Friends & Family Railcard - TFL discounts

[MikeWh]

When purchasing a discounted child day travelcard for £2 does an adult ticket need to be bought at the same time (as you do when you buy NR tickets)?

You need a child to get a discounted adult travelcard with F&F.

 

[BrianTheLion]

You need a child to get a discounted adult travelcard with F&F.

What I meant was if for example I had an oyster card, could I then produce my railcard to claim the discount for the child travelcard or would I need to stump up the £3.20?

 

[MikeWh]

What I meant was if for example I had an oyster card, could I then produce my railcard to claim the discount for the child travelcard or would I need to stump up the £3.20?

Unfortunately that doesn't work. An Oyster card never holds a one-day travelcard, it simply stops charging when you reach the equivalent level. The minimum F&F group is one adult and one child.

 

[Daz28]

Unfortunately that doesn't work. An Oyster card never holds a one-day travelcard, it simply stops charging when you reach the equivalent level. The minimum F&F group is one adult and one child.

I have used my adult PAYG Oyster card and then paid a pound for a child F&F discounted travelcard. It is cheaper than a child return to London from my local stations.

 

[John @ home]

I have used my adult PAYG Oyster card and then paid a pound for a child F&F discounted travelcard.

Did you also have a season ticket loaded on the Oyster card?

 

[Daz28]

Did you also have a season ticket loaded on the Oyster card?

No, just PAYG.

I've bought discounted child travelcards with Oyster PAYG many times. Only once did I get told it wasn't allowed without a paper ticket, but after a little discussion, it was still sold.

The cost/benefit calculation for me of Oyster vs Paper is distorted as I usually get one and sometimes two buses before I get to the station. As I can no longer purchase a paper travelcard locally, Oyster is the only option.

 

[BrianTheLion]

I have used my adult PAYG Oyster card and then paid a pound for a child F&F discounted travelcard. It is cheaper than a child return to London from my local stations.

Is it not £2?

TFL as usual isn't exactly clear on the criteria for F&F purchases.

Holders of the following:
Gold Card
Network Railcard
Family and Friends Railcard
HM Forces Railcard
can buy a Zones 1-9 Off-Peak Day Travelcard after 10:00 for just £2 each for up to four children travelling with them

I Understand first of all the 10am should read 9.30? and on the adult info page it states

If you have a:
Senior Railcard
16-25 Railcard
Disabled Persons Railcard
Gold Card
HM Forces Railcard

You can get:
34 per cent off off-peak Oyster single fares on all rail services in London
34 per cent off off-peak daily price caps
Discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcards (also for Network Railcard and Family and Friends Railcard holders)

Now common sense would suggest normal minimum of 1+1 rules would apply with a F&F purchase but Tfl doesnt exactly refer to this on either the adult or the child ticket pages.

 

[Daz28]

Is it not £2?

Yes, it is now. Used to be a £1.

Now common sense would suggest normal minimum of 1+1 rules would apply with a F&F purchase but Tfl doesnt exactly refer to this on either the adult or the child ticket pages.

I understood the normal National Rail rules are that you must have a F&F Railcard with you to use discounted fares, and that you must travel with at least one child.

I don't think there is anything to prevent you having a child with a discounted ticket, and an adult with an undiscounted ticket. Normally this would not make sense, but Oyster is a special case.

I suppose another case where this might be useful is if an adult has already bought an advance ticket intending to travel alone, and later decides to take a child with them. I believe the child can get a F&F discount even if the adult ticket does not.

 

[John @ home]

It may be helpful if I quote in full the Family & Friends' Railcard rules on Size of group from the internal railway industry document, The Manual:

The minimum 'Family & Friends' group consists of at least one adult named on the Railcard and at least one child. Adults cannot travel alone on discount price tickets purchased with this Railcard.

The maximum group size is four adults (including either one or both named cardholders) and four children.

A child is anyone aged between 5 and 15 years when the Railcard is issued. Children aged under 16 at the time that the Railcard is purchased may still travel at the discounted child’s fare throughout the validity period of the one-year Railcard, or, for a three-year Railcard, up to and including the day before their 17th birthday.

Children under 5 travel free and each adult may take up to two ‘under 5s’ with them, in addition to the maximum group size.

If the only child in the ‘Family & Friends’ group is under 5, then that child must have a child’s discounted price ticket. This still offers the advantage of the minimum ‘Family & Friends’ group facility allowed.

Discounted price tickets purchased by a Family & Friends Railcard holder should be issued for travel for the same origin and destination and should normally be of the same ticket type (example all Off-Peak Returns). However the Railcard group can be extended either on the outward or return journey, up to the maximum group size detailed above. If the group size is increased for a complete return journey then discounted price tickets of the same type can be either purchased in advance of travel or at the ticket office before the journey commences.

If the group size is increased for only the outward or return leg of a journey, then appropriate discounted single tickets should be issued for the new members of the group. It is in this situation that the ticket type may vary.

The group, whatever the size, must stay together throughout the journey as the Family & Friends Railcard validates all tickets.

Children accompanying adults on one leg of a journey

If a Family & Friends Railcard holder is making a complete return journey but the accompanying children are only making a single journey (on either the outward or the return leg), it is possible for the children to benefit from the Railcard discounts. Depending on which option is cheaper, the customer can either:

• buy an undiscounted ticket for the portion of the journey they are making without the children, and then Railcard-discounted tickets for the whole group for the journey made together, or
• buy an undiscounted ticket for the whole journey made by the adult and Family & Friend Railcard-discounted tickets for the children for the leg of the journey that they are making.

It is not clear to me whether the option to "buy an undiscounted ticket for the whole journey made by the adult and Family & Friend Railcard-discounted tickets for the children for the leg of the journey that they are making" exists if the adult travels on an electronic ticket but the child(ren) use paper ticket(s). Perhaps MikeWh, our Oyster expert, would like to offer a view on how this rule interacts with the Oyster terms & conditions.

 

[Daz28]

It may be helpful if I quote in full the Family & Friends' Railcard rules on Size of group from the internal railway industry document, The Manual:

Does The Manual cover the situation where the adult already has a season ticket, but wishes to purchase F&F discounted child tickets?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not sure if it'll help you, but don't forget that accompanied under 11-year olds travel free on Buses, Underground, London Overground and DLR.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14554.aspx

 

[Daz28]

I'm not sure if it'll help you, but don't forget that accompanied under 11-year olds travel free on Buses, Underground, London Overground and DLR.

Yes, that's part of the problem. The kids go free on the buses, whereas I've already clocked up a couple of journeys on my Oyster before getting to the station. I then have the choice of continuing to use Oyster or paying for a paper travelcard.

 

[John @ home]

Does The Manual cover the situation where the adult already has a season ticket, but wishes to purchase F&F discounted child tickets?

It does not appear to be covered for tickets discounted by a Family & Friends Railcard, but this is included in the Size of group rules for Annual Gold Cards, which are issued to holders of Annual Season tickets and Annual Travelcards where:

• the origin station is within the Network Railcard area, or
• the issuing station and either the origin station, destination station or both, are within the Network Railcard area.

The adult named on the Annual Gold Card, paying the appropriate Annual Gold Card discounted fare if the journey is not covered by their Season ticket, plus:

• Up to three other adults aged 16 or over, paying the appropriate discounted fare.
• Up to four children aged over 4 and under 16 paying the flat fare.
• Up to two children aged under 5 at no charge.

The maximum group size is four adults, four flat fare-paying children and two children under 5 (who travel at no charge).

Note:

Up to 4 children aged under 11 accompanying the Annual Gold Card holder can travel free on London Underground and London Overground services and on other National Rail services between stations on designated ‘inter-available’ routes as defined in the London section.

Annual Gold Card holders do not need to purchase a ticket for themselves if the journey to be undertaken is covered by the route validity of their Season Ticket. However, Annual Gold Card holders purchasing discounted Day Travelcards for accompanying adults or children, must also purchase one for themselves if their Annual Gold Card is not valid for travel in Fare Zones 1-6.

Discounted price tickets purchased by an Annual Gold Card holder should be issued for travel for the same origin and destination and should normally be of the same ticket type. However the Railcard group can be extended either on the outward or return journey, up to the maximum group size detailed above. If the group size is increased for a complete return journey then discounted price tickets of the same type can be either purchased in advance of travel or at the ticket office before the journey commences.

If the group size is increased for only the outward or return leg of a journey, then appropriate discounted Single tickets should be issued for the new members of the group. It is in this situation that the ticket type may vary.

The group, whatever the size, must stay together throughout the journey as the Annual Gold Card validates all tickets.