Franchise buffet cars

[Zontar]

I was reading an article how McDonald's in the '90s had a restaurant car with DB but it didn't take off and only lasted a couple of years

Now with technology that's moved on, could it be viable for a similar thing to appear on our network?

You see Greggs etc al pop up everywhere now, and I imagine that operators could sell the opportunity very lucratively on a buffet car.

Order at seat via an app to avoid the clogging up of corridors and at seat delivery could be quite manageable.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Its certainly an interesting idea.

 

[HSTEd]

The passenger counts on trains, and the cramped interiors, would make it exceptionally difficult to serve enough people fsat enough, certainly per staff member.

Fast food places like Greggs operate as highly tuned machines that serve lots and lots of people with minimum staffing required.
I am very doubtful you could fit anything like that into the compact footprint of a UK buffet vehicle.

Even if you could, you don't have a particularly large customer base, given only a few hundred people are even on the train.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Maybe it could be more viable to allow customers to order ahead from outlets at a station and have their orders ready for the train when it arrives, to be delivered by train crew? I believe this happens (unofficially) on some Indian trains

 

[Backroom_boy]

Maybe it could be more viable to allow customers to order ahead from outlets at a station and have their orders ready for the train when it arrives, to be delivered by train crew? I believe this happens (unofficially) on some Indian trains

And officially on Chinese trains ordering from a deliveroo sort of app

Food on China High-Speed Trains

Food is available on Chinese trains. You can buy food from trolleys for boxed meals, instant noodles, snacks, and fruits. Or have a dinner at the dining car.

www.chinahighlights.com

"Passengers of high-speed trains are able to order meals online at 27 railway stations through 12306.com and app.

The Restaurants include KFC, MacDonald, Burger King, DICOS for fast food; or Chinese style cafes for set menus of different types of food and flavors."

 

[Zontar]

Yes, a bit of imagination and it would work.

Basically a specialised deliveroo/Uber system for certain trains.

Why not fit out a retired 15x or 231 and have it somewhere.....

 

[30907]

ISTR Slovak cars are run as individual concessions - all with the same menu though, which has sadly gone downhill.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I was reading an article how McDonald's in the '90s had a restaurant car with DB but it didn't take off and only lasted a couple of years

Now with technology that's moved on, could it be viable for a similar thing to appear on our network?

You see Greggs etc al pop up everywhere now, and I imagine that operators could sell the opportunity very lucratively on a buffet car.

Order at seat via an app to avoid the clogging up of corridors and at seat delivery could be quite manageable.

Wouldn’t it be more financially viable for them to have a shop on a station that serves multiple trains which people can buy before they board than relying on one trainload purchasing on board?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've often said that we could easily have a system where proper meals, not just snacks, sandwiches and rubbish could be cooked and prepared on stations and delivered to trains for passengers to either collect from staff or have delivered to seat if there was a host on board. For things like tea, coffee and snacks vending machine technology is absolutely possible on trains now, just look at some of the Open Access type operations in Austria who are already doing this

 

[Falcon1200]

Wouldn’t it be more financially viable for them to have a shop on a station that serves multiple trains which people can buy before they board than relying on one trainload purchasing on board?

Indeed, and a Greggs has just opened within Glasgow Central station, even though there is one just across the road outside! It is common now for stations to have multiple catering outlets, for example Oxford has a Greggs, Costa Coffee, Marks & Spencer, WH Smith, and a couple of others I have forgotten (Patisserie Valerie and a baguette shop?), giving passengers a far greater choice than could ever be available on board a train.

 

[VItraveller]

I’m in two minds about this, I’d certainly find it incredibly useful being completely blind. I don’t often have time to visit the station shops before taking a long journey and many is the time I’ve waited in vain for the XC catering trolley to pass me by but on the other hand, those Xc trains are already pretty stinky as it is, I can’t imagine the smell if everyone was able to order Greggs or fried chicken from their favourite place,, my personal rule is that I only eat if the person next to me is eating because from experience being cramped cheeked to jowl with someone who’s eating a tuna sandwich is not a particularly pleasant experience.

---

 

[ainsworth74]

I've often said that we could easily have a system where proper meals, not just snacks, sandwiches and rubbish could be cooked and prepared on stations and delivered to trains for passengers to either collect from staff or have delivered to seat if there was a host on board.

I seem to recall that CrossCountry experimented with this for a little while. If you were on a Voyager (or HST) service passing through I think some key catering service stations (like Birmingham, Newcastle or Edinburgh) you could pre-order a meal to be delivered to your seat in a specific time window. I did this when I did Aberdeen to Penzance maybe ten years ago and I recall it working flawlessly (even though I'd moved from my reserved seat, I just grabbed the RSM and told them) and the food was tasty and filling. Presumably though it wasn't a success as it's obviously long gone now.

Indeed I'm pretty sure the start of this thread is covering the introduction of that service: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountrys-catering-offering-2015-2017.120782/

 

[Tetchytyke]

One of the local pizza places near to me has a vending machine in the window. The machine heats up pizzas that they've made fresh then frozen and stored in the machine. Works alright.

I'd say automation is really the way to go for catering on trains. Vending machines can do so much more than the Maxpax rubbish we used to get.

 

[Helvellyn]

The LNER Lets Eat at Your Seat concept shows you can keep a static buffet and still do at seat catering without needing a trolley. It needs two staff members, so is labour intensive. It would never get past DfT but imagine if say CrossCountry could run such a concept but be allowed to franchise the catering out to say Costa or Starbucks. You could have complimentary first class catering still with an at seat delivered name brand coffee and food.

 

[RT4038]

The LNER Lets Eat at Your Seat concept shows you can keep a static buffet and still do at seat catering without needing a trolley. It needs two staff members, so is labour intensive. It would never get past DfT but imagine if say CrossCountry could run such a concept but be allowed to franchise the catering out to say Costa or Starbucks. You could have complimentary first class catering still with an at seat delivered name brand coffee and food.

The point has been made further up this thread - I doubt there is sufficient (or more likely - any) money to be made to interest any franchisee. The logistics are just too onerous and costly.

 

[Zontar]

Wouldn’t it be more financially viable for them to have a shop on a station that serves multiple trains which people can buy before they board than relying on one trainload purchasing on board?

If they already have facilities that can produce the goods, it would be significantly cheaper to operate than having to lease and kit out a new unit.

Unless they could calculate footfall trade to cover these costs of course.

Also it's the convenience factory. Not all coaches would have to be served, just like we have quiet zones.

The LNER Lets Eat at Your Seat concept shows you can keep a static buffet and still do at seat catering without needing a trolley. It needs two staff members, so is labour intensive. It would never get past DfT but imagine if say CrossCountry could run such a concept but be allowed to franchise the catering out to say Costa or Starbucks. You could have complimentary first class catering still with an at seat delivered name brand coffee and food.

This is it. People love brands.

 

[BlueLeanie]

There are stations throughout the country where rail staff have a pre-order arrangement with the local chippy etc. I'm sure I've seen bags being handed drivers and guards.

The thought of a Scotrail service with a mini buffet franchise by Fisher & Donaldson, or one of the East Coast OAO's powered by Betty's...

A hot steak pie with the swirl of mash and beans on top followed by a fudge donut and cup of tea on ScotRail... Heaven.

 

[Zontar]

There are stations throughout the country where rail staff have a pre-order arrangement with the local chippy etc. I'm sure I've seen bags being handed drivers and guards.

The thought of a Scotrail service with a mini buffet franchise by Fisher & Donaldson, or one of the East Coast OAO's powered by Betty's...

A hot steak pie with the swirl of mash and beans on top followed by a fudge donut and cup of tea on ScotRail... Heaven.

Exactly this. Nothing stopping this being rolled out on a bigger basis

 

[Backroom_boy]

Exactly this. Nothing stopping this being rolled out on a bigger basis

Yeah but these pages would be full of people moaning their service had/hadn't been held so their/some other passenger had got/missed their fish supper

 

[TheWierdOne]

Yeah but these pages would be full of people moaning their service had/hadn't been held so their/some other passenger had got/missed their fish supper

For the times when services run late it really shouldn’t be beyond the imagination to have a hot cabinet and fridge installed somewhere so that meals can be held for a little bit and then bought out to the platform as the train approaches

 

[whoosh]

A static shop at a railway station will have a greater potential number of people use it - the number of people who will catch ALL the trains from that station, rather than just those on that unit/rake that day.

With a limited number of potential customers, having to add VAT to every order on the train - because eating on a train is charged VAT and considered a luxury like eating out at a restaurant, will either:
•Make it less profitable, if that cost isn't passed on to the customers
•Put prices up compared to shops on stations (who have some, or all trade, that is take-away)

The very reasons on train catering has declined nationwide amongst the TOCs and probably during BR days as well.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The problem is that the near-universal use of multiple-units now makes adding a franchised coach of this kind close to impossible. The idea reminds me of "the first privatized train" in recent UK history - a seating coach run by Stagecoach, added to the East Coast sleeper in the early 90s. Alas that something along those lines (albeit concerning a buffet car) would be hard to recreate now.

All that said, Fisher & Donaldson fudge doughnuts on the ECML? Yes please!

 

[mike57]

I have seen pizza unofficially delivered to the train by an obviously local pizza shop at an open station. A group of lads had ordered 4 pizzas and soft drinks. One of them waited at the door, pizza shop delivery guy hands over boxes and cans it was obviously prepaid, they had obviously told him which coach they were in. I get the feeling it could be nice little extra earner for a local shop if they keep it under the radar.

 

[VItraveller]

I have seen pizza unofficially delivered to the train by an obviously local pizza shop at an open station. A group of lads had ordered 4 pizzas and soft drinks. One of them waited at the door, pizza shop delivery guy hands over boxes and cans it was obviously prepaid, they had obviously told him which coach they were in. I get the feeling it could be nice little extra earner for a local shop if they keep it under the radar.

You could do that at Northampton with the long LNWR dwell time or Reading before the train carries on to Basingstoke.
though I don’t imagine it’d be fun carrying a load of pizzas and soft drinks through the barriers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The "coffee lounge" area on the Brighton Express 319s was branded as "Puccino's": the coffee chain that at the time had an outlet at many London suburban stations, and did the whole "wackaging" (a portmanteau of wacky + packaging: think Innocent Smoothies) thing before it became widespread.

 

[Indigo Soup]

charged VAT and considered a luxury

The two aren't related. Lots of things that aren't 'luxuries' by any reasonable definition have VAT charged on them. And quite a few things that most people would consider luxuries are exempt or zero-rated.

The default assumption is that everything is charged VAT at 20% unless a specific decision has been made to charge a lower rate (either 0% or 5%) or to make it totally exempt. This is often, but not always, because a particular type of goods or services is considered essential.

 

[Russel]

I think we need more focus on value for money catering at stations, buy food before you board and stick a costa express and cold drink vending machine on the train, job done.

The UK isn't a big country, Euston to Glasgow is only around 5 hours, we have no Amtrak style multiple day journeys so we don't need Amtrak style onboard catering.

 

[6Gman]

I've often said that we could easily have a system where proper meals, not just snacks, sandwiches and rubbish could be cooked and prepared on stations and delivered to trains for passengers to either collect from staff or have delivered to seat if there was a host on board. For things like tea, coffee and snacks vending machine technology is absolutely possible on trains now, just look at some of the Open Access type operations in Austria who are already doing this

Not sure "easily" is appropriate here. Transporting cooked food from a fixed location to dispersed locations at various times (trains sometimes run late) would be challenging to say the least. From my time as a school governor, where meals were all brought from an off-site kitchen to the school - to one place at one time - was hard enough!

The logistics of getting meals from a kitchen somewhere on Crewe station to 3 people on 1A97 at 13.15, 6 people on 1S96 13.23, 4 people on 1M99 13.30 etc etc sounds a nightmare.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Not sure "easily" is appropriate here. Transporting cooked food from a fixed location to dispersed locations at various times (trains sometimes run late) would be challenging to say the least. From my time as a school governor, where meals were all brought from an off-site kitchen to the school - to one place at one time - was hard enough!

The logistics of getting meals from a kitchen somewhere on Crewe station to 3 people on 1A97 at 13.15, 6 people on 1S96 13.23, 4 people on 1M99 13.30 etc etc sounds a nightmare.

Deliveroo and Uber Eats manage to deliver multiple one person orders at a time just fine, as long as you set a minimum order time to ensure a reasonable time for preparation and delivery to the station there’s no significant barrier to having an option to put in a seat, carriage, and train number or departure time.

 

[Yew]

Yes, a bit of imagination and it would work.

Basically a specialised deliveroo/Uber system for certain trains.

Why not fit out a retired 15x or 231 and have it somewhere.....

There are plenty of places with unused/under-used station space. I've often thought that a little Café at, say, Leicester could do roaring trade. Especially if there was agreement with RG to distribute the food along the train.

Unfortunately, that would require passion and innovation, and modern British outsourcing just does "barely good enough to not get stripped of the contract"