First time contactless payment in London

[CaptainHaddock]

I'm off to London this saturday and have a query about using contactless payment in London for the first time.

My query is probably a very naive one: if I make several tube journeys on Saturday within zones 1 to 3, tapping my contactless bank card in and out each time, does the system automatically "cap" my total fares for the day at £7.70 or will it charge me per single fare? In other words, how does the system know I want a one day travelcard rather than paying individual fares for each journey?

 

[najaB]

You aren't charged anything until the end of the day. Then the system goes though all you touches for the day and works out how much to charge you.

If you've hit the cap them that's all you will be charged.

 

[Polarbear]

I'm off to London this saturday and have a query about using contactless payment in London for the first time.

My query is probably a very naive one: if I make several tube journeys on Saturday within zones 1 to 3, tapping my contactless bank card in and out each time, does the system automatically "cap" my total fares for the day at £7.70 or will it charge me per single fare? In other words, how does the system know I want a one day travelcard rather than paying individual fares for each journey?

If you've registered your card with TfL, you'll be able to print off your itinerary after your trip out. What you'll find is that it adds up the single fares & when you get to the cap, it'll just charge a reduced amount for the last journey that takes you up to the cap.

In addition, it will adjust for bus & rail journeys, or where you happen to travel out of say zone 4, into zones 5 & 6.

One handy feature I found when I was last down in London was the "hoppa" fare on buses. Basically, if you make two separate bus journeys and the second journey starts within an hour of you starting the first journey, you only get charged one fare of £1.50. The second journey will show as a nil fare on your statement.

I've not had any issues since I started using contact less in London, but there are a couple of things to watch. If you plan on staying on a station for any length of time, beware as you may exceed the 90 minute "tap out" rule.

 

[duncanp]

The single fare on a contactless is card is £2.40 for Zone 1 only, or Zones 1 - 2, and £2.80 for Zones 1 - 3. For zone 2 or zone 3 only, or for zones 2 - 3, it is £1.70.

The system will record the journeys you make and the relevant zones. At the end of the day, which is actually after 04:30 on Sunday in your case, it will add up the cost of all your journeys and apply the cap if appropriate. You will only see one charge on your card statement.

If you use a bus, it will cost £1.50, and you only have to tap in, not out. Furthermore, if you tap in on a second bus within an hour of tapping in on the first bus, you will not be charged. Bus journeys count towards the overall cap.

 

[me123]

I've used contactless, mostly by way of my iPhone. It works brilliantly. If you do have Apple Pay, you have the added benefit of a visual display confirming a tap-in and tap-out. It also lets you see how the system works. Each time you tap in and out, my phone registers a 0 transaction at each individual station. At the end of the day, usually in the wee hours of the next morning, TfL will debit your account with the appropriate charge, and will cap daily. I would assume that the weekly cap works in a similar fashion. This will be the same process that happens with the card (just, in the background). As pointed out by Polarbear, you can register your card and track it.

Your card will cap fares in essentially the same way as Oyster. Here's the fare table (which you've clearly already seen). You don't need to do anything, and it's always worked brilliantly for me. One thing to note - if you have multiple cards on the same account (for example an iPhone and a bank card, or two bank cards on a joint account), you should use the same card each time to tap in and out - even if it is the same account, the TfL system won't be able to differentiate. Also, if you're "bashing", you'll find the time limits on journeys could be detrimental, and it may be better to buy a paper travel card (this is not as much of an issue for "normal" travel).

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Thanks all for the advice.

 

[Hadders]

Couple of things:

- make sure you always touch in and touch out. If you don't you'll get charged a maximum fare even if you've already reached the cap. (You don't need to touch out on buses or trams).
- technically you can't get a one day travelcard on contactless or Oyster PAYG. You get charged the relevant cap. A small difference but in certain situations it can make a difference (eg. if going outside of the zones with a paper travelcard you can use a Boundary Zone ticket, you can't do this with Contactless)

 

[simple simon]

Hello,

I've never used contactless, as I've had Oyster cards since before the contactless started being accepted. But the general theme is very similar.

re: journey durations, these vary depending on the zones you travel through and how you travel. To avoid problems when train spotting I have sometimes left a station and then either within a few minutes re-entered it or touched-in on a bus (without travelling!) and then re-entered the station.

The reason for such seemingly bizarre actions is that some stations are what are known as 'out of station' interchanges (OSI) and at these you can exit the fares paid area and then a short while later re-enter the fares paid area with the system then treating this as a single journey which is charged a single through fare.

This is great if you want to change trains, say between mainline and underground at a major London terminus, but not so good if you want to reset the clock on your journey duration.

Below are some links which will explain the situation more fully and also detail the OSI station pairs / groups.

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/interchanging-trains/

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/osi-list/

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/maximum-journey-times/

Also, when passing through ticket gates allow at least a second (if not two) between the person in front of you removing their card from the yellow card reader touch pad and you placing your card on the card reader touch pad. This is because sometimes when people go through too closely to each other the gates may still open even though the data exchange transaction with the second person's card has not been successful. This scenario especially arises when many passengers are touching out. I've had this happen to me a few times but I've always spotted it and with the assistance of a member of staff station been able to resolve it.

Although card reads take just milliseconds, when there are hordes of passengers (especially commuters) trying to pass through the gates as quickly as possible it is still possible to be 'too quick' for the system!

Enjoy your visit

Simon

 

[Joe Paxton]

The 'OSI danger issue' (so to speak) as described above by simple simon is not an issue when using contactless, because if necessary journeys are split up into two by the central database.

(Oyster, in its current incarnation, makes these decisions 'on the card' rather than on the database, hence the potential to encounter such issues. 'Bashers' etc, given their travel patterns, are rather more likely to encounter said issues!)

 

[Panda]

Hello,

I've never used contactless, as I've had Oyster cards since before the contactless started being accepted. But the general theme is very similar.

re: journey durations, these vary depending on the zones you travel through and how you travel. To avoid problems when train spotting I have sometimes left a station and then either within a few minutes re-entered it or touched-in on a bus (without travelling!) and then re-entered the station.

The reason for such seemingly bizarre actions is that some stations are what are known as 'out of station' interchanges (OSI) and at these you can exit the fares paid area and then a short while later re-enter the fares paid area with the system then treating this as a single journey which is charged a single through fare.

This is great if you want to change trains, say between mainline and underground at a major London terminus, but not so good if you want to reset the clock on your journey duration.

Below are some links which will explain the situation more fully and also detail the OSI station pairs / groups.

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/interchanging-trains/

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/osi-list/

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/maximum-journey-times/

Also, when passing through ticket gates allow at least a second (if not two) between the person in front of you removing their card from the yellow card reader touch pad and you placing your card on the card reader touch pad. This is because sometimes when people go through too closely to each other the gates may still open even though the data exchange transaction with the second person's card has not been successful. This scenario especially arises when many passengers are touching out. I've had this happen to me a few times but I've always spotted it and with the assistance of a member of staff station been able to resolve it.

Although card reads take just milliseconds, when there are hordes of passengers (especially commuters) trying to pass through the gates as quickly as possible it is still possible to be 'too quick' for the system!

Enjoy your visit

Simon

The OSI issue is mostly a limitation of how Oyster works and doesn't affect contactless.

On contactless, if you have a missing tap, you can just log in online or phone up to correct your journey (subject to limitations to avoid abuse, but definitely possible if you make a one-off mistake).

 

[MikeWh]

On contactless, if you have a missing tap, you can just log in online or phone up to correct your journey (subject to limitations to avoid abuse, but definitely possible if you make a one-off mistake).

You can complete an incomplete journey on Oyster online as well, subject to the same limitations which I think is once a month. You can phone up and discuss corrections whenever they occur, though you may need a good explanation if you do it too frequently.

 

[urbophile]

Is it possible to apply the Railcard discount to a contactless card, or does that only work with Oyster?

 

[infobleep]

Is it possible to apply the Railcard discount to a contactless card, or does that only work with Oyster?

It only works with Oyster.

 

[infobleep]

You can complete an incomplete journey on Oyster online as well, subject to the same limitations which I think is once a month. You can phone up and discuss corrections whenever they occur, though you may need a good explanation if you do it too frequently.

Is u still the case yacht people with railcards added to their Oyster card cannot complete incomplete journeys online?

 

[MikeWh]

Is u still the case yacht people with railcards added to their Oyster card cannot complete incomplete journeys online?

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but quite what a small boat has to do with it only you know!!

I have heard that only adult full fare incomplete journeys can be sorted out online, but I'm not aware whether that is actually the case. It wouldn't surprise me though.

 

[island]

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but quite what a small boat has to do with it only you know!!

I have heard that only adult full fare incomplete journeys can be sorted out online, but I'm not aware whether that is actually the case. It wouldn't surprise me though.

I've sorted an incomplete journey online once and I have a Railcard discount, so it can be done.

 

[MikeWh]

I've sorted an incomplete journey online once and I have a Railcard discount, so it can be done.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[simple simon]

It only works with Oyster.

What is planned is that you associate your railcard discount (as an electronic token) with your TfL travel account, as that way you will benefit from the discount.

I am not sure but think that the new system will start in January 2018. At the same time older Oyster cards which do NOT have a letter D in a blue box on their backs will stop working and if my understanding is correct other Oyster cards will start working on the same back-office principle as contactless cards.

It will also then be possible to use season tickets with contactless devices, as again the electronic token for the season ticket will be held at the back office and with all fares being calculated in the TfL back office computers your chosen contactless device will only act as a personal identifier when you use ticket gates.

One thing I do not know is whether the same regulations regarding season ticket holders not needing to touch in / out (eg: at open stations and at boundary stations if using split tickets) will apply the using back office system.

I suspect that the planned mainline railway revamp of ticketing and how tickets are retailed (which was in the news a few weeks ago) also acts as a first stage in a long-term plan to seriously curtail - if not completely end - the use of split tickets. On some routes this will likely affect Underground passengers too.

The older Oystercards no longer working will be because they use an older less secure encryption technology which in Holland had been hacked! I hope that people with these will be able to get free replacements, but think that anonymous cards will cease as I suspect that TfL's back office will want everyone to have named travel accounts which also make all journeys personally trackable / traceable so that the police will always be able to know who travelled where and when. From what I have read in the media I understand that it is already a legal requirement that ITSO smartcards are personally identifiable. It might be that some Oystercards will still be shareable, even though they have a named card holder. I have an old Visitor card which I bought on a Eurostar train and I would rather cease using it than give it up.

But plans might change... especially if the Mayor's freeze on fares derails TfL's finances and certain other possible financial happenings come to pass.

Simon

 

[MikeWh]

What is planned is that you associate your railcard discount (as an electronic token) with your TfL travel account, as that way you will benefit from the discount.

I am not sure but think that the new system will start in January 2018. At the same time older Oyster cards which do NOT have a letter D in a blue box on their backs will stop working and if my understanding is correct other Oyster cards will start working on the same back-office principle as contactless cards.

It will also then be possible to use season tickets with contactless devices, as again the electronic token for the season ticket will be held at the back office and with all fares being calculated in the TfL back office computers your chosen contactless device will only act as a personal identifier when you use ticket gates.

One thing I do not know is whether the same regulations regarding season ticket holders not needing to touch in / out (eg: at open stations and at boundary stations if using split tickets) will apply the using back office system.

I suspect that the planned mainline railway revamp of ticketing and how tickets are retailed (which was in the news a few weeks ago) also acts as a first stage in a long-term plan to seriously curtail - if not completely end - the use of split tickets. On some routes this will likely affect Underground passengers too.

The older Oystercards no longer working will be because they use an older less secure encryption technology which in Holland had been hacked! I hope that people with these will be able to get free replacements, but think that anonymous cards will cease as I suspect that TfL's back office will want everyone to have named travel accounts which also make all journeys personally trackable / traceable so that the police will always be able to know who travelled where and when. From what I have read in the media I understand that it is already a legal requirement that ITSO smartcards are personally identifiable. It might be that some Oystercards will still be shareable, even though they have a named card holder. I have an old Visitor card which I bought on a Eurostar train and I would rather cease using it than give it up.

But plans might change... especially if the Mayor's freeze on fares derails TfL's finances and certain other possible financial happenings come to pass.

Simon

That's an interesting read.

I can certainly concur about season tickets being associated with contactless cards in that way. Railcards are a little trickier because the RPI needs something at the time of checking the card which says that a railcard should be held so that it can be checked.

The newer Oyster cards can still be held anonymously so I'm not sure how effective switching to registered only might be. Forcing all commuters to touch in/out at stations with only a couple of validators would also be problematic.

Do you have a link to anywhere that mentions a Jan 2018 rollout?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Well my trip to London on Saturday went fine. In the end I only made two single journeys on the Underground, I've just checked my TfL account and as I didn't hit the cap I've just been charged £5.20. Thanks all for the helpful advice once more.

One interesting point though, which I'm sure must have cropped up before. Technically if you're using Contactless payment then you're travelling without a ticket, so I'd be intrigued to know if hypothetically you could be hit with a penalty fare if an inspector isn't convinced you've tapped into the network using a contactless card, for example at a station where there are no ticket barriers or they've been left open. Could this happen?

 

[Mike395]

One interesting point though, which I'm sure must have cropped up before. Technically if you're using Contactless payment then you're travelling without a ticket, so I'd be intrigued to know if hypothetically you could be hit with a penalty fare if an inspector isn't convinced you've tapped into the network using a contactless card, for example at a station where there are no ticket barriers or they've been left open. Could this happen?

If an inspector touches any CPC it'll be read as valid at the time (regardless of whether it's been touched in or not). The RPI's device will sync with a computer back at base, and check to see if the same card was touched in on that bus (the inspector 'touches in' with their device on boarding, so the device knows which bus it's on when checking tickets). If not, a maximum fare is charged to that card, and (I think?) the card is permanently blacklisted if it happens 3 times.

 

[najaB]

...I'd be intrigued to know if hypothetically you could be hit with a penalty fare if an inspector isn't convinced you've tapped into the network using a contactless card, for example at a station where there are no ticket barriers or they've been left open. Could this happen?

That means you'd be presumed to be guilty without any evidence to support that position. I suppose it could happen, but I would expect the appeal to be upheld.

 

[MikeWh]

One interesting point though, which I'm sure must have cropped up before. Technically if you're using Contactless payment then you're travelling without a ticket, so I'd be intrigued to know if hypothetically you could be hit with a penalty fare if an inspector isn't convinced you've tapped into the network using a contactless card, for example at a station where there are no ticket barriers or they've been left open. Could this happen?

If an inspector touches any CPC it'll be read as valid at the time (regardless of whether it's been touched in or not). The RPI's device will sync with a computer back at base, and check to see if the same card was touched in on that bus (the inspector 'touches in' with their device on boarding, so the device knows which bus it's on when checking tickets). If not, a maximum fare is charged to that card, and (I think?) the card is permanently blacklisted if it happens 3 times.

Not quite.

On trains the device will confirm if the card is a working and non-blacklisted CPC. Later on the central system will confirm whether you were touched in to the system at the time. If not you get a maximum charge and yes, do it three times and the card is blacklisted.

On buses the device is loaded with a list of CPCs from the bus machine when the inspector boards. If you're not on that list then it's a penalty fare at the time.

That means you'd be presumed to be guilty without any evidence to support that position. I suppose it could happen, but I would expect the appeal to be upheld.

No no no.

 

[Mike395]

On buses the device is loaded with a list of CPCs from the bus machine when the inspector boards. If you're not on that list then it's a penalty fare at the time.

Has that always been the case - I'm sure when CPC was first rolled out, all the card processing was done centrally for buses too? (Then again, I could be wrong :P )

 

[PhilipRhayader]

That's an interesting read.

I can certainly concur about season tickets being associated with contactless cards in that way. Railcards are a little trickier because the RPI needs something at the time of checking the card which says that a railcard should be held so that it can be checked.

The newer Oyster cards can still be held anonymously so I'm not sure how effective switching to registered only might be. Forcing all commuters to touch in/out at stations with only a couple of validators would also be problematic.

Do you have a link to anywhere that mentions a Jan 2018 rollout?

I'd be very interested in that as well. Living in Durham, I only use my Oyster card 2-3 times a year and wouldn't want to roll up at Kings Cross in April 2018 on a delayed train and find I couldn't get across to Paddington in time for my connection as my Oyster card was no longer working(1).

1. I think I'm signed up to a TfL newsletter so may get some warning.

 

[ashworth]

I'd be very interested in that as well. Living in Durham, I only use my Oyster card 2-3 times a year and wouldn't want to roll up at Kings Cross in April 2018 on a delayed train and find I couldn't get across to Paddington in time for my connection as my Oyster card was no longer working(1).

1. I think I'm signed up to a TfL newsletter so may get some warning.

I also only use my Oyster Card for no more than 2 or 3 weeks each year when I'm visiting London.

However, during those weeks when I am in London I do use it fairly intensively. My Oyster Card must now be at least 10 years old and is looking somewhat worn and faded. Although it's still working perfectly well it does have a small crack in one corner and will need replacing at some point.
Would it be advisable to get a new one now or wait until 2018. Would I have to pay for a replacement, or as it's wearing out, would it be easy to get a new card for free and have my money transferred to the new one.

 

[simple simon]

Would it be advisable to get a new one now or wait until 2018. Would I have to pay for a replacement, or as it's wearing out, would it be easy to get a new card for free and have my money transferred to the new one.

I would suggest to wait until 2018 (this is what I am doing!), as hopefully TfL will have a plan of action for people who need new cards.

Will the replacements be free? In theory they ought to be, after all people were cajoled into buying Oyster cards on the basis of them being able to be kept and reused 'forever'. In some places (eg: Hong Kong) replacements are free, but in Holland they charge Euro 7.50 when cards need replacing.

Simon

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has that always been the case - I'm sure when CPC was first rolled out, all the card processing was done centrally for buses too? (Then again, I could be wrong :P )

With regard to this, I have a thread ongoing which might welcome your and others' contribution regarding exactly how this works. The issue that occurred was, to keep it simple, that I touched in on the bus (successfully, as there's a fare charged on my account) yet the inspector's device said I had not.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142543&page=2

 

[simple simon]

Has that always been the case - I'm sure when CPC was first rolled out, all the card processing was done centrally for buses too? (Then again, I could be wrong :P )

When CPC was first introduced on the buses I frequently read accounts by people who discovered that they were not charged for their journeys at all!

Simon

 

[simple simon]

Do you have a link to anywhere that mentions a Jan 2018 rollout?

Mike,

My information comes from discussions which include ticketing on District Dave and at a Yahoo group which includes some TfL people and former TfL people as its members. This yahoo group is restricted and only logged in members can see the messages.

I will seek more information and come back.

Simon