Harwich Ferry

[peteb]

I note from the DB planner that if you travel from UK to europe avoiding ICE it sends you via Harwich. As I've noted on the TEE thread, with reduced air travel demand for eurostar is going to rise post covid, and thus fares will too inevitably. Not everyone relishes the idea of navigating two capital cities (London plus either Brussels or Paris) en route to other european destinations. So why not ease the potential overcrowding and introduce a cheaper mid-day sailing from Harwich. A 1230 or 1300 departure could be achievable using current sevice trains arriving Harwich 1117 from Newcastle, Leeds, Birmingham etc all not via London. Arrival in Amsterdam would be late, granted, 2330 ish, but other connections to Belgium and Germany not via Amsterdam are possible with a 2000 arrival in Holland. Might ease the lorry stacks in Kent too?

 

[Gloster]

Not impossible, but it would require another ship, which would also have a return trip at a time that might not be so attractive. For the Netherlands bound leg it would need staff to cater for the passengers, who wouldn’t have much to do on the return leg; nor can the space used to accommodate passengers eastbound be used for freight westbound. They have probably looked at this, but it is likely that it would need a substantial upswing in traffic to make it viable and that seems improbable at present. Chris Grayling might recommend it.

 

[biko]

I note from the DB planner that if you travel from UK to europe avoiding ICE it sends you via Harwich. As I've noted on the TEE thread, with reduced air travel demand for eurostar is going to rise post covid, and thus fares will too inevitably. Not everyone relishes the idea of navigating two capital cities (London plus either Brussels or Paris) en route to other european destinations. So why not ease the potential overcrowding and introduce a cheaper mid-day sailing from Harwich. A 1230 or 1300 departure could be achievable using current sevice trains arriving Harwich 1117 from Newcastle, Leeds, Birmingham etc all not via London. Arrival in Amsterdam would be late, granted, 2330 ish, but other connections to Belgium and Germany not via Amsterdam are possible with a 2000 arrival in Holland. Might ease the lorry stacks in Kent too?

But going to Harwich while avoiding London is quite difficult. I have looked at travelling from Harwich to the midlands before but it was just as much hassle avoiding London than via London. Also, using Eurostar is easy for most people in the UK. St Pancras is next to Kings Cross and Euston is walkable. Much better than changing at provincial stations on small trains.

On the continent, Brussels is one of the easiest interchanges as everything is at one station. From Hook of Holland, one needs to take the metro to Schiedam Centrum and then change to a train to Rotterdam before changing again for a train to Belgium or Germany. Actually, there are no direct trains to Germany from Rotterdam. So in my opinion there is no market for this as it is not easier nor quicker, maybe slightly cheaper. An extra sailing will only happen if there is freight demand. Foot passengers are then just extra income so might be transported.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I’ve posted about this in other threads, but it’s worth noting that Schiedam C (the nearest NS mainline station to Hoek, now that the metro has replaced rail services) is a valid start and end point for some very good DB Sparpreis Europa fares. On three occasions I’ve bought tickets between Schiedam and Umeå C in northern Sweden (with an extended overnight stop in Copenhagen) for €59. It’s worth pricing up your trip in this way if you are considering it.

 

[306024]

Introduce a whole new ferry aimed at cheaper fares for foot passengers? Seriously?

Sorry I won’t be investing and I’m out.

 

[30907]

I note from the DB planner that if you travel from UK to europe avoiding ICE it sends you via Harwich. As I've noted on the TEE thread, with reduced air travel demand for eurostar is going to rise post covid, and thus fares will too inevitably. Not everyone relishes the idea of navigating two capital cities (London plus either Brussels or Paris) en route to other european destinations. So why not ease the potential overcrowding and introduce a cheaper mid-day sailing from Harwich. A 1230 or 1300 departure could be achievable using current sevice trains arriving Harwich 1117 from Newcastle, Leeds, Birmingham etc all not via London. Arrival in Amsterdam would be late, granted, 2330 ish, but other connections to Belgium and Germany not via Amsterdam are possible with a 2000 arrival in Holland. Might ease the lorry stacks in Kent too?

Not totally ridiculous IMO: historically, the Day Continental left Liverpool Street at 0940 not 0638 so rather than an extra ferry simply retiming the day service later eastbound (and earlier westbound) would make sense from a foot passenger viewpoint - and might well be attractive to motorists too.
(BTW minor tweaks to the GA timetable would allow a 1017 arrival at HPQ off the 0749 ex Peterborough, so maybe a ferry at 1130 due Hoek 1900?).

However, I suspect Stena's timings are influenced by other factors:
1. The needs of Freight traffic - LGV drivers seem to enjoy early starts!
2. The shift patterns of their crew.
3. The berth fees at both ports.

 

[306024]

It is freight that drives the timings, and more importantly the profitability of the route. No good getting your tulips to market after they have wilted. Foot passenger demand simply isn’t there in sufficient numbers. The days of running a relief to the relief boat train are long gone.

 

[BigCj34]

Not impossible, but it would require another ship, which would also have a return trip at a time that might not be so attractive. For the Netherlands bound leg it would need staff to cater for the passengers, who wouldn’t have much to do on the return leg; nor can the space used to accommodate passengers eastbound be used for freight westbound. They have probably looked at this, but it is likely that it would need a substantial upswing in traffic to make it viable and that seems improbable at present. Chris Grayling might recommend it.

Well he is quite the expert in running a shipping company without ships!

 

[peteb]

But going to Harwich while avoiding London is quite difficult. I have looked at travelling from Harwich to the midlands before but it was just as much hassle avoiding London than via London. Also, using Eurostar is easy for most people in the UK. St Pancras is next to Kings Cross and Euston is walkable. Much better than changing at provincial stations on small trains.

On the continent, Brussels is one of the easiest interchanges as everything is at one station. From Hook of Holland, one needs to take the metro to Schiedam Centrum and then change to a train to Rotterdam before changing again for a train to Belgium or Germany. Actually, there are no direct trains to Germany from Rotterdam. So in my opinion there is no market for this as it is not easier nor quicker, maybe slightly cheaper. An extra sailing will only happen if there is freight demand. Foot passengers are then just extra income so might be transported.

On Bahn.de I'd just looked at several UK cities to Harwich international route Bury St Edmunds and most were 1 or 2 changes, all ending up at a 1117 arrival time. My main fear is that Eurostar may cash in on their monopoly once the short haul air options diminish in a more eco aware world, hiking prices and essentially becoming a luxury route. I can't imagine many inter-rail £30 tickets being available then. Whereas slower but eco friendly train and boat seems a good alternative to me, especially for trips to Holkand, Germany, Denmark and points east thereof. And other ship options for foot passengers seem limited.

 

[306024]

Maybe, but why get up early to get to Harwich by 11.17, then spend 6 hours dead time on a ferry, to arrive Rotterdam around 20.00 Dutch time with limited destinations forward. Just take the current night ferry, arrive Rotterdam around 09.00 with all day to get to where you want to go. Yes you need a cabin but they are reasonably priced.

I still suggest you wouldn’t generate enough demand to fill the Harwich to Felixstowe foot ferry, although unfortunately that Harwich ferry is now out of action until next year.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/high-winds-damage-harwich-foot-ferry-1-6857318

The ferry broke its moorings in a storm last Friday night.

 

[BayPaul]

As others have said, freight is king on this route, plus pretty much every other route in the country. It's pretty amazing to think that whilst once the route could manage with ships like St George, carrying a few dozen lorries a time, now the Stena Brittanica and Hollandica take up to 5500 lane meters of freight. The night crossing is the more profitable one, as it fits in well with delivery schedules and gives the driver a good quality rest in their hours - giving enough time for trucks to deliver their produce and return back to Harwich for the overnight sailing.
The timings on Harwich - Hoek are unusual - most sailings of a similar length would see the ship layover in port for the morning, and then have a roughly midday departure back - indeed in the opposite direction that is exactly what happens, the ferry arrives in Hoek at 08:00 and doesn't depart until 14:15. This schedule is typical to allow deliveries to be made more locally, and for the lorry to return home on the same ship as it arrived on, so the OP's suggestion would match timings on many other routes. However, Stena didn't grow this route from what it was to what it is without knowing what they are doing, and there is no doubt a very good reason for it being what it is.

with reduced air travel demand for eurostar is going to rise post covid, and thus fares will too inevitably

I don't think that's what happens. Demand for international travel has dropped, so airlines have reduced schedules to match, but overall Eurostar demand will still be lower as well, so fares shouldn't be too bad. As demand increases, airline capacity will grow as well. It is likely to be a long time until we are back to 2019 levels. If a major low cost airline like Easyjet folds then that will push prices up a little, but chances are another airline will mop up any capacity gaps fairly quickly.

 

[BigCj34]

It does not help that track access fees are £15,000 per trip (very rough figure, cannot remember exactly). While open access is theoretically possible no challenger has managed to take on Eurostar. Getting off at Lille for passport checks for new routes is possibly an additonal deterrent.

I like the Harwich ferry, but the crossing is not long enough for a good night's sleep. The ships sails at 23:00 and then you are woken up by calls for breakfast at 05:30 UK time and arrival is at 07:00 UK time/08:00 Dutch time. Passengers do go on the ship earlier but people who have their body clocks configured for a 9-5 job and go to bed at 23:00 are not going to sleep well unless they have a long bus or train trip on the other side to snooze.

The cabin prices are reasonable though, so unless you are staying in hostels or have free accommodation the overnight trip can work out better value.

 

[jopsuk]

The Hollandica and Brittanica are basically large freight ferries with a modest passenger ferry bolted on.

 

[BayPaul]

The Hollandica and Brittanica are basically large freight ferries with a modest passenger ferry bolted on.

Like most ferries today. In their case it's a very high standard passenger ferry with decent capacity - I particularly like the cabins with a double bed and bunk above. It could easily be a Visentini ropax - the CAF of the ferry world!

 

[jopsuk]

Like most ferries today. In their case it's a very high standard passenger ferry with decent capacity - I particularly like the cabins with a double bed and bunk above. It could easily be a Visentini ropax - the CAF of the ferry world!

oh absolutely. It's a measure of how important the route is that the ferries are so pleasant to travel on, and that when introduced they were the biggest on the planet. There are more lorry services from Harwich- there's usually a couple of trailer-only ferries on the route to Rotterdam Europoort (almost directly across the river from Hook) . This is a curiosity, given it is a Stena route. Stena do run trailer-only services into Hook, but from Killingholme. Quite what the logic there is I do not know!

 

[Bald Rick]

with reduced air travel demand for eurostar is going to rise post covid, and thus fares will too inevitably.

There are two leaps of logic in there.

1) air travel reducing is because of a reduction in demand on international routes. What is true for air is true for eurostar

2) reduced demand for air means reduced prices too.

 

[deep south]

When we used Brittany Ferries from Portsmouth to Spain a couple of years ago, it was very clear that freight was the priority; it was galling sitting in the car for well over half an hour after we docked to let all the lorries off first before the cars were allowed to move. And then overtaking the lorries on the motorway south!

 

[LAX54]

Now if they brought the HSS back

 

[BayPaul]

oh absolutely. It's a measure of how important the route is that the ferries are so pleasant to travel on, and that when introduced they were the biggest on the planet. There are more lorry services from Harwich- there's usually a couple of trailer-only ferries on the route to Rotterdam Europoort (almost directly across the river from Hook) . This is a curiosity, given it is a Stena route. Stena do run trailer-only services into Hook, but from Killingholme. Quite what the logic there is I do not know!

That's a legacy of a route take over from P&O - they bought P&O's old Felixstowe - Rotterdam route, and moved the UK port, leaving the Dutch port as is. Apparently it has quite a different market - the ferries on it are 12 passenger, so the vast majority of the freight on that route is unaccompanied - there would also be more flexibility for hazardous cargo on that run with no passengers. The Killingholme route can take up to around 200 drivers as well, so is somewhere between the two.

Now if they brought the HSS back

It is amazing to think that the HSS was ever considered a good idea on the Harwich route given how very different the ferries that replaced it were!

When we used Brittany Ferries from Portsmouth to Spain a couple of years ago, it was very clear that freight was the priority; it was galling sitting in the car for well over half an hour after we docked to let all the lorries off first before the cars were allowed to move. And then overtaking the lorries on the motorway south!

Something I learned as Chief Officer on a ferry - holiday passengers come onboard twice a year, freight drivers twice a week - its important to please everyone, but some are even more important . Also, from a stability point of view it is often necessary to place heavy freight such that it has to be unloaded before the cars, frustrating as this can be.

 

[jamesontheroad]

When we used Brittany Ferries from Portsmouth to Spain a couple of years ago, it was very clear that freight was the priority; it was galling sitting in the car for well over half an hour after we docked to let all the lorries off first before the cars were allowed to move. And then overtaking the lorries on the motorway south!

Something I learned as Chief Officer on a ferry - holiday passengers come onboard twice a year, freight drivers twice a week - its important to please everyone, but some are even more important . Also, from a stability point of view it is often necessary to place heavy freight such that it has to be unloaded before the cars, frustrating as this can be.

On a recent UK>Sweden trip I missed the last train out of Hamburg for Copenhagen and my night stop. Instead, I caught a train to Travemünde and boarded an overnight Finnlines ferry bound for Malmö, so as to catch up with my itinerary the next morning.

That was eye-opening. Lots of truckers, lots of drinking, and a very large sauna to cater for the truckers' overnight rest and recuperation!

I was one of three foot passengers, and we had to wait on board until every truck and car had left. It was hard not to think we had been forgotten about, watching as the contract cleaners came on board to prepare the ship for the return sailing.

 

[davetheguard]

I was one of three foot passengers, and we had to wait on board until every truck and car had left

I remember being treated like that on ferries from Dover too. After waiting while everyone else was given priority over you, you got to walk through the now deserted car deck -full of noxious fumes where all those vehicles had just started their engines a few minutes earlier- and down the ship's vehicle ramp. Arriving at Dover from the continent, you then had to board a bus that took you to the customs hall, whey they would search your bags for smuggled bottles of scent, before leaving the building to get back on the same bus again. Of course, you had to go to the customs officers; they couldn't possibly come to you, could they?

Needless to say, once Eurostar started, the ferries at Dover, Folkestone & Newhaven never saw me again! I always found the treatment better on the Harwich to Hook of Holland route & have used it occasionally since; very nice cabins!

 

[dutchflyer]

In the days of yore-and I used to live very close to HvH (direct bus in 35 mins) there were day+Overnight boats and the dayboats were the cheaper ones. They connected into and from the several overnight D-trains from HvH to as far as Sweden and Poland-Rossya/CCCP. They were run by BR/Sealink and StoomvaartMij Zeeland.
Frankly: most people who avoid planes and want a little more comfort use the coach (bus for long distance)-the whole trip on them will be cheaper as just the ferry-fare and avoid all those changes one now has to make with using trains.
BTW- ANY Dutch real station (=not a metro-halt) can be used as start for DB(super)sparpreise. It seems to me there is now a 6 eur surcharge if the trip does not start at a stop served by DB-IC or ICE trains, except maybe on longer distance/higher priced tix.

 

[37201xoIM]

Yes, there must (unfortunately!) be uncertainty as to whether we do indeed "build back better" post-Covid in terms of taking the climate crisis seriously and moving away from mass low-fares aviation - as much as I hope to see it and am less pessimistic than I was 2 years ago. And there clearly is a wider role (as discussed in other threads) for at least a modest renaissance of the foot-passenger market for ferries, though possibly not at historic levels given EST's existence and likely pre-eminence.

As has been pointed out, though, the own-goal of the HvH Metro conversion has made many journeys more difficult - Schiedam lacks through services in some directions, and the Metro ingeniously doesn't serve Rotterdam CS, which has them all! And no through-ticketing e.g. to Germany (unless this has changed since I last attempted the journey?).

 

[BigCj34]

I guess the method to the madness is the setup works better for local services but is not as comfortable for international ferry passengers looking to hop onto a train. I can imagine the comfort and journey times of foot passengers are a minor consideration in the Rotterdam metro plans.

There is also Alexander which is the quickest option for eastbound NS interchanges, but it takes 50 minutes to get to. It is a long time to spend on a metro, it is like taking the Piccadilly line to Heathrow.

Does anyone know how long the Intercity train did take to get to Rotterdam CS?

 

[37201xoIM]

Absolutely, BigCj. Going through to Alexander is a bit of an ordeal, it has to be said...

19-21 minutes in 1986 for the D trains shown in the Cook's I happen to have to hand!

PS I believe it was also about freeing up platform space in Rotterdam CS too - so a scheme not necessarily entirely built around the passenger....!

 

[BigCj34]

That's a legacy of a route take over from P&O - they bought P&O's old Felixstowe - Rotterdam route, and moved the UK port, leaving the Dutch port as is. Apparently it has quite a different market - the ferries on it are 12 passenger, so the vast majority of the freight on that route is unaccompanied - there would also be more flexibility for hazardous cargo on that run with no passengers. The Killingholme route can take up to around 200 drivers as well, so is somewhere between the two.


It is amazing to think that the HSS was ever considered a good idea on the Harwich route given how very different the ferries that replaced it were!


Something I learned as Chief Officer on a ferry - holiday passengers come onboard twice a year, freight drivers twice a week - its important to please everyone, but some are even more important . Also, from a stability point of view it is often necessary to place heavy freight such that it has to be unloaded before the cars, frustrating as this can be.

HSS would be nice in terms of joruney times but if trying to be environmental they are gas guzzlers, may as well fly if you want speed. They have been falling out of favour in the last 15 years for sailings from GB, I can only think of two services left now.

 

[biko]

I guess the method to the madness is the setup works better for local services but is not as comfortable for international ferry passengers looking to hop onto a train. I can imagine the comfort and journey times of foot passengers are a minor consideration in the Rotterdam metro plans

The decision was made indeed by the region of Rotterdam. The conversion was chosen because of the higher acceleration of metros and thus the possibility of more stops in the same time, to enable a higher frequency and to provide a direct connection to the city centre and thus where most people really want to go. I actually think that international passengers were not given any regard at all.

Does anyone know how long the Intercity train did take to get to Rotterdam CS?

Not sure as it was quite some time ago. Since 2006 there were no boat trains anymore, just local trains. Those were just as slow as the metros although they were direct to Rotterdam Centraal. So I presume the journey was in total about 5 minutes quicker.

PS I believe it was also about freeing up platform space in Rotterdam CS too - so a scheme not necessarily entirely built around the passenger....!

I don’t think that was the main reason. It is a side effect. The platform used for these services was widened and the facilities for UK passport control were built on it, so actually it helps international passengers although in a different way

 

[306024]

Yes let's face it, the Vlaardingen and Maassluis to Rotterdam market is far greater than the York to Cologne demand. The Dutch have done what is right for their own domestic reasons.

 

[Mikey C]

It does not help that track access fees are £15,000 per trip (very rough figure, cannot remember exactly). While open access is theoretically possible no challenger has managed to take on Eurostar. Getting off at Lille for passport checks for new routes is possibly an additonal deterrent.

I like the Harwich ferry, but the crossing is not long enough for a good night's sleep. The ships sails at 23:00 and then you are woken up by calls for breakfast at 05:30 UK time and arrival is at 07:00 UK time/08:00 Dutch time. Passengers do go on the ship earlier but people who have their body clocks configured for a 9-5 job and go to bed at 23:00 are not going to sleep well unless they have a long bus or train trip on the other side to snooze.

The cabin prices are reasonable though, so unless you are staying in hostels or have free accommodation the overnight trip can work out better value.

Yes, the journey could do with being a couple of hours longer

A shame the longer routes over the North Sea no longer exist. The Harwich to Hamburg route was a very nice length, while with the Harwich to Esbjerg route you had long enough to enjoy the bar and (sloping) dancefloor

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

oh absolutely. It's a measure of how important the route is that the ferries are so pleasant to travel on, and that when introduced they were the biggest on the planet. There are more lorry services from Harwich- there's usually a couple of trailer-only ferries on the route to Rotterdam Europoort (almost directly across the river from Hook) . This is a curiosity, given it is a Stena route. Stena do run trailer-only services into Hook, but from Killingholme. Quite what the logic there is I do not know!

That's a legacy of a route take over from P&O - they bought P&O's old Felixstowe - Rotterdam route, and moved the UK port, leaving the Dutch port as is. Apparently it has quite a different market - the ferries on it are 12 passenger, so the vast majority of the freight on that route is unaccompanied - there would also be more flexibility for hazardous cargo on that run with no passengers. The Killingholme route can take up to around 200 drivers as well, so is somewhere between the two.

Also the ghost of the one-time Immingham-Scheveningen truck service of Norfolk Line, many years ago.

A shame the longer routes over the North Sea no longer exist. The Harwich to Hamburg route was a very nice length, while with the Harwich to Esbjerg route you had long enough to enjoy the bar and (sloping) dancefloor

The market for such services has all but been killed by the low-cost airlines. Even in an ideal reduced carbon future I don't see any chance of a revival. Ultimately if we're truly serious about a low carbon world that will mean an overall reduction in leisure travel. In the case of surface travel between the UK and mainland Europe the concentration on the small number of routes closest to the larger potential markets is unlikely to change. The only change might be an increase in the number of through road coach services which might find their way onto current truck-only routes but not on overnight crossings.