Harrogate line improvements

[numero uno]

Given the government seems to be cancelling railway projects left, right and centre does anybody have any information about the plans for the Harrogate line?

Last i'd heard North Yorkshire County Council had allocated funds to double track some of the route between Knaresborough and York but there doesn't seem to be any news available on when work on this is actually going to commence.

This was supposedly going to be followed by re-signaling in CP6 along with electrification but I guess these are going to be put on the back burner as well.

I'd also heard talk that there were 'plans' for a platform zero in Leeds and platform 12 in York to better accommodate Harrogate trains and allow improved services.

Finally, in January the Harrogate Advertiser reported that Ripon City Council had agreed to underwrite £18,000 towards a feasibility study into the reinstatement of the line to Ripon. There's been nothing reported since though, is this study underway?

I have to travel on this route everyday for work and it'd be nice to know some of these plans were actually going to become reality.

 

[MarkRedon]

In January the Harrogate Advertiser reported that Ripon City Council had agreed to underwrite £18,000 towards a feasibility study into the reinstatement of the line to Ripon. There's been nothing reported since though, is this study underway?

I have to travel on this route everyday for work and it'd be nice to know some of these plans were actually going to become reality.

The article you mention is at:
http://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.u...-a-ripon-railway-given-the-go-ahead-1-8328551

£18,000 study investigating feasibility of a Ripon railway given the go-ahead
...
The Mayor of Ripon, Coun Adrian Morgan, said: "This will be fantastic for Ripon, it is 50 years in March since we lost the railway. I came to Ripon just as it closed in 1967, and I have watched Ripon's economy very slowly decline. "The teacher training college provided Ripon with £4m for the local economy, and the principal of the college told me that it was closing because of the railway closing. People were going to York for the rail line. "We are looking at having a train every 30 minutes from Ripon at the moment. "It is great news that I have got the council on my side and that everyone is pulling in the same direction. It was a huge loss for Ripon when the railway closed, and it would give the city such a boost. "It will be a long time before a railway returns to Ripon if this goes ahead. We would probably be looking at 10 years, but the study is a move forward."

Read more at: http://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/news/transport

This funding won't pay for anything serious in terms of the GRIP process and can only be one of several necessary sources.

An earlier thread discusses this topic in more detail:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122586

 

[numero uno]

I've been through that thread but the last post was in April 2016. I've seen a statement from NYCC dated October 2016 regarding funding for the feasibility study that mentioned that Network Rail was considering opportunities for a diversionary route between York and Newcastle. It went on to say that NYCC wanted to meet with Network Rail to establish if there was support in the rail industry for the line before committing funding to a feasibility study and that NYCC expected Ripon CC, Harrogate BC and Hambleton DC to also contribute.

So clearly the picture has progressed since any discussion was last had in that thread. It appears Ripon CC quickly jumped on board but it's been over 6 months since then and there's been nothing more on the subject.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I've been through that thread but the last post was in April 2016. I've seen a statement from NYCC dated October 2016 regarding funding for the feasibility study that mentioned that Network Rail was considering opportunities for a diversionary route between York and Newcastle. It went on to say that NYCC wanted to meet with Network Rail to establish if there was support in the rail industry for the line before committing funding to a feasibility study and that NYCC expected Ripon CC, Harrogate BC and Hambleton DC to also contribute.

So clearly the picture has progressed since any discussion was last had in that thread. It appears Ripon CC quickly jumped on board but it's been over 6 months since then and there's been nothing more on the subject.

I wouldn't take that too seriously. The only reason such a diversion might be worth funding is to separate freight flows from higher speed passenger services. But as elsewhere on the network freight has been in rapid decline and the remaining volume is not really a problem. Going forward the flow most likely to increase might be imported bio-fuel (wood pellets) from Tyne Dock to Drax but if the volume became significant it would be much cheaper to build a new import facility on Humberside than to build a new rail route to accommodate it.

 

[47802]

Given the government seems to be cancelling railway projects left, right and centre does anybody have any information about the plans for the Harrogate line?

Last i'd heard North Yorkshire County Council had allocated funds to double track some of the route between Knaresborough and York but there doesn't seem to be any news available on when work on this is actually going to commence.

This was supposedly going to be followed by re-signaling in CP6 along with electrification but I guess these are going to be put on the back burner as well.

I'd also heard talk that there were 'plans' for a platform zero in Leeds and platform 12 in York to better accommodate Harrogate trains and allow improved services.

Finally, in January the Harrogate Advertiser reported that Ripon City Council had agreed to underwrite £18,000 towards a feasibility study into the reinstatement of the line to Ripon. There's been nothing reported since though, is this study underway?

I have to travel on this route everyday for work and it'd be nice to know some of these plans were actually going to become reality.

I think the primary improvements to the Harrogate line are likely to be mainly limited to the improved Timetable being offered from December with and extras 2 trains between Leeds and Harrogate per hour which will be limited stop, eventually better rolling stock with elimination of Pacers, 170's have been mentioned for this route but whether that's cast in stone remains to be seen, and a better London service when IET's arrive.

Electrification of this route makes a lot of sense to me as its fairly self contained, but I doubt it will happen any time soon, and as for Ripon I personally doubt it will happen in my lifetime if at all.

 

[snowball]

There's someone on here (is it deltic08?) who has talked a lot about reopening railways in N Yorks, and specifically Ripon. Maybe his group submitted a suggestion, and NR politely said they would consider it, and that's the origin of the statement that "NR are considering opportunities for a diversionary route between York and Newcastle".

 

[numero uno]

I think the primary improvements to the Harrogate line are likely to be mainly limited to the improved Timetable being offered from December with and extras 2 trains between Leeds and Harrogate per hour which will be limited stop, eventually better rolling stock with elimination of Pacers, 170's have been mentioned for this route but whether that's cast in stone remains to be seen, and a better London service when IET's arrive.

Electrification of this route makes a lot of sense to me as its fairly self contained, but I doubt it will happen any time soon, and as for Ripon I personally doubt it will happen in my lifetime if at all.

As far as i'm aware the improved timetable for December is 4tph between Leeds and Harrogate, with 2tph all stops and the other 2tph being express services calling only at Horsforth, along with 2tph Leeds to Knaresborough between 10:00 and 20:00 on Sundays. The line is supposed to be running 170s cascaded from ScotRail along with refurbished 150s.

I believe those are the changes that are essentially set in stone. Then there is the parkway station for LBA, which Leeds Council has funding for from the failed NGT project, and the double tracking which NYCC apparently allocated funds for and was supposedly going to be completed for 2018. Re-signaling was supposed to have been done during CP5 and was pushed back to CP6.

 

[skyhigh]

About a year ago there was someone measuring up and inspecting the platforms at Burley Park to put in a quote for their replacement which was needed due to 'the new trains coming' - haven't heard or seen anything about that since though.

 

[lejog]

There's someone on here (is it deltic08?) who has talked a lot about reopening railways in N Yorks, and specifically Ripon. Maybe his group submitted a suggestion, and NR politely said they would consider it, and that's the origin of the statement that "NR are considering opportunities for a diversionary route between York and Newcastle".

According to the last post in the earlier thread linked to in post #2, group may be an exaggeration, a more singular term may be more appropriate.

 

[deltic08]

According to the last post in the earlier thread linked to in post #2, group may be an exaggeration, a more singular term may be more appropriate.

Well here's something to chew on straight from the horses mouth on the subject.

In my discussion with the NR route director over installation of former Dragon Junction in Harrogate concurrently with resignalling Harrogate-York, I was informed that resignalling has been put back into CP8, 2029 at the earliest, because life extension work on the manual signalling had been authorised. Selby-Hull has priority. This does not prevent redoubling of Knaresborough-Cattal funded by NYCC or installing Dragon junction as part of reinstating to Ripon but has knocked electrification on the head east of Harrogate in the foreseeable future.

Secondly, the high speed cut-off from Garforth to Northallerton avoiding York has been shelved in favour of upgrading York-Darlington to 140mph and a new 140mph line from Darlington to Newcastle to achieve a target time of 60 minutes Leeds-Newcastle via York. A new station is planned at Darlington each side of the ECML to avoid Up trains crossing the Down Fast twice each time they stop. Northallerton-Darlington will be quadrupled and the Leamside line will be reinstated.

If you look at the latest Transport for the North publication dated June or July 2017 you will see a very colourful illustration of the seven rail corridors in the North that will be improved. The Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton-Teesside/Tyneside corridor is one that TfN is promoting to free up capacity on the ECML for these faster trains. By building platforms on the low level loop at Northallerton, TPE services to/from Middlesborough can avoid the grade junction to the north of Northallerton and station dwell time on the Up and Down Fasts as well as a link to Harrogate.

At a National meeting in York that I attended where this report was launched, reinstating Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was given as an example of ways that capacity and connectivity could be improved for very little cost. Currently TfN are considering 120 rail improvement schemes where (re)instatement is required from additional chords to whole routes.

Reopening Skipton-Colne was another example but mainly to enable flows of stone traffic from Grassington to Lancashire and biomass from Liverpool to Drax to create passenger capacity on other trans Pennine routes.

 

[DarloRich]

Well here's something to chew on straight from the horses mouth on the subject.

In my discussion with the NR route director over installation of former Dragon Junction in Harrogate concurrently with resignalling Harrogate-York, I was informed that resignalling has been put back into CP8, 2029 at the earliest, because life extension work on the manual signalling had been authorised. Selby-Hull has priority. This does not prevent redoubling of Knaresborough-Cattal funded by NYCC or installing Dragon junction as part of reinstating to Ripon but has knocked electrification on the head east of Harrogate in the foreseeable future.

Secondly, the high speed cut-off from Garforth to Northallerton avoiding York has been shelved in favour of upgrading York-Darlington to 140mph and a new 140mph line from Darlington to Newcastle to achieve a target time of 60 minutes Leeds-Newcastle via York. A new station is planned at Darlington each side of the ECML to avoid Up trains crossing the Down Fast twice each time they stop. Northallerton-Darlington will be quadrupled and the Leamside line will be reinstated.

If you look at the latest Transport for the North publication dated June or July 2017 you will see a very colourful illustration of the seven rail corridors in the North that will be improved. The Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton-Teesside/Tyneside corridor is one that TfN is promoting to free up capacity on the ECML for these faster trains. By building platforms on the low level loop at Northallerton, TPE services to/from Middlesborough can avoid the grade junction to the north of Northallerton and station dwell time on the Up and Down Fasts as well as a link to Harrogate.

At a National meeting in York that I attended where this report was launched, reinstating Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was given as an example of ways that capacity and connectivity could be improved for very little cost. Currently TfN are considering 120 rail improvement schemes where (re)instatement is required from additional chords to whole routes.

Reopening Skipton-Colne was another example but mainly to enable flows of stone traffic from Grassington to Lancashire and biomass from Liverpool to Drax to create passenger capacity on other trans Pennine routes.

Where to even start with that pile of pies in the sky :roll:

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Well here's something to chew on straight from the horses mouth on the subject.

In my discussion with the NR route director over installation of former Dragon Junction in Harrogate concurrently with resignalling Harrogate-York, I was informed that resignalling has been put back into CP8, 2029 at the earliest, because life extension work on the manual signalling had been authorised. Selby-Hull has priority. This does not prevent redoubling of Knaresborough-Cattal funded by NYCC or installing Dragon junction as part of reinstating to Ripon but has knocked electrification on the head east of Harrogate in the foreseeable future.

Secondly, the high speed cut-off from Garforth to Northallerton avoiding York has been shelved in favour of upgrading York-Darlington to 140mph and a new 140mph line from Darlington to Newcastle to achieve a target time of 60 minutes Leeds-Newcastle via York. A new station is planned at Darlington each side of the ECML to avoid Up trains crossing the Down Fast twice each time they stop. Northallerton-Darlington will be quadrupled and the Leamside line will be reinstated.

If you look at the latest Transport for the North publication dated June or July 2017 you will see a very colourful illustration of the seven rail corridors in the North that will be improved. The Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton-Teesside/Tyneside corridor is one that TfN is promoting to free up capacity on the ECML for these faster trains. By building platforms on the low level loop at Northallerton, TPE services to/from Middlesborough can avoid the grade junction to the north of Northallerton and station dwell time on the Up and Down Fasts as well as a link to Harrogate.

At a National meeting in York that I attended where this report was launched, reinstating Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was given as an example of ways that capacity and connectivity could be improved for very little cost. Currently TfN are considering 120 rail improvement schemes where (re)instatement is required from additional chords to whole routes.

Reopening Skipton-Colne was another example but mainly to enable flows of stone traffic from Grassington to Lancashire and biomass from Liverpool to Drax to create passenger capacity on other trans Pennine routes.

The TfN report states very clearly that it is nothing more than a "positioning statement", hardly surprising since TfN doesn't even have statutory status yet. None of the ideas in the report, which includes a substantial list of possible road schemes as well, have even the vaguest costings attached and as we don't yet have a clear idea of just what sort of funding will be available to TfN all we can be sure of is that the delivery of any of the ideas is many, many years ahead in the future. It is telling that Network Rail is planning on the basis of nothing at all happening between Harrogate, Ripon and Northallerton.

As and when TfN becomes a more meaningful organisation I think it is reasonable to expect that realism will see a drastic reduction in the crayonista thinking and more concentration on schemes capable of being delivered reasonably quickly and with reasonable financial return, whatever method is used to measure it. HS2 is more or less a twenty year project but is a national scheme: I would be very surprised if central government will ever allow regional bodies to get involved with schemes of such grandiosity. Small steps...

 

[deltic08]

Where to even start with that pile of pies in the sky :roll:

As you are not involved in reinstatement of my line and weren't at any of the meetings I was at, especially the face to face meetings with NYCC, NR and Rail North, your comment is unhelpful and irrelevant to the question asked. In fact your posts are so repetitive to the point of boring.

 

[DarloRich]

As you are not involved in reinstatement of my line and weren't at any of the meetings I was at, especially the face to face meetings with NYCC, NR and Rail North, your comment is unhelpful and irrelevant to the question asked. In fact your posts are so repetitive to the point of boring.

Tough. Very little of that statement above will happen any time before the next ice age if at all. It wont be in CP6 for certain.

As for what you have been told: I think you hear what you want to hear from any meetings you attend and take strategic blandishments as concrete promises. Words are fine but they need to be backed up by cold hard cash and lots of it. Any ideas where that money will come from? Any idea how much cash NYCC are prepared to invest in an extension to Ripon or when? it is very easy for politicos to support something. It is less easy for them to support something with the required cash to help make it happen.

The vision set out in your post is fine but it is 15 to 20 years away with no actual commitment or funding to deliver it. Lovely words but nothing more at this stage.

As I have said I think a case can be made for Ripon, just, if you take a rose tinted view of the finances and don't ask too many questions about the accuracy of some of the figures quoted. However it will be very hard to obtain funding in the current environment. Very hard indeed. It will require substantial third party funding from the county council and others. I maintain there is no case at all for anything beyond Ripon and I also maintain it wont happen any time soon.

However you do have two new options open to you and by you i mean the group pressing for a new line. The first is to have the line built by private investors and if the demand and business case are as strong as you suggest that should see private companies lining up to deliver the work. That aside the environment for "sponsoring" a new line has will change in the next control period. The NR routes will be much more autonomous and will be empowered to deliver "what their customer wants". This means that political pressure can move this proposed line up the agenda and it also means that a key driver becomes commitment from the TOC. You need to get Northern to indicate to NR that this line is one of their top priorities and that they feel that as a business they are suffering without it. You also need to get Virgin to be at least ambivalent as they will hold most of the card with the route. That will mean you get much more interest from the route.

 

[class 9]

I wouldn't take that too seriously. The only reason such a diversion might be worth funding is to separate freight flows from higher speed passenger services. But as elsewhere on the network freight has been in rapid decline and the remaining volume is not really a problem. Going forward the flow most likely to increase might be imported bio-fuel (wood pellets) from Tyne Dock to Drax but if the volume became significant it would be much cheaper to build a new import facility on Humberside than to build a new rail route to accommodate it.

There is a biomass import terminal at Immingham already.

 

[furnessvale]

I wouldn't take that too seriously. The only reason such a diversion might be worth funding is to separate freight flows from higher speed passenger services. But as elsewhere on the network freight has been in rapid decline and the remaining volume is not really a problem. Going forward the flow most likely to increase might be imported bio-fuel (wood pellets) from Tyne Dock to Drax but if the volume became significant it would be much cheaper to build a new import facility on Humberside than to build a new rail route to accommodate it.

The main decline in freight has been coal traffic which has traditionally been on certain specific routes.

Most other traffics,especially intermodal, continue to increase. If the route in question is a traditional coal route,your comment is valid. If not, then some measure of freight relief could well be needed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is a biomass import terminal at Immingham already.

The main decline in freight has been coal traffic which has traditionally been on certain specific routes.

Most other traffics,especially intermodal, continue to increase. If the route in question is a traditional coal route,your comment is valid. If not, then some measure of freight relief could well be needed.

These comments prompted me to have a look at RTT to see what is happening currently.

The number of freights on the ECML north of York barely reaches one per hour (in total) across the day and includes a number of coal trains and their associated empties. Said coal trains will be history in a few years. It also appears that biomass imports through Tyne Dock are barely generating a single train each day, though doubtless more would run in winter, and Drax is already receiving some biomass from the Immingham terminal. That does not paint a picture of a route needing any sort of relief from freight movements.

Of course intermodal traffic may well increase with time but given the distance of run needed to put such traffic on rail I wouldn't expect the ECML to see that much of it north of York: the WCML is a much better route for traffic to/from Scotland and Teesside/Tyneside, sadly, are not regions likely to generate too much demand. The most likely need for rail network improvements to accommodate any such traffic would be suitable loops and let the timetable planners do the rest! [/OT]

 

[deltic08]

Tough. Very little of that statement above will happen any time before the next ice age if at all. It wont be in CP6 for certain.

As for what you have been told: I think you hear what you want to hear from any meetings you attend and take strategic blandishments as concrete promises. Words are fine but they need to be backed up by cold hard cash and lots of it. Any ideas where that money will come from? Any idea how much cash NYCC are prepared to invest in an extension to Ripon or when? it is very easy for politicos to support something. It is less easy for them to support something with the required cash to help make it happen.

The vision set out in your post is fine but it is 15 to 20 years away with no actual commitment or funding to deliver it. Lovely words but nothing more at this stage.

As I have said I think a case can be made for Ripon, just, if you take a rose tinted view of the finances and don't ask too many questions about the accuracy of some of the figures quoted. However it will be very hard to obtain funding in the current environment. Very hard indeed. It will require substantial third party funding from the county council and others. I maintain there is no case at all for anything beyond Ripon and I also maintain it wont happen any time soon.

However you do have two new options open to you and by you i mean the group pressing for a new line. The first is to have the line built by private investors and if the demand and business case are as strong as you suggest that should see private companies lining up to deliver the work. That aside the environment for "sponsoring" a new line has will change in the next control period. The NR routes will be much more autonomous and will be empowered to deliver "what their customer wants". This means that political pressure can move this proposed line up the agenda and it also means that a key driver becomes commitment from the TOC. You need to get Northern to indicate to NR that this line is one of their top priorities and that they feel that as a business they are suffering without it. You also need to get Virgin to be at least ambivalent as they will hold most of the card with the route. That will mean you get much more interest from the route.

I do not and never have had tinted glasses of any colour. To get to where we are now has been 30 years of bloody hard graft.
I also know everything about reinstating railways grinds inexplicably slowly compared to roads but it will not happen by sitting back and hoping it will happen. Junction installation at Harrogate concurrently with resignalling Harrogate-York in 2019/20 was a real possibility but that has now been put back to CP8. The only consolation is that it is simpler to install the junction in a manual signalling set-up.

NYCC "promised" reinstatement by 2045 but that is too far away for the financial health of Ripon. It is struggling unlike other market towns in North Yorkshire as they are all rail connected except Richmond and Ripon. 15 years for reinstating Harrogate-Ripon is a target.

As for the rest of your post, we are already familiar with its content. You failed to mention the option of NR building it and leasing it back to NYCC or an operator or both on an annual basis, but of course you were not at the meetings I was at where all options were discussed.

The real victim in this is electrification of the Harrogate Loop. It will not go ahead now until after Harrogate-York is resignalled in 2029 unless of course Leeds-Harrogate is wired and bi-mode 319s introduced instead of 170s.

 

[deltic08]

These comments prompted me to have a look at RTT to see what is happening currently.

The number of freights on the ECML north of York barely reaches one per hour (in total) across the day and includes a number of coal trains and their associated empties. Said coal trains will be history in a few years. It also appears that biomass imports through Tyne Dock are barely generating a single train each day, though doubtless more would run in winter, and Drax is already receiving some biomass from the Immingham terminal. That does not paint a picture of a route needing any sort of relief from freight movements.

Of course intermodal traffic may well increase with time but given the distance of run needed to put such traffic on rail I wouldn't expect the ECML to see that much of it north of York: the WCML is a much better route for traffic to/from Scotland and Teesside/Tyneside, sadly, are not regions likely to generate too much demand. The most likely need for rail network improvements to accommodate any such traffic would be suitable loops and let the timetable planners do the rest! [/OT]

Intermodal traffic from Essex ports only goes WCML because there is not room between Bury St. Edmunds and Ely and Peterborough and Doncaster. That is why freight is being diverted via Lincoln. If only March-Spalding and Woodhead were still open. We are paying for previous generations making stupid, short sighted blunders.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[InOban]

As far as I can understand the maps, there will shortly be a W12 route from Felixstowe to Scotland using the ECML, except that the trains will go between Peterborough and Doncaster by Lincoln. The WCML remains W10. As a result, there may be a shift in freight routings?

 

[Ploughman]

What does freight from Felixstowe have to do with Harrogate other than going off topic?

 

[DarloRich]

I do not and never have had tinted glasses of any colour. To get to where we are now has been 30 years of bloody hard graft.
I also know everything about reinstating railways grinds inexplicably slowly compared to roads but it will not happen by sitting back and hoping it will happen. Junction installation at Harrogate concurrently with resignalling Harrogate-York in 2019/20 was a real possibility but that has now been put back to CP8. The only consolation is that it is simpler to install the junction in a manual signalling set-up.

That time slippage is where the local authorities need to step up and persuade NR to move the junction installation works closer to the suggested early dates. They need to offer proper funding to help that happen. Doing that work now also helps to spread the cost of the re building works and makes the rest of the business case slightly easier to justify.

Of course people have to work at making things happen. I just wonder about the realism of some of the suggested ideas. Personally I would aim for a very simple single track branch perhaps without signalling but even that will struggle in the face of the current issues in funding. I also struggle with whether Ripon, in itself, will actually generate enough traffic ( and thus profit) to justify the expense of building a 12 ( ish) mile dead end branch line with no intermediate settlements of any standing or freight to bolster traffic.

NYCC "promised" reinstatement by 2045 but that is too far away for the financial health of Ripon. It is struggling unlike other market towns in North Yorkshire as they are all rail connected except Richmond and Ripon. 15 years for reinstating Harrogate-Ripon is a target.

I agree that 2045 is far too long a time period for restoration and suggests "kicking into the long grass". NYCC should get serious and invest proper funds in making this happen sooner if there is such a strong case for the line. NY is a rich, rural county without much of the social deprivation issues of nearby councils and should have plenty of cash to help. However, that lack of financial interest is why I doubt their motives and continue to believe public proclamations are fluff designed to keep the local voters on side while having a convenient baddie to blame for not making things happen. As I say public support, while important, costs nothing.

BTW Ripon is a lovely little city with a fine Cathedral, a racecourse where I have lost far too much money over the years and several fine pubs but the main tourist attractions ( Fountains Abbey/Studley Royal & Lightwater Valley) are not close to the area a station could be built. Getting people there will need sensible bus links. Will a railway station really drive that much extra tourist traffic? The whole place always seems more suitable as a base to explore the local area by car than a destination in its own right. (that isnt meant as a criticism more a view of the area for "outsiders")

Perhaps the recently announced desktop feasibility study will help answer those questions. I look forward to reading it.

As for the rest of your post, we are already familiar with its content. You failed to mention the option of NR building it and leasing it back to NYCC or an operator or both on an annual basis, but of course you were not at the meetings I was at where all options were discussed.

You are, of course, quite right. They are options to be explored. Personally I discount them for reasons of practicality. My view is that private investment is likely to lead to a lease to rather than from NR.

The real victim in this is electrification of the Harrogate Loop. It will not go ahead now until after Harrogate-York is resignalled in 2029 unless of course Leeds-Harrogate is wired and bi-mode 319s introduced instead of 170s.

Perversely I feel that makes a reinstatement of the Ripon branch more not less likely! Again on a practical view it reduces the cost to build the line and allows inter operation of the rolling stock serving Harrogate reducing complications for the operator. I assume the idea would be to extend a train that currently terminates at Harrogate to Ripon.

That said is the key for the Harrogate line not to get better quality stock asap?

 

[InOban]

What does freight from Felixstowe have to do with Harrogate other than going off topic?

Sorry. I realised just as I posted that I had wandered!

 

[furnessvale]

Sorry. I realised just as I posted that I had wandered!

You have not wandered.

Earlier in the thread there was mention of using the Harrogate line as freight relief for ECML. The possibility of more Felixstowe freight using ECML, and by implication the Harrogate line, is therefore very much on topic.

 

[IanXC]

The Harrogate line will be getting better stocks in the shape of class 170s.

The question of diversionary freight relates to the top level scheme which opens up a route from Harrogate to Northallerton via Ripon (and avoiding York).

NYCC have previously proposed that a TPE service be diverted this way, so as to give Harrogate a northbound express service rather than requiring a change in York. It's perhaps not just about getting Ripon on the rail map, it's about Harrogate's connectivity too.

 

[johntea]

Harrogate already has very good links to Ripon anyway, just catch the bus from the bus station literally next to the rail station

In fact a bit of a shame really that Northern and Transdev can't work together and come up with a combined fare, think there are bus trips elsewhere in the rail system (not PlusBus)?

 

[deltic08]

That time slippage is where the local authorities need to step up and persuade NR to move the junction installation works closer to the suggested early dates. They need to offer proper funding to help that happen. Doing that work now also helps to spread the cost of the re building works and makes the rest of the business case slightly easier to justify.

Of course people have to work at making things happen. I just wonder about the realism of some of the suggested ideas. Personally I would aim for a very simple single track branch perhaps without signalling but even that will struggle in the face of the current issues in funding. I also struggle with whether Ripon, in itself, will actually generate enough traffic ( and thus profit) to justify the expense of building a 12 ( ish) mile dead end branch line with no intermediate settlements of any standing or freight to bolster traffic.



I agree that 2045 is far too long a time period for restoration and suggests "kicking into the long grass". NYCC should get serious and invest proper funds in making this happen sooner if there is such a strong case for the line. NY is a rich, rural county without much of the social deprivation issues of nearby councils and should have plenty of cash to help. However, that lack of financial interest is why I doubt their motives and continue to believe public proclamations are fluff designed to keep the local voters on side while having a convenient baddie to blame for not making things happen. As I say public support, while important, costs nothing.

BTW Ripon is a lovely little city with a fine Cathedral, a racecourse where I have lost far too much money over the years and several fine pubs but the main tourist attractions ( Fountains Abbey/Studley Royal & Lightwater Valley) are not close to the area a station could be built. Getting people there will need sensible bus links. Will a railway station really drive that much extra tourist traffic? The whole place always seems more suitable as a base to explore the local area by car than a destination in its own right. (that isnt meant as a criticism more a view of the area for "outsiders")

Perhaps the recently announced desktop feasibility study will help answer those questions. I look forward to reading it.



You are, of course, quite right. They are options to be explored. Personally I discount them for reasons of practicality. My view is that private investment is likely to lead to a lease to rather than from NR.



Perversely I feel that makes a reinstatement of the Ripon branch more not less likely! Again on a practical view it reduces the cost to build the line and allows inter operation of the rolling stock serving Harrogate reducing complications for the operator. I assume the idea would be to extend a train that currently terminates at Harrogate to Ripon.

That said is the key for the Harrogate line not to get better quality stock asap?

The next study will, for the first time, look at the demand and advantages of reinstating the whole route as a second route between Leeds/West Yorkshire and Teesside. Evidently there is a huge untapped market between the two areas. One TPE train an hour is not enough and Teesside has enough population for two trains an hour but there is insufficient capacity on the ECML for a second train an hour to stop at Northallerton. Capacity will be increased by removing the current Teesside train from dwelling at Northallerton on the fast lines and the conflicting move by down trains crossing the Up fast on the flat. This can be corrected by building two platforms on the low level loop for all Teesside passenger trains from York and from Ripon/Harrogate if that happens.

It would also allow connection between two of Northerns areas of operation.

In the 2005/6 study, forecast footfall at Ripon generated purely by people in Ripon was 0.73m annually, almost identical to Skipton actual footfall in 2005/6. Visitors to Ripon (1.2m annually) using rail were discounted as an unknown quantity but realistically up to 8%could use rail.

Planned population growth of 50% in the LDF by 2025 will up the footfall as employment for that many in Ripon will have to be in the bigger centres of Leeds, York and Teesside.

Harrogate needs another railhead in the Bilton area. The plan is to install the former Dragon Junction as a single lead off the Up York line asap together with a short spur to the former Bilton Junction with a very basic single platform there. Harrogate-Dragon Junction would be reversible working on the Up York line giving access to platforms 1 and/or 3 at Harrogate by a trailing crossover. The two additional Leeds-Harrogate trains introduced in December can extend to this station and layover/turnback there off the "main" line instead of standing idle in Harrogate station for 24 minutes until the return path.

I am pressing NYCC to install the double track from Knaresborough-Cattal asap and not wait till 2029. The money is there and allocated years ago. The longer it takes, the more expensive it will become until £11m is not enough. Harrogate-York growth is being stifled by lack of action.

Yes, I know how lovely Ripon is. I came here 50 years ago, met my wife and stayed. I was lucky enough and very proud to be chosen as Mayor of Ripon in 2016. As Ripon is the only Cathedral City now in North Yorkshire, it brought me into contact regularly with those who can help in my fight to get this railway back to Ripon. It was in my year as Mayor that I persuaded Ripon City Council to contribute towards an updated feasibility study. NYCC has just in the last week offered a small contribution towards the study. Watch this space.

 

[HowardGWR]

Good luck to you Deltic08. I may have asked this before, but a possible Ripon station site does not present itself as central to Ripon. How do you propose visitors would access the central sites and from which location, - near the main roundabout?

Edit: PS The Bilton terminus does seem to be a no-brainer. Might need a car park nearby though?

 

[numero uno]

Harrogate needs another railhead in the Bilton area. The plan is to install the former Dragon Junction as a single lead off the Up York line asap together with a short spur to the former Bilton Junction with a very basic single platform there. Harrogate-Dragon Junction would be reversible working on the Up York line giving access to platforms 1 and/or 3 at Harrogate by a trailing crossover. The two additional Leeds-Harrogate trains introduced in December can extend to this station and layover/turnback there off the "main" line instead of standing idle in Harrogate station for 24 minutes until the return path.

So something like this then:

How would this affect the cycle path? Presumably the new track would simply align alongside the cycle path going from Harrogate to Bilton but it would need to intersect the cycle path from Starbeck at some point. With regards to reinstatement to Ripon as well, would the plan be to relay the track over the Nidd viaduct or construct a new crossing over the river?