Gatwick Express to Brighton

[RUFJAN15]

With effect from the December timetable change, the old 'Brighton Express' services have been replaced by extending Gatwick Express services to Brighton.

I recall that, when the peak hour GatEx extensions started a few years back, it was stated that normal fares would apply to destinations South of Gatwick. A check today on BRFares suggests that this policy has now been formalised by withdrawing most 'Not Gatwick Express' fares from a broad range of South Coast stations. The only remaining 'NGE' fares appear to be Pricebusters, although Advances are sold as 'Southern Only'.

However I occasionally need to travel Horsham - Central London - Brighton - Horsham with the Horsham - London leg in the morning peak and the remainder of the journey Off Peak. I don't have a Railcard.

In the past I have always done this with a Horsham - London ADT (routed Not Gatwick Express), now costing £42.80, and a Three Bridges - Brighton CDR, now costing £12.50 [OK; I now realise that I should have been buying the Gatwick - Brighton CDR as it's cheaper; you live and learn!]. With this combination I could use the fast Victoria - Brighton trains; although they didn't stop at Three Bridges I was always told that it was OK when I asked Southern staff.

I will be doing this journey again next week and have realised that my chances of getting through the barrier to Platforms 13/14 at Victoria to catch the fast Brighton train holding a return ticket to Horsham marked 'Not Gatwick Express' are slim.

This raises a number of questions:

* Can anyone suggest a way of doing this without paying a £5.30 supplement to buy the Horsham - London 'Any Permitted' ADT or avoiding the fast trains?
* Have Southern deliberately retained the 'Not Gatwick Express' routing for tickets issued from stations between Three Bridges and Christs Hospital, or is this just an oversight?
* Is there any way of arguing that the combination of the London - Horsham ADT and Gatwick - Brighton CDR represents a single journey and that the cost should not have been increased by the transfer of the fast trains to Gatwick Express?

Any thoughts welcome!

 

[radamfi]

* Have Southern deliberately retained the 'Not Gatwick Express' routing for tickets issued from stations between Three Bridges and Christs Hospital, or is this just an oversight?

If they didn't, then you could get a ticket to Three Bridges and not need to pay for the higher Gatwick to London "Any Permitted" fare, which is £43.40 for a Anytime Day Travelcard compared to the £38.70 "Not Gatwick Express" fare from Three Bridges or your £42.80 from Horsham. From Haywards Heath it is £47.10, higher than the fare from Gatwick.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, at Brighton the screens for the Gatwick Express departures now all clearly state that the only tickets valid on Gatwick Express services are those marked "Any permitted".

So I'd suspect that you can't use a "not Gatwick Express" ticket on the Gatwick to Brighton leg on the extended service at all and that you will have to use one of the slower services.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The screens at Brighton can state what they like. It doesn't mean it's correct!

Gatwick Express (though it's not actually defined anywhere in the GTR franchise agreement) explicitly refers to services (currently operated as part of the GTR franchise) between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport with no scheduled intermediate stops.

South of Gatwick, such trains are treated as normal Southern services, also currently operated as part of the GTR franchise, and the only tickets not valid on them are those routed Thameslink (currently also operated as part of the GTR franchise) only. Simples.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think I'll let someone else test that out in practice...

 

[yorkie]

There has been no train operating company of the name "Gatwick Express" since 2008, so it would not be correct for any tickets to have any routeing relating to this defunct company.

The train company operating trains on this route (Govia Thameslink Railway) may claim that tickets routed "Thameslink Only" are not valid on their Southern or Gatwick Express branded trains, but that doesn't make it so.

GTR do indeed state that the only tickets which are valid on GX are those routed "Any permitted", but this is incorrect.

GTR may well give people hassle but, before the days of GTR, when Southern operated GX branded services, several people successfully used "Gatwick Express" branded trains on "Southern Only" routed tickets without incident; some people were charged (e.g. dvboy) but - as far as I know - all were subsequently refunded.

 

[Merseysider]

The wording of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) is clear.

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

Gatwick Express is not a Train Operating Company.

A ticket between Horsham and London that states "Not Gatwick Express" would have the same validity as a ticket that states "Not AMTRAK". It is still valid on Gatwick Express branded trains despite the endorsement to the contrary, as Gatwick Express is a trading name of Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd and nothing more. There is no provision in the NRCoC to determine validity based on trading names of companies.

I think I'll let someone else test that out in practice...

I would be happy to.

 

[gray1404]

I would be happy to.

Me too.

 

[Merseysider]

Me too.

Anyone else? We can make a forum meet out of it

 

[Starmill]

I had it confirmed by the twitter team that my ticket was valid on a train which the screens at Brighton said I needed an Any Permitted ticket for, even though the route wss very much not Any Permitted (+Via Birmingham, or +VTWC& CONNECNS). Following this, they insisted that the message was correct. I think that tells you all you need to know!

 

[yorkie]

Anyone else? We can make a forum meet out of it

On one occasion, 12 of us did this in Southern days, spread across 3 trains, back in this days of on board ticket inspections, using a variety of tickets valid on Southern. None of us were charged. They prey on people who are unable - or unwilling - to be assertive.

The biggest problem is using tickets they don't like from Victoria; if the tickets don't work the gates they are likely to refuse travel, and they will falsely claim Gatwick Express is a train operating company. They will deny that Govia Thameslink is a train operating company, and will claim it is an "umbrella company". It will be like talking to a brick wall.

Heading into Victoria, you may still have an argument, but it's harder for them to refuse you exit than entry.

 

[dvboy]

GTR may well give people hassle but, before the days of GTR, when Southern operated GX, several people successfully used "Gatwick Express" branded trains on "Southern Only" routed tickets without incident; some people were charged (e.g. dvboy) but - as far as I know - all subsequently refunded.

Yes, in 2012 I was charged a supplement to use the return part of a Southern Only off peak return. It was the early hours of the morning and I wasn't in the mood to challenge it or wait for the next Southern service - I wanted my hotel room bed at Gatwick. I later challenged it by letter, they wrote back and asked me to phone for a refund. They refunded not only the supplement but the full return fare also.

 

[gray1404]

Anyone else? We can make a forum meet out of it

Good idea. PM me about it re accommodation.

 

[Merseysider]

Good idea. PM me about it re accommodation.

That was in jest, I'm out of the country for a while

Next time I'm flying into/out of Gatwick however I'll see if 'not Gatwick Express' tickets have any issues on the Gatwick Express. It's a purely ridiculous situation and Govia need to get their house in order. They've had over six months to synchronise the fares and remove the redundant ones.

 

[MikeWh]

They've had over six months to synchronise the fares and remove the redundant ones.

If you mean remove the Southern only and Thameslink only tickets then I think you'll find that the DfT won't allow them to do that in one go. The instruction is to move towards parity over some time so that large numbers of commuters don't get a massive rise in travel costs.

 

[Merseysider]

If you mean remove the Southern only and Thameslink only tickets then I think you'll find that the DfT won't allow them to do that in one go. The instruction is to move towards parity over some time so that large numbers of commuters don't get a massive rise in travel costs.

That isn't Govia's fault as such but there are still 'not Gatwick Express' fares knocking about which have equal validity to Any Permitted tickets. It is a real possibility that people are still being sold tickets more expensive than necessary.

 

[clagmonster]

It is quite clear to me that 'Not Gatwick Express' cannot be a TOC prohibition as per Condition 10. It also clearly can't be a route restriction as per Condition 13 as the trains travel over the same route, unless they are somehow arguing platforms 13 and 14 at Victoria are a different route.

I do wonder, however, whether 'Not Gatwick Express' could be seen as a Condition 12 time restriction, with every train operated under the Gatwick Express brand being barred. The one key difference if this is the case is that in the event of infringement, new ticket or PF are not an option, it is excess to the valid fare or prosecute.

It would seem slightly perverse putting such a restriction in the route field, but the same could be said of operator restrictions.

The fun test case could be a not Gatwick Express anytime ticket, as by definition surely such a ticket can't have any condition 12 time restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

It is quite clear to me that 'Not Gatwick Express' cannot be a TOC prohibition as per Condition 10.....

Agreed, but that's exactly how it was, when it was a separate TOC. It's now meaningless, as there is no TOC of that name, so it's valid on all trains along permitted routes.

Other similar routeings have been made redundant, so it's not a new situation. What is unique is the fact that after several months there is no sign of anything being done. I blame both DfT and Govia. ORR should step in also, as breaches of consumer law occur every time a passenger is wrongly sold a more expensive ticket than they need to pay.

I do wonder, however, whether 'Not Gatwick Express' could be seen as a Condition 12 time restriction, with every train operated under the Gatwick Express brand being barred. The one key difference if this is the case is that in the event of infringement, new ticket or PF are not an option, it is excess to the valid fare or prosecute.

It would seem slightly perverse putting such a restriction in the route field, but the same could be said of operator restrictions.

The fun test case could be a not Gatwick Express anytime ticket, as by definition surely such a ticket can't have any condition 12 time restrictions.

As you say a time restriction shouldn't be in the route field, so if they wanted to do this it would have to be similar to the GWR restriction code J9, and it wouldn't be applicable to Anytime tickets.

 

[clagmonster]

Agreed, but that's exactly how it was, when it was a separate TOC. It's now meaningless, as there is no TOC of that name, so it's valid on all trains along permitted routes.

Other similar routeings have been made redundant, so it's not a new situation. What is unique is the fact that after several months there is no sign of anything being done. I blame both DfT and Govia. ORR should step in also, as breaches of consumer law occur every time a passenger is wrongly sold a more expensive ticket than they need to pay.

As you say a time restriction shouldn't be in the route field, so if they wanted to do this it would have to be similar to the GWR restriction code J9, and it wouldn't be applicable to Anytime tickets.

I agree with the history of the routeing. My trouble is that unless I am missing something there is nothing in the NRCoC preventing such a condition 14 restriction being printed on the ticket in such a way. I do agree that either it should be put in the time restriction as per convention and that, as is, the anytime tickets should either be renamed or have the not Gatwick Express wording removed.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Judging by the station information screens, what is being said is 'This service is only available to passengers holding ANY PERMITTED tickets only'.
No mention of Gatwick Express tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Judging by the station information screens, what is being said is 'This service is only available to passengers holding ANY PERMITTED tickets only'.

Indeed, which is completely wrong. All valid tickets must be accepted, in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

No mention of Gatwick Express tickets.

There aren't any tickets I know of with such a routeing; they are routed "Any Permitted". See Gatwick Express Delay Repay; the train operating company can argue that anyone holding such a ticket isn't paying for the Gatwick Express branded trains but merely the right to catch any train. (ignoring the validity of other tickets, which appear to me to be the same!)

 

[talldave]

There are GATWICK EXP MOB tickets, although since they're only for smart cards and phones they're not tickets as we know them .