 Fareham - Gosport
• 2 Portsmouth - QA Hospital
• 3 Southsea - Fareham
• X4 Southampton - Fareham - Portsmouth
• X5 Southampton - Fareham - Gosport
• 7 Portsmouth - Wecock Farm
• 8 Portsmouth - Clanfield
• 9/9A Fareham - Rowner - Gosport
• 11 Fareham - Gosport - Alverstoke
• 20 Fareham - Wickham
• 22 Cosham town service
• 28/28A Fareham - Whiteley
• F1/F2/F3 Fareham town services

So hardly a huge winding down there, although Fareham weirdly will hold the distinction of being served by more First routes than Portsmouth.

 

[pompeyfan]

First only recently committed to building a new depot in Portsmouth and have an electric fleet being relieved in the autumn for a lot of the services as well. I don’t think they’re going anywhere any time soon.

First also operate the D1/D2 and 27 for Hampshire County Council.

 

[baza585]

Not a clue I’m afraid, probably some euro 6 compliant E200s, with some First 10.8 Streetlites heading out to somewhere like BoS

Thanks. I guess not all the routes need Euro6 stock but it would make life easier at Farlington if Euro 6 buses could be acquired. Ironically First have kept the 22 which is the only one of the tendered routes anywhere near the Stagecoach depot. Not surprised it is a nightmare to operate I think.

Are all the new Coastliners in service yet?

 

[Andyh82]

Surely that’s a bit dramatic isn’t it? It might look a lot on paper but won’t equate to a huge amount of work being lost altogether. There’s still the commercial network and don’t they have a batch of electrics on order?

I agree

Second time this week a relatively minor reduction by First has been blown out of all proportion in threads here

 

[Towers]

It’s not unreasonable to highlight small cracks in the armour, though. Stagecoach’s presence in the city has been largely stagnant for decades, a sudden winning of tenders could signal a more ambitious approach to what has always been pretty much a ‘status quo’ cohabitation. Plus it’s reasonable to assume that a number of Hilsea’s driving staff may find their way to Farlington, which even with a loss of some work is likely to be bad news for First, who advertise for recruitment at Hilsea & Hoeford pretty much constantly. As for the investment in new fleets and premises, absolutely that suggests that current views see a long term future and that’s very welcome, but Empress Road was hardly an old facility and Southampton had freshly liveried deckers (not brand news ones, admittedly) being delivered weeks before the plug was pulled! However you frame it, this is an interesting development.

 

[pompeyfan]

It’s not unreasonable to highlight small cracks in the armour, though. Stagecoach’s presence in the city has been largely stagnant for decades, a sudden winning of tenders could signal a more ambitious approach to what has always been pretty much a ‘status quo’ cohabitation. Plus it’s reasonable to assume that a number of Hilsea’s driving staff may find their way to Farlington, which even with a loss of some work is likely to be bad news for First, who advertise for recruitment at Hilsea & Hoeford pretty much constantly. As for the investment in new fleets and premises, absolutely that suggests that current views see a long term future and that’s very welcome, but Empress Road was hardly an old facility and Southampton had freshly liveried deckers (not brand news ones, admittedly) being delivered weeks before the plug was pulled! However you frame it, this is an interesting development.

Agreed it is interesting, certainly a rocking of the boat. I believe Stagecoach have enough ex-First drivers they don’t actually need to do any route learning on the new tenders!

There is a considerable amount of agency drivers at Hilsea so I would imagine their work would just not be extended.

Thanks. I guess not all the routes need Euro6 stock but it would make life easier at Farlington if Euro 6 buses could be acquired. Ironically First have kept the 22 which is the only one of the tendered routes anywhere near the Stagecoach depot. Not surprised it is a nightmare to operate I think.

Are all the new Coastliners in service yet?

I think it’s just the 13, 14 and 25 that actually enter the clean air zone, but like you say, from an allocation point of view im sure it would be easier to draft in a batch of compliant buses.

Im not sure about the coastliners i’m afraid.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Portsmouth and Fareham are one of the few First subsidiaries outside of the big three of Bristol, Glasgow and Leeds to see regular investment in new vehicles, I'd be very surprised if they were considered vulnerable!

 

[Towers]

Portsmouth and Fareham are one of the few First subsidiaries outside of the big three of Bristol, Glasgow and Leeds to see regular investment in new vehicles, I'd be very surprised if they were considered vulnerable!

The main driver for those new vehicles though has always tended to be the operation of the Clanfield route (originally operated as the ‘ZIP’ branded 41 when the new priority bus route was opened over Portsdown Hill), and more recently the Gosport - Fareham Eclipse BRT route. Admittedly I’ve no idea what the contract, if any, says nowadays, but initially the ‘ZIP’ required new vehicles every five years or so, hence the 54 plate Omnicity fleet and their replacement with 09 plate Volvos. It was then rebranded to ‘The Star’ and the reign of the lightweight plastic stuff started, but the fleet is still renewed periodically. However, prior to all of this the Portsmouth operations were as down in the doldrums as anywhere else, arguably worse than some areas, and it would be difficult to imagine that the operation is more profitable now than it was when the urban fleets comprised utterly knackered Iveco & Merc minibuses being run on a shoestring, with some of the drivers being paid less to drive them. Once the initial big mid-90s Barbie intake had settled down, there were always plenty of old bangers and cast-offs on their last legs knocking about alongside any shiny new stuff.

I’ve no desire to see First leave the area, but I would imagine a bit of aggro from a newly re-energised Stagecoach would probably do it.

 

[Volvodart]

They made a decent profit in the last filed accounts, considering that there were supposedly losses from the Southampton operation contained therein.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It’s not unreasonable to highlight small cracks in the armour, though. Stagecoach’s presence in the city has been largely stagnant for decades, a sudden winning of tenders could signal a more ambitious approach to what has always been pretty much a ‘status quo’ cohabitation. Plus it’s reasonable to assume that a number of Hilsea’s driving staff may find their way to Farlington, which even with a loss of some work is likely to be bad news for First, who advertise for recruitment at Hilsea & Hoeford pretty much constantly. As for the investment in new fleets and premises, absolutely that suggests that current views see a long term future and that’s very welcome, but Empress Road was hardly an old facility and Southampton had freshly liveried deckers (not brand news ones, admittedly) being delivered weeks before the plug was pulled! However you frame it, this is an interesting development.

Think people are reading too much into this.

Remember that Southampton was the subject of a long and protracted strategy from Go Ahead based on the bedrock of the Uni work that underpinned everything else. That's not the case in Portsmouth.

Instead, what you're seeing is something that Stagecoach are pursuing across the country. They are being very aggressive on getting tendered work as a means of covering existing depot overheads that are now higher, and were being spread over fewer vehicles with reduced post Covid PVRs. For instance. in the last year, Stagecoach has also:

• Won back tendered work in Devon that had been won by Go Ahead/Dartline
• Moved into areas of North Tyneside that were never Stagecoach territory (e.g. Whitley Bay) at the expense of Go Ahead
• Won the Bristol Park and Ride services (now linked as service 9) plus a few other wins at the expense of Big Lemon (who'd taken on work after CT Plus collapsed)
• Won tendered work in south Birmingham and Coventry surrendered or in regular tender round from National Express
• Won tendered work in Warwickshire, largely wiping out the former Johnsons business that Rotala had bought
• Won tendered work in East Cleveland and from Hartlepool into Co Durham, hitherto Arriva territory

Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Hoeford depot has started electrifying for the upcoming 62 Kites on order

First Solent begins electric bus preparation at Hoeford depot - routeone

Battery-electric bus operation is slated to commence operation from the First Solent depot at Hoeford during March 2024.

www.route-one.net

First Solent begins electric bus preparation at Hoeford depot​

Battery-electric bus operation from the First Solent depot at Hoeford will start during March 2024, the operator has said. It comes as work has commenced on infrastructure to support the 62-strong Wrightbus GB Kite Electroliner fleet that is on order.

The shift at Hoeford represents one of a number of battery-electric projects begun by First Bus following successful local authority bids to the first round of the Zero Emission Bus Regional Areas scheme (ZEBRA 1) in England. Such overhaul has already begun in Leeds, Leicester, Norwich and York, with Wrightbus providing vehicles in each instance.

For Hoeford, Hampshire County Council and Portsmouth City Council secured £12.7 million from ZEBRA 1. First Bus is making a parallel investment of around £15.9 million.

The buses involved will run across Fareham, Gosport, and Portsmouth. Routes to be served by the new fleet include those using the Eclipse bus rapid transit corridor between Fareham and Gosport, and the X4 and X5 that reach Southampton.

To support the work, representatives from both local authorities involved attended Hoeford depot to mark the commencement of infrastructure development there. First Solent has confirmed that once electric bus rollout is complete, it will continue to run a small number of diesel buses from Hoeford.

First Bus South Managing Director Simon Goff (pictured, centre) says that introduction of zero-emission buses at Hoeford “is a vital project that will not only improve travel for our customers, but marks a major transformation of our Hoeford depot and its functions.”

He adds: “This is just the start, and there are exciting times ahead for public transport across the Solent area. I am proud to be part of this extremely important partnership with Hampshire County Council and Portsmouth City Council as we support their plans for better air quality and cleaner, greener travel.”

Earlier this year, First Solent purchased land at Hilsea adjacent to its existing depot there. Work at that location will eventually see the new site able to operate up to 90 battery-electric buses.

Meanwhile, the first battery-electric Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners for First Norwich are expected to enter service soon. They will run from Roundtree Way depot in the city, which will be converted entirely to battery-electric with 70 Wrightbus models by March 2024.

Rollout of ZEBRA-funded battery-electrics in Leicester and York is well underway. In Leeds, depot work began in August ahead of the first of 57 buses entering service. In total, First Bus will receive 310 battery-electric buses that are part-funded by ZEBRA 1.

 

[MasterSpenny]

According to buslistsontheweb.co.uk, a lot of the Kite Electroliner registrations have been identified. (This should have been posted way earlier by the way, I am behind on some of the chains).

Fleet Code	Registration Plate
63601	BK73AMX
63602	BK73ANF
63603	BK73ANP
63604	BK73ANR
63605	BK73ANU
63606	BK73ANV
63607	BK73ANX
63608	BK73AOA
63609	BK73AOB
63610	BK73AOC
63611	BK73AOD
63612	BK73AOE
63613	BK73AOF
63614	BK73AOG
63615	BK73AOH
63616	BK73AOJ
63617	BK73AOL
63618	BJ73WVC
63619	BJ73WVD
63620	BJ73WVE
63621	BJ73WVF
63622	BJ73WVG
63623	BJ73WVH
63670	LY73BYH
63671	LY73BYJ
63672	LY73BYK
63673	LY73BYL

 

[Edvid]

At least one of the Kites is in service now, judging by this Flickr pic:

63602 BK73ANF

Explore PD3.'s 32995 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[jbarnes2756]

It’s not unreasonable to highlight small cracks in the armour, though. Stagecoach’s presence in the city has been largely stagnant for decades, a sudden winning of tenders could signal a more ambitious approach to what has always been pretty much a ‘status quo’ cohabitation. Plus it’s reasonable to assume that a number of Hilsea’s driving staff may find their way to Farlington, which even with a loss of some work is likely to be bad news for First, who advertise for recruitment at Hilsea & Hoeford pretty much constantly. As for the investment in new fleets and premises, absolutely that suggests that current views see a long term future and that’s very welcome, but Empress Road was hardly an old facility and Southampton had freshly liveried deckers (not brand news ones, admittedly) being delivered weeks before the plug was pulled! However you frame it, this is an interesting development.

Sorry it’s a really late response but after speaking to a First driver last week, I found out that First haven’t been losing as many drivers as we may have thought. They may soon be at a point where they can no longer hire in the Solent region because all their employees are staying. Once again sorry for the late response

 

[vla50]

Does anyone know what the plan is for the 3 E400s from Portsmouth? I’m thinking they’ll go to Weymouth once the Streetdecks enter service in Portsmouth, but might be wrong on that?

Then that’d enable 3 B9s to have their roofs removed (presumably the 3 non branded ones from Pompey) as replacements for the Portland Coasters.

Would be interesting to see what else comes in (I’m thinking the rest of the Pompey B9s?) to replace the B7 OTs. As part of the fleet standardisation occurring across First, is Weymouth going to be fully closed top E400s?

 

[Jamesbus80]

Hi all,

In the latest notices and proceedings…

PH0006159 SN FIRST HAMPSHIRE & DORSET LIMITED
Director(s): COLIN BROWN, SIMON IAN GOFF, Andrew Jarvis
HOEFORD, GOSPORT ROAD, FAREHAM, PO16 0ST
New operating centre: AMAZON WORLD ZOO PARK, WATERY LANE, NEWCHURCH, SANDOWN, PO36 0LX
New authorisation at this operating centre will be: 10 vehicle(s)

Any ideas?
Island Line isn’t due to be shut any time soon (except planned work on the pier, which will close it for a number of months, but a half hourly train service is still running…)