Gdansk tram contactless journey record

[miklcct]

Hi all,

I am suspecting some overcharging on a tram in Gdansk. I took one single tram journey on route 8, boarded at 2024-08-26 14:06:00 on vehicle 1023 from Chmielna to Plac Solidarności, tapped my contactless card in order to start a journey. The validator machine showed something which I was not sure and disappeared soon, and eventually after some fiddling I could set the machine to English, and showed "journey started" when I tapped my card.

The bank statement showed that it charged 9.60 PLN at 13:09 (i.e. 14:09 in Polish time), so I suspected it charged me twice despite I was using one card only on the tram. Is there a equivalent of TfL Oyster account on ZTM where I can confirm my journey record to see if I was overcharged, and to resolve the matter?

 

[rg177]

From what you've described it's very possible that you've validated twice. On some systems, it is indeed possible that you simply tap a card for the number of times you want to validate (eg. if travelling with others).

If this is the case, you haven't been overcharged, you've just bought two tickets. As per this link:

If you need to pay for a single standard journey, all you need to do is place your ATM card on one of the readers. The device will automatically charge the card 4.80 PLN for a standard ticket - the transaction will be recorded on the card and this is a confirmation in case inspectors come.

It's possible that there's also just been a technical hiccup, but I would wager that there's no back office system anywhere near as sophisticated as the one used on TfL (considering that you just tap once to buy a single ticket and that's it) and very little chance of recouping this charge.

 

[miklcct]

On some systems, it is indeed possible that you simply tap a card for the number of times you want to validate (eg. if travelling with others).

If this is the case it looks like a major design flaw. In both Hong Kong and London, it is not possible to use one card in quick succession on the same machine to avoid multiple charges.

Also, it mentions that the validated card itself is the proof of payment. If that's the case, how is it possible to have multiple validations in case of ticket inspection?

It's possible that there's also just been a technical hiccup, but I would wager that there's no back office system anywhere near as sophisticated as the one used on TfL (considering that you just tap once to buy a single ticket and that's it) and very little chance of recouping this charge.

I did not buy a ticket. It was a PAYG system, where a validated card was the proof of payment, and no physical ticket was printed by tapping my card on it.

I was aware that the payment system was in testing phase but unfortunately it was not possible for me to buy any physical tickets (there were no ticket machines at the tram stop) or use a mobile app to buy a ticket (one required a Polish number, another required topping up by a large amount before a ticket could be purchased), so it was the only option for me to pay for my travel.

 

[Alfonso]

There are certainly other systems that let you tap repeatedly to buy multiple tickets. Regardless of your rights and chances of getting this rectified, it's likely to take a lot more than c.£1 of your time unless you place an exceeding low value on your time or an exceedingly high value on making consumer complaints.

 

[miklcct]

I've just sent an email to the customer service and will wait for the reply before deciding my further course of action. I hope that they can sort out the matter for me.

A year ago, I encountered duplicate charges for online shopping to buy an electronic journal article and unfortunately the customer service was incompetent, and I ended up opening a dispute with my bank which got my money back (it was a huge amount - the article was very expensive), and I don't wish that I have to use this route for this circumstance.

 

[The exile]

If this is the case it looks like a major design flaw. In both Hong Kong and London, it is not possible to use one card in quick succession on the same machine to avoid multiple charges.

Also, it mentions that the validated card itself is the proof of payment. If that's the case, how is it possible to have multiple validations in case of ticket inspection?

If a detector can detect one recent purchase (given that most European systems operate on time-based validity, rather than journey-based), then it can surely detect two or more. If the system is designed to allow one person to pay for others, then it is a design feature, not a design flaw. You’ve just been caught out by something you’re not used to - which is always a risk when somewhere you’re not familiar with (and why I tend to go for day tickets if I can).

 

[miklcct]

If a detector can detect one recent purchase (given that most European systems operate on time-based validity, rather than journey-based), then it can surely detect two or more. If the system is designed to allow one person to pay for others, then it is a design feature, not a design flaw. You’ve just been caught out by something you’re not used to - which is always a risk when somewhere you’re not familiar with (and why I tend to go for day tickets if I can).

My journey that day was from Gdynia Główna to Gdańsk Śródmieście on suburban train, then Chmielna to Plac Solidarności on tram, then Gdańsk Główny to Gdańsk Port Lotniczy on suburban and regional trains. I didn't even plan to take the tram at the first place. A day ticket was clearly inappropriate to my circumstances (also in general I rarely buy day tickets because I usually only travel for 1, 2 or 3 journeys per day).

 

[The exile]

My journey that day was from Gdynia Główna to Gdańsk Śródmieście on suburban train, then Chmielna to Plac Solidarności on tram, then Gdańsk Główny to Gdańsk Port Lotniczy on suburban and regional trains. I didn't even plan to take the tram at the first place. A day ticket was clearly inappropriate to my circumstances (also in general I rarely buy day tickets because I usually only travel for 1, 2 or 3 journeys per day).

When I was in the area (which admittedly was 10 years ago) the period tickets covered all of that. I think I used a 3 -day ticket, but it would be unusual if there were not also a day version.

 

[miklcct]

When I was in the area (which admittedly was 10 years ago) the period tickets covered all of that. I think I used a 3 -day ticket, but it would be unusual if there were not also a day version.

A day ticket which covers everything in the Tricity is much more expensive than 3 separate single tickets.

Update:

I have received a reply from the customer service. They told me that I tapped my card on the reader twice, one second apart (13:59:00 and 13:59:01), and two times PLN 4.80 were charged. They also sent me a link to the portal of the FALA system which I couldn't find on the Gdansk city transport website.

I have replied with a message that no PAYG system should double charge in such scenario and asked them to revert one of the two transactions, or I may have to file a dispute with my bank.

 

[The exile]

A day ticket which covers everything in the Tricity is much more expensive than 3 separate single tickets.

Update:

I have received a reply from the customer service. They told me that I tapped my card on the reader twice, one second apart (13:59:00 and 13:59:01), and two times PLN 4.80 were charged. They also sent me a link to the portal of the FALA system which I couldn't find on the Gdansk city transport website.

I have replied with a message that no PAYG system should double charge in such scenario and asked them to revert one of the two transactions, or I may have to file a dispute with my bank.

You seem to be prepared to invest an inordinate amount of time to recover 93p. Each to his own, I suppose….

 

[miklcct]

You seem to be prepared to invest an inordinate amount of time to recover 93p. Each to his own, I suppose….

The nature of this problem was the same as one I encountered in the past with an online shopping website, which charged me 6 times USD 25 before I got a transaction success message. I eventually made a dispute after the customer service refunded 4 of them, but insisted me that there were only 5 transactions while the bank record clearly showed 6, and the dispute was accepted without any hassle.

 

[Beebman]

There are certainly other systems that let you tap repeatedly to buy multiple tickets. Regardless of your rights and chances of getting this rectified, it's likely to take a lot more than c.£1 of your time unless you place an exceeding low value on your time or an exceedingly high value on making consumer complaints.

Just as a data point, I visited Sofia at the weekend and made some journeys on the city's Metro using contactless on my Visa card - on Friday I made one journey from the airport and I was charged 71p but on the Saturday I made a number of journeys and I was charged the capped amount of £1.77.

 

[skyhigh]

I have replied with a message that no PAYG system should double charge in such scenario and asked them to revert one of the two transactions, or I may have to file a dispute with my bank.

Just my opinion but...
You made a mistake, their system worked as designed. For less than a pound just let it go.

 

[Cloud Strife]

From what I understand, Gdańsk has gone with a hybrid system of contactless ticket machines. The "czytnik" (reader) sells only single tickets for 4.80zł and is tap and go, whereas the Falomat (FALA ticket machine) requires you to select your ticket first. Each vehicle should have at least one of each type of machine.

In this case, the "czytnik" worked as designed - it's there to quickly sell a 4.80zł ticket, nothing more.

 

[miklcct]

Just my opinion but...
You made a mistake, their system worked as designed. For less than a pound just let it go.

I have filed a dispute with my bank after contacting the customer service of the back.

From what I understand, Gdańsk has gone with a hybrid system of contactless ticket machines. The "czytnik" (reader) sells only single tickets for 4.80zł and is tap and go, whereas the Falomat (FALA ticket machine) requires you to select your ticket first. Each vehicle should have at least one of each type of machine.

In this case, the "czytnik" worked as designed - it's there to quickly sell a 4.80zł ticket, nothing more.

I am sure that I didn't select any ticket. The machine was on a tram.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I am sure that I didn't select any ticket. The machine was on a tram.

Yup, you probably used the "czytnik", which are tap and go. The design of them is that you don't need to select a ticket, it just automatically sells you the 4.80zł ticket.