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Fuel Cost For A Station Call?

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LE Greys

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No-one would have mentioned the Toyota Pious if only you hadn't introduced yours into the discussion. However, as an aside, the Clarkson is correct. As much as his on-screen persona is to appear to be an arse and as offensive as possible, wider research shows that he is actually very well-informed.

The key to increasing fuel mileage has been well understood for very many years, and the answer lays in reducing weight, aerodynamic and mechanical drag, and in using highly efficient power plants. Hybrids are not a very good option because although they provide some efficiencies (e.g. by taking advantage of the different characteristics of petrol and electric motors), they are needlessly heavy and complicated machines and are consequently outperformed by conventional cars such as VW's Bluemotion range.

While I'm on a rant, I mentioned before about the blind alley offered by hydrogen fuel cells. Today I had to take my bike into the shop for a bit of fettling and, while I was waiting, I dived into an old copy of Bike magazine that was lying around in the waiting area. Contained within this publication was an article on an experimental Suzuki Burgman scooter that used a hydrogen fuel cell.

Now, I have already hinted at one of the reasons why it is a very bad idea but this article contained another very good reason, and that is efficiency. This article quotes an expert who states that refining, storing and transporting hydrogen requires so much energy that less than a quarter of the energy required to get hydrogen fuel into the customers vehicle would be available at the wheel. However, if this energy was put into the National Grid instead and used to charge up a battery electric vehicle approximately two thirds would be available at the wheel. This makes battery electric vehicles three times as efficient and only a third as polluting to run as equivalent vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells. This is an appalling statistic and certainly should make people think twice before proclaiming hydrogen fuel cells as being "zero emissions" or even the solution to the impending energy crisis.

But to bring this post back to the topic, the lessons learnt by the car industry should be understood also by the rail industry. For greater efficiency we need lighter and more aerodynamically efficient trains that take full advantage of efficient power and propulsion systems. We also need to be driving ahead with rail electrification in order that more of the network can be run from renewable energy such as wind power that is completely carbon neutral. Storage of kinetic energy using flywheels or battery banks to be fed back in as part of the acceleration phase does need to be considered, but only if the penalty in weight and complexity makes it sufficiently advantageous. Rail travel needs to be at the forefront of "green" transportation and to show it.

O L Leigh

I like the idea of electric vehicles, but there are a few major problems with battery-powered cars. They work fine for short journeys, especially with a lot of stops so that they can take advantage of regenerative braking (that's one reason why milk floats tend to use batteries). Excellent for town cars, doing the school run or the weekly shop, but a nightmare if you live in the country. Short hops to the nearest town are OK, possibly, but lack of high-capacity charging facilities mean a major recharge every night. I don't use cars much, but often tend to make very long runs, and that's where the battery falls down. There's no cantenary over trunk roads, and 200+ miles on batteries (especially towing a boat) is just about it. That then means a series of recharges, thus holding things up. You can't carry everything onto a train, nor can a train get you to difficult places, where the wildlife is. Fuel cells would have the capacity to do it, and H2 does not bleed off as quickly as batteries lose their charge.

However, running electric vehicles directly off the grid would work very well. Trams and trolleybuses are extremely efficient, and trolleytrucks would probably do very well on major roads (special electrified lanes on motorways for instance) and in town, but would require massive battery backups if they had to deliver away from the wires. Hydrogen might be an answer to the range issue, and it does give something that can replace diesel vehicles in some cases. If really necessary, railways can go back to steam if electrification is impossible, buses and lorries can convert to direct electric traction, and agriculture can use horses. The major problem is for private vehicles in the country, which people cannot do without.

There is an added benefit to hydrogen, deuterium. Electrolysis of seawater is the ideal way to extract Du from heavy water (about 1% of seawater) to provide fuel for fusion reactors. If we ever get fusion working, we will need lots and lots of fuel to make electricity, some of which will be fed to the electrolysis plants. That produces lots of H2 and O2.

However, we are speculating about events in the 2040s, probably in the wrong forum. I doubt we will ever see H2-fuelled trains, even steam would be more efficient, but we might just see fusion power providing the electricity that the successors of Eurostar and the Class 92 run on.
 
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Was on a EC HST last week, and noticed a strong smell of uncombusted diesel everytime the brakes were applied, is this what happens normally? Going by this thread this would waste a few quid in fuel?
 

O L Leigh

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There is an added benefit to hydrogen, deuterium. Electrolysis of seawater is the ideal way to extract Du from heavy water (about 1% of seawater) to provide fuel for fusion reactors. If we ever get fusion working, we will need lots and lots of fuel to make electricity, some of which will be fed to the electrolysis plants. That produces lots of H2 and O2.

You're forgetting the golden rule of energy; that you don't get something for nothing. How much seawater would need to be electrolysed to extract sufficient deuterium to fuel a fusion reactor? Lots, I would imagine. Plus the point of electrolysing water to produce commercial quantities of hydrogen is that it is a vastly inefficient process, requiring far more energy to achieve than it would yield back as a fuel. That is why commercial quantities of hydrogen are not produced by electrolysis. In any case, the processes of electrolysis required to isolate deuterium is different from that required to simply "crack" the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

Incidentally, your figures regarding the abundance of deuterium are wrong. Deuterium occurs naturally in the oceans at a level of approximately one atom for every 6400 atoms of naturally occuring hydrogen (or 0.0312% by mass), which itself comprises just 10.82% of seawater by mass. So scarce is it that deuterium was not identified until a scientist distilled five litres of hydrogen down to just one millilitre to ensure that the identification was unambiguous.

I understand entirely the problems of battery electric vehicles and certainly wasn't suggesting that they were as good as conventional petrol or diesel cars. My point simply was that in terms of energy use, battery electric vehicles are more efficient than vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

**EDIT**

Further to the discussions about battery electric vehicles, the charging time is certainly an issue. However, provided that the infrastructure can be provided, there is no reason why such vehicles couldn't be as convenient on long runs as petrol or diesel cars.

Instead of petrol stations we might be seeing battery exchange stations where you can exchange your depleted batteries for fully charged ones, paying just for the charge. This is the same system that has been used for years with camping gas bottles where you exchange your empty bottle for a full one and pay just for the gas. In the same way as the gas bottles are sent away to be refilled and go back into circulation, so the batteries you exchange could be recharged and re-used. Plus it has the advantage of not needing to wait around for hours, being as fast, clean and convenient as visiting a petrol station and not being needlessly expensive.

O L Leigh
 
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LE Greys

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You're forgetting the golden rule of energy; that you don't get something for nothing. How much seawater would need to be electrolysed to extract sufficient deuterium to fuel a fusion reactor? Lots, I would imagine. Plus the point of electrolysing water to produce commercial quantities of hydrogen is that it is a vastly inefficient process, requiring far more energy to achieve than it would yield back as a fuel. That is why commercial quantities of hydrogen are not produced by electrolysis. In any case, the processes of electrolysis required to isolate deuterium is different from that required to simply "crack" the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I was able to find out that, with 100% efficiency, 30kg of seawater would yield 1g of Du. At a more likely 20% efficiency, that's 150kg of seawater. I'm not sure of the actual figures, but people are certainly looking at a process by which Du is extracted direct from seawater, fed into a reactor and fused to create energy as a commercial proposition. They also considered breeding tritium from lithium as an additional fuel (not sure if that includes recycled batteries). Waste products include pure water (as a result of pre-extraction desalination) pure H2 and pure O2.

Incidentally, your figures regarding the abundance of deuterium are wrong. Deuterium occurs naturally in the oceans at a level of approximately one atom for every 6400 atoms of naturally occuring hydrogen (or 0.0312% by mass), which itself comprises just 10.82% of seawater by mass. So scarce is it that deuterium was not identified until a scientist distilled five litres of hydrogen down to just one millilitre to ensure that the identification was unambiguous.

I really ought to know that, as it is important in biochemistry. :oops:

I understand entirely the problems of battery electric vehicles and certainly wasn't suggesting that they were as good as conventional petrol or diesel cars. My point simply was that in terms of energy use, battery electric vehicles are more efficient than vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

**EDIT**

Further to the discussions about battery electric vehicles, the charging time is certainly an issue. However, provided that the infrastructure can be provided, there is no reason why such vehicles couldn't be as convenient on long runs as petrol or diesel cars.

Instead of petrol stations we might be seeing battery exchange stations where you can exchange your depleted batteries for fully charged ones, paying just for the charge. This is the same system that has been used for years with camping gas bottles where you exchange your empty bottle for a full one and pay just for the gas. In the same way as the gas bottles are sent away to be refilled and go back into circulation, so the batteries you exchange could be recharged and re-used. Plus it has the advantage of not needing to wait around for hours, being as fast, clean and convenient as visiting a petrol station and not being needlessly expensive.

O L Leigh

That is a very good idea, and would be very efficient. :idea:
 
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