Gatwick Express off peak ticket with split ticketing inc. season ticket

[infobleep]

Hi there

I have a London travel card season ticket which includes a route via RedHill. I also have a gold card. Once a week, most weeks, I travel beyond RedHill to Haywards Heath, during the evening peaking peak rush hour, starting from Victoria. I don't stop at RedHill due to the easement allowing me to take the avoiding line. I don't take this journey to save money, I just have to be somewhere else once a week.

When I go to look up the fares online from RedHill and chose off peak, it exclues all the trains run as Gatwick Express, from Gatwick Airport. Is travel on such a train only possible with a peak ticket? My RedHill ticket states it is valid for any permitted route. I did look online but I could find no evening peak restrictions for the Gatwick Express trains.

If their are then it would be helpful if more non Gatwick Express trains stopped there as I doubt many people are aware that for Gatwick Express trains alone, they can only travel south on a peak ticket. That assumes that such a restriction exists.

Interestingly the anytime day single from Gatwick to Haywards Heath is cheaper than the web only 10% discounted fare Off Peak single. I digress.

I actually travel from Harrow and it use to be possible to get a train to Clapham Junction and change there. However they have changed the timetable and now the train to Haywards Heath leaves Clapham Junction before the Harrow train gets in. There is another one but it involves changing at East Croydon and there is only 5 minutes to do so. In addition to that you end up on a heavily packed train which surely can do without more passengers such as myself. This only occur since last December. Where as the Gatwick Express always has space.

This timetable changes may be due to the platform works at Gatwick but whether they revert back afterwards remains to be seen. by which point I might be working somewhere else and not have such issues.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What easement allowing you to take the avoiding line? (by which I assume you mean the Quarry Line that the 'fast' services use)

Redhill/Gatwick Airport-Haywards Heath doesn't appear to have an Off-Peak Single, only an Off-Peak Day Return.

IIRC, the services to Haywards Heath and beyond on Gatwick Express, that the Network Railcard/Goldcard are valid on, are the 1730, 1745, 1800, 1815, 1830 and 1845 from Victoria. Travel from Gatwick to the south is at anytime, travel from stations between Victoria and Gatwick on Gatwick Express services is not mentioned in the terms and conditions.

 

[soil]

Your post is a bit confusing.

I take it you have a Dorking - London season+Travelcard, or similar.

What is the ticket and times you are checking on NRE re the Gat Ex ticket? I can't reproduce it.

 

[yorkie]

When I go to look up the fares online from RedHill and chose off peak, it exclues all the trains run as Gatwick Express, from Gatwick Airport. Is travel on such a train only possible with a peak ticket?

Redhill to London is routed "Any Permitted" but it is not a permitted route to travel via Gatwick Airport under normal circumstances.

My RedHill ticket states it is valid for any permitted route. I did look online but I could find no evening peak restrictions for the Gatwick Express trains.

If you want to travel from London to Gatwick Airport, on a Redhill to London Travelcard Season ticket, you simply need to buy a ticket from Redhill to Gatwick. However, the train needs to go via Redhill.

The train can be operated by any TOC, and that includes trains branded Brighton Express or Gatwick Express that are operated by the Southern Train Operating Company, providing it goes via Redhill.

If you want to avoid Redhill, in order to use express services that by-pass Redhill, buy from East Croydon or Boundary Zone 6 instead.

The train does not need to call anywhere, as you have one Season and the other ticket(s) is/are not Seasons, but the tickets do need to cover all of the journey.

If their are then it would be helpful if more non Gatwick Express trains stopped there as I doubt many people are aware that for Gatwick Express trains alone, they can only travel south on a peak ticket. That assumes that such a restriction exists.

I don't quite understand this.

Where as the Gatwick Express always has space.

With a few exceptions, the trains branded Gatwick Express that do not serve Brighton are among the quietest, lightly loaded trains that Southern operate. You can usually get an entire coach to yourself!

 

[infobleep]

Thank you for your replies. I will look into this. I am sure I read some years ago that an easement existed allowing passengers to take the quarry line when suing split ticketing. May be I am misremembering or I misread the easement.

I've never had anyone say to me my ticket combination is not valid though when I've presented my tickets to people, this goes back to before Gatwick Express got rid of their guards and before I had a Gold card so nothing to do with that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course the document has been updated since I last looked at it.

However all I could find which was close was: [http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide]

Customers travelling from Purley to stations via Redhill may double back
via Purley Oaks, South Croydon and East Croydon.
700104 Customers travelling from Purley Oaks via Redhill may double back via
South Croydon and East Croydon.

I'm not travelling from Purley but I hold a season ticket as part of my journey and my train goes through Purley without stopping.

 

[island]

That doesn't count I'm afraid. Contrast other easements which use verbiage such as "passengers travelling to or via X may..."

 

[infobleep]

With regarding a non-stopping at Redhill and using the quarry line, someone I know who drives for Southern said that it would be impossible to know which route a non stopping train will be taking.

There is a non-stopping line which runs straight through Redhill. Sometimes non-stopping trains are routed this way. He only knows this by which route the signals direct him. Conversely a non stopping train due to go through Redhill might get diverted via the quarry line and passengers would not know this in advance.

If you hold a season ticket as part of the combine tickets, you do not need to stop at the station but you do need to pass through it. However if they divert the train you can no longer pass through it.

As I've previously stated I've had my ticket combination checked at various times, including since I originally posted on this thread and no one has ever said this was not allowed.

I have asked Southern for their opinion via e-mail.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It will be impossible to know for certain until the train is there (unless you are the signalman), but every train has a 'booked path', which can be seen on websites like opentraintimes and realtraintimes and to not use the booked path would usually be because of disruption of some kind, where allowances will normally be made.

 

[bb21]

I have asked Southern for their opinion via e-mail.

I think asking Southern is definitely the way forward.

There is nothing I can see that allows you to go via the Quarry Line with a split at Redhill. The onus is on the passenger in these situations to ensure that he travels on the correct train, by asking station staff or finding out relevant information via other sources.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it is permitted, as it would probably make life easier for their own staff.

 

[John @ home]

If you want to travel from London to Gatwick Airport, on a Redhill to London Travelcard Season ticket, you simply need to buy a ticket from Redhill to Gatwick. However, the train needs to go via Redhill.

I don't think I agree that the train needs to go via Redhill. Redhill is a member of Redhill Group for routeing purposes. Redhill Group comprises Earlswood and Redhill [1]. All London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Earlswood, therefore all London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Redhill Group.

Therefore a passenger who wants to travel from London to Gatwick Airport using a combination of

• a Travelcard season ticket which includes validity London - Redhill, and
• a valid Redhill - Haywards Heath ticket which is neither a Season Ticket nor a Leisure Pass

may use the Group Stations rule [2] and NRCoC Condition 19(c) [3] to travel on a London to Gatwick Airport train which passes through Redhill Group but does not call at any station in Redhill Group.

[1] See Group Stations.
[2] See National Routeing Guide Instructions page 6.
[3] See National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....All London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Earlswood, therefore all London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Redhill Group....

Trains going down (or up) the Quarry lines cannot go through Earlswood station without the RAIB showing a big interest in it.

 

[bb21]

I don't think I agree that the train needs to go via Redhill. Redhill is a member of Redhill Group for routeing purposes. Redhill Group comprises Earlswood and Redhill [1]. All London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Earlswood, therefore all London - Gatwick Airport trains pass through Redhill Group.

Trains going down (or up) the Quarry lines cannot go through Earlswood station without the RAIB showing a big interest in it.

Interesting, so we are back to the question of whether passing a station on adjacent lines without platforms counts as passing the station.

In addition, does Redhill in this sense mean the station (group) Redhill, as in Birmingham Stations, or Redhill (routeing) Group? I am not sure we ever reached consensus on this issue previously. I am personally inclined to think it is the former, but can equally see arguments being made for the other.

 

[John @ home]

Interesting, so we are back to the question of whether passing a station on adjacent lines without platforms counts as passing the station.

Agreed. The National Routeing Guide is inconsistent in its treatment of such stations. But Newton Routing Point is deemed to be on the WCML - there is no separate mapped route Motherwell - Glasgow Group by Up & Down Main lines between Newton East Jn and Newton West Jn. Similarly, my view is that the Quarry lines are deemed to pass through Earlswood (Redhill Group) - there is no separate mapped route Gatwick Airport - Croydon Group avoiding Redhill Group.

I note that the Up & Down Fast lines at Earlswood are shown in the 2008 edition of Quail vol.5 to be the site of "provisional proposed platforms".

does Redhill in this sense mean the station (group) Redhill, as in Birmingham Stations, or Redhill (routeing) Group?

I don't think that's crucial to this discussion. I am basing my opinion in post #10 on trains on the Quarry line passing through a member of Redhill Group at Earlswood and therefore the Group Stations rule applies.

GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think you have not considered the words "This extended availability is for interchange purposes only". What interchange purpose can be served on a train that does not call (nor can it call) at any station in the group?

 

[John @ home]

The rules contain no requirement for an interchange to take place within the Group.

In this instance, a train company would not be able to deny that infobleep, holding a Travelcard season ticket which includes validity London - Redhill and a valid Redhill - Haywards Heath ticket which is not a Season Ticket, is choosing to interchange at Gatwick Airport in order to achieve a faster London - Haywards Heath journey than a service calling at Redhill.

I remain of the view that the rules allow infobleep to travel on a London to Gatwick Airport train which passes through Redhill Group but does not call at any station in Redhill Group.

The fact that the railway industry consider a London to Gatwick Airport train via the Quarry line to pass through Earlswood is confirmed by the real time running information recently released to the public. See, for example, today's 1D48 2200 London Victoria to Gatwick Airport which passed Earlswood at 2223.

 

[yorkie]

The more you learn about railway ticketing, the more you realise that things are not always what they seem, and the more there is to learn!

I agree that there is no requirement for a platform face to be on the line you actually take, to be considered going via that station. So a train going via the Quarry line does indeed go via Earleswood (equally a fast train from Reading to Oxford does go via Didcot).

 

[bb21]

(equally a fast train from Reading to Oxford does go via Didcot).

Yes according to Routeing Guide maps. No according to opentraintimes, etc.

The more I think about problems like this one, the less I think I know about railway ticketing.

 

[yorkie]

Yes according to Routeing Guide maps. No according to opentraintimes, etc.

And Yes according to booking engines and National Rail Enquiries (the official/definitive source...). Clearly the ATOC interpretation is that the trains in question do go via Didcot.

 

[bb21]

And Yes according to booking engines and National Rail Enquiries (the official/definitive source...). Clearly the ATOC interpretation is that the trains in question do go via Didcot.

Not disputing it, just demonstrating confusion from different sources.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The rules contain no requirement for an interchange to take place within the Group....

Is Salfords part of Redhill Group? Perhaps you can find a train from the Quarry Line that calls there?

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is one of my favourite Routeing Guide mysteries! Nice to see it coming up for discussion again, although I don't have much to add.

Clearly the ATOC interpretation is that the trains in question do go via Didcot.

This only works because, in their "Master Station Names File", ATOC deem Didcot North Junction and Didcot East Junction to be part of Didcot Parkway station. Of course, no trains ever stop at Didcot North Junction or Didcot East Junction. But they feature as timing points in the schedules for all trains using the Didcot avoiding line, so the ruse fools the booking engines.

There is similar situation at Gloucester, where Gloucester Yard Junction (on the main line between Cheltenham and Bristol) is deemed to be part of Gloucester station. This means that booking engines show tickets routed "VIA GLOUCESTER" as valid on trains that don't actually pass through Gloucester station.

 

[infobleep]

Just now I was looking up on National Rail Enquiries, Gatwick to East Croydon via Redhill. I saw some journeys taking 14 minutes and I was think wow that's fast. So I went in and found they didn't even stop at redhill.

One was a first capital connect. However if I do a Haywards Heath to East Croydon via Redhill, this train did not show up!

I'm waiting for a reply from Southern. Might take more than a few days I suspect.

Last night I was at London Bridge and I had a return to Chelmsford from Guildford. When I put into the NRE Web Site, via Redhill to get back to Guildford, nothing came up but when I did it via East Croydon, it showed a route via Redhill for the same price!

Now I then bought a ticket from Redhill to Haywards Heath. I asked in the ticket office, as it was past 9pm, could I go avoid Redhill or should I buy another ticket. He said I didn't need to by another ticket as my tickets were valid. There was engineering works around Redhill so I don't know if that made a difference, as in you could via to Redhill via Gatwick.

Of course he may not have understood my question. Not sure what happens when staff give out incorrect advice and you get stopped for traveling with incorrect tickets. It's very hard to challenge people paid to do a job I find. Anyway knowing that the train doesn't have guards and it's a Sunday night, plus the engineering works around Redhill, I did it anyway just to get back to my parents.

 

[paul1609]

Earlswood used to have platforms on the quarry lines. They were removed to improve the linespeed in to Redhill Tunnel in the 1970s.
I dont think you would have any Southern/ Gatwick Express employee arguing that the ticket wasnt valid tbh they are usually quite lenient with routing etc.