Has the last train of the day from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston always been this early?

[Ellis101]

I have a friend who is going to Manchester with me for a concert and he is quite surprised to see that the last Euston bound train of the day leaves at 21:15, I do think that's quite early for a weekday especially when there's quite a few Avanti and LNWR services arriving at Euston from 00:00-01:00.

So my question is has it always been like this or did there used to be later services from Manchester?

 

[Bungle965]

I have a feeling it used to be earlier than that! I want to say 20:45 but may be wrong.

I believe once upon a time there was a plan to introduce a later service to London (early Avanti days) but that fell by the wayside and hasn't been picked up since.

What I'm most gutted about is the loss of the 23:00 from Euston which disappeared during Covid and hasn't returned since.

 

[JonathanH]

2115 from Manchester arriving in London is broadly at the limit of what is practical, with an arrival time of 2359. The last arrivals from Birmingham are admittedly later, but there is fairly limited demand to arrive in London after midnight, with relatively limited onward transport.

The last departure for London from Liverpool is 2051 and Leeds is 2045, so 2115 from Manchester is broadly consistent.

 

[IceBlue]

2115 from Manchester arriving in London is broadly at the limit of what is practical, with an arrival time of 2359. The last arrivals from Birmingham are admittedly later, but there is fairly limited demand to arrive in London after midnight, with relatively limited onward transport.

The last departure for London from Liverpool is 2051 and Leeds is 2045, so 2115 from Manchester is broadly consistent.

How come it takes an extra 30-40 mins compared to usual daytime runs? Diversion route somewhere?

 

[jfollows]

How come it takes an extra 30-40 mins compared to usual daytime runs? Diversion route somewhere?

Because the southern section of the WCML operates as a two track railway later in weekday evenings, so all trains have to share a pair of tracks, and express trains have to be timed to account for fitting in with freight and local trains.
Just look at the attached timetable for tomorrow's 21:15, it uses the slow line Colwich-Nuneaton and Hanslope-Euston and has 10.5 minutes or so of additional time in its schedule to allow for following slower trains as well.

So my question is has it always been like this or did there used to be later services from Manchester?

No, there weren't. I don't think there's any real demand, there aren't enough concert-goers to generate the demand.

However, long enough ago, there was an overnight sleeper. Now trains start much earlier and have taken away most of the sleeper's likely traffic, given that you can now arrive in London at 07.27 with an early start from Manchester.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the winter 2013/14 GB timetable, the last direct train from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston during the week was the 2115 (arriving 2348), on Saturdays it was the 2035 (arriving 2302) and on Sundays it was the 2055 (arriving 2349) so not much different now, a decade later, other than the last train on Saturdays now being at 2015.

 

[hawk1911]

Back in the 1980s there was a 00:30 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston service, which was joined together, at Stafford, with the 00:15 Liverpool Lime St to Euston service.

 

[jfollows]

Back in the 1980s there was a 00:30 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston service, which was joined together, at Stafford, with the 00:15 Liverpool Lime St to Euston service.

That was the sleeper, for example see attached. I used it once, it wasn't really all that useful.
But first morning arrival 09:06.

 

[CW2]

Back in the 1980s there was a 00:30 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston service, which was joined together, at Stafford, with the 00:15 Liverpool Lime St to Euston service.

Known to bashers as "The Joiner", with the corresponding northbound service being "The Splitter".

 

[D7666]

I have a friend who is going to Manchester with me for a concert and he is quite surprised to see that the last Euston bound train of the day leaves at 21:15, I do think that's quite early for a weekday especially when there's quite a few Avanti and LNWR services arriving at Euston from 00:00-01:00.

So my question is has it always been like this or did there used to be later services from Manchester?

How far back you want to go ?

It varies but "back in the day", before 110 mph, before push pull, before sectorisation, etc, for one 1980s period the last Up day time Manchester was 20:00 - and that one went via Crewe and Birmingham; in other 1980s timetables the last direct Up was actually 17:40 !!! at one time, others 19:15.

 

[hawk1911]

That was the sleeper, for example see attached. I used it once, it wasn't really all that useful.
But first morning arrival 09:06.

It also carried seated accommodation. I used it quite a bit (coming back from midweek football matches at Valley Parade) as it connected well with the Leeds to Shrewsbury service at Stockport.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

On a Saturday in the mid-90s the last Up Intercity services were astonishingly early. I recall there was something from Manchester to Euston about 2000 but it ran via Stoke and Colwich so if you wanted to get to the West Midlands you had to catch the 1918 which was the last CrossCountry service to Birmingham. We used to visit relatives in Yorkshire and our homeward journey had to commence at 1700, having only arrived at 1130.

 

[43066]

I have a friend who is going to Manchester with me for a concert and he is quite surprised to see that the last Euston bound train of the day leaves at 21:15, I do think that's quite early for a weekday especially when there's quite a few Avanti and LNWR services arriving at Euston from 00:00-01:00.

So my question is has it always been like this or did there used to be later services from Manchester?

The last MML services from Sheffield and Nottingham are only a little later (2145 and 2140 respectively), so this is by no means unusual.

As noted above the journey times are longer to account for engineering and, if you get into London much later than midnight, onward transport options are very limited.

 

[Peter0124]

Pretty sure there was meant to be a 22:15 service in the WCML rewrite nearly two years ago, but seems to have been scrapped.

 

[Watershed]

The two-track evening/Sunday morning timetable on the WCML south of Rugby/Hanslope is incredibly tedious.

If the evening two-track period started just 20 or so mins later it would at least tie in with the last services to Manchester/Liverpool/Preston etc., but no - miss the 21:10 and that's your lot in terms of fast Avanti services towards Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Preston or Liverpool in the evening; the rest of the trains take around half an hour longer because they're pathed to trundle behind freight and stopping services.

To add insult to injury you still get total closures for engineering work nearly every Christmas and on a substantial proportion of Bank Holiday weekends. Begs the question what they are doing every weekday night and Sunday morning (not much, it would appear!).

The WCML engineering access rules give the appearance of being written by, and for the sole convenience of, the civil engineers. It's a stark contrast with other mainlines out of London, which generally have fast services until the last train of the day around 22:00-23:00 and (with the exception of the MML) don't suffer from the nonsense of half of Sunday services taking 30-60 mins longer.

 

[The Planner]

The two-track evening/Sunday morning timetable on the WCML south of Rugby/Hanslope is incredibly tedious.

If the evening two-track period started just 20 or so mins later it would at least tie in with the last services to Manchester/Liverpool/Preston etc., but no - miss the 21:10 and that's your lot in terms of fast Avanti services towards Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Preston or Liverpool in the evening; the rest of the trains take around half an hour longer because they're pathed to trundle behind freight and stopping services.

To add insult to injury you still get total closures for engineering work nearly every Christmas and on a substantial proportion of Bank Holiday weekends. Begs the question what they are doing every weekday night and Sunday morning (not much, it would appear!).

The WCML engineering access rules give the appearance of being written by, and for the sole convenience of, the civil engineers. It's a stark contrast with other mainlines out of London, which generally have fast services until the last train of the day around 22:00-23:00 and (with the exception of the MML) don't suffer from the nonsense of half of Sunday services taking 30-60 mins longer.

Have you asked the head of planning for the West Coast South? They will no doubt say what is done. Until running trains past worksites is more acceptable, how do you deal with a middle lines block?

Speaking to access planners, things such as getting isolations to get on track etc all take time and the amount of time they actually get is nowhere near what the white period is. The two track timetable could quite easily be re-written, why wasnt it as part of Dec22?

 

[yorksrob]

They need a milk/newspaper/mail train with a couple of mk3's attached.

 

[Watershed]

Have you asked the head of planning for the West Coast South? They will no doubt say what is done.

Well whatever is being done, it is rarely visible whilst trundling along the slow lines!

I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if it were one sort of disruption or the other. But seemingly the civil engineers want every hour of potential access they can get, so that they can schedule works as and when it suits them.

Until running trains past worksites is more acceptable, how do you deal with a middle lines block?

How often do you need to do a middle lines block? The majority of the time I'd have thought it's perfectly sufficient for one pair of lines to be closed.

Rather than simply throwing their hands in the air and declaring "it's impossible" to run trains past worksites since red zone working was banned, NR should have been developing means of allowing it to happen safely, for example by developing improved fencing. I'm sure there are practices used by other railways around the world that could be looked at too.

The problem is that NR have no incentive to run the railway in the public interest; their only incentive is to avoid prosecution for H&S failings.

Speaking to access planners, things such as getting isolations to get on track etc all take time and the amount of time they actually get is nowhere near what the white period is.

That suggests the process should be streamlined, for example by expanding the availability and functionality of LOD(T)'s.

The two track timetable could quite easily be re-written, why wasnt it as part of Dec22?

A timetable rewritten amidst intense DfT cost-cutting pressure - hmm, tricky to see why they weren't too ambitious... More to the point, the engineering access teams are effectively given a veto right, again with no-one in charge that looks at the bigger picture. Trying to get any section 4 times amended is like banging your head against a brick wall.

 

[Magdalia]

My experience is more with the ECML than with the WCML.

The WCML engineering access rules give the appearance of being written by, and for the sole convenience of, the civil engineers. It's a stark contrast with other mainlines out of London, which generally have fast services until the last train of the day around 22:00-23:00

With regard to the ECML this is not correct. For example, tonight the 2300 York and 2333 Leeds are both retimed to depart earlier, at 2245 and 2315, and are diverted via Hertford North. They arrive at York at 0130 and Leeds at 0217. Tonight the last down ECML train via Welwyn is the 2200 Newcastle.

Well whatever is being done, it is rarely visible whilst trundling along the slow lines!

Midweek night possessions are important for overhead line maintenance. That has long set up times because of the need to get isolations and move equipment into place. In particular, frequent access is essential for adjusting tensions to cope with seasonal temperature variations. Not doing this risks more dewirements. For most of my commuting days there was a regular six weekly cycle of midweek night possessions each covering a different part of the route out of Kings Cross.

I'm old enough to remember the days before midweek night possessions. In those days overhead line maintenance was done on Sunday, usually lasting until about 1600, and using working methods that would not be permitted now. That still involved longer journey times with things like attaching/detaching diesel traction or single line working through work sites.

Increased Sunday travel drove the switch to midweek night possessions. Two important factors here were relaxation of Sunday trading laws and Network SouthEast promotion of weekend leisure travel, especially to London.

It is also important to remember the impact of railway shift patterns. Starting the work as soon as possible after 2200, and finishing before 0600, limits the impact of midweek night engineering work mostly to people doing night shift.

 

[jfollows]

I'm old enough to remember the days before midweek night possessions. In those days overhead line maintenance was done on Sunday, usually lasting until about 1600, and using working methods that would not be permitted now. That still involved longer journey times with things like attaching/detaching diesel traction or single line working through work sites.

Absolutely; everything diesel-hauled on Sunday mornings and entertaining diversions over routes such as Cannock Chase. I remember it well. But it was only a good service for the likes of us who enjoyed the diversions and unusual traction, for most it was a basic slow service.
At least now we have two 8am-ish Sunday up departures from Manchester which are electric and get to London not too long after 10:30. Of course, there are some times they don’t run for other reasons, but that’s the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notably Liverpool used to be even earlier. I seem to recall it being 1845 (might even have been 1815) in my youth, though a later journey was possible by changing at Manchester, Birmingham or Crewe if I recall.

 

[jfollows]

Notably Liverpool used to be even earlier. I seem to recall it being 1845 (might even have been 1815) in my youth, though a later journey was possible by changing at Manchester, Birmingham or Crewe if I recall.

Yes, 19:15 on the timetable I attached above from 1985 for example. And probably earlier in other years as you say.

And 19:04 in 1974, which was the timetable of my youth following electrification to Glasgow. 19:10 and 20:10 from Manchester in the same timetable.

EDIT And 18:40 in 1973, with a later 19:30 change at Crewe into the 19:35 SX Manchester-Euston.

 

[The Planner]

Well whatever is being done, it is rarely visible whilst trundling along the slow lines!

I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if it were one sort of disruption or the other. But seemingly the civil engineers want every hour of potential access they can get, so that they can schedule works as and when it suits them.

Until its possible to efficiently deliver drainage, track, OLE work in smaller blocks, then Sunday, weekend and bank holiday blocks won't go away. It all has to be deconflicted as well with other routes for obvious reasons. You still need time to get protection set up, people and machines on track etc. Then get them off and handed back to the signaller.

How often do you need to do a middle lines block? The majority of the time I'd have thought it's perfectly sufficient for one pair of lines to be closed.

Track and drainage renewals.

A timetable rewritten amidst intense DfT cost-cutting pressure - hmm, tricky to see why they weren't too ambitious... More to the point, the engineering access teams are effectively given a veto right, again with no-one in charge that looks at the bigger picture. Trying to get any section 4 times amended is like banging your head against a brick wall.

Don't see why it is, if its proven the access is needed then no one is going to reduce it. If that evidence isnt there then it should be escalated. I can understand if its someone asking a 5 or 10 minutes off a section 4 or 5, as that is never the end of it and it gets to the point over a period of time that 30-45-60 minutes has gone.

 

[D1537]

The two-track evening/Sunday morning timetable on the WCML south of Rugby/Hanslope is incredibly tedious.

The WCML engineering access rules give the appearance of being written by, and for the sole convenience of, the civil engineers. It's a stark contrast with other mainlines out of London, which generally have fast services until the last train of the day around 22:00-23:00 and (with the exception of the MML) don't suffer from the nonsense of half of Sunday services taking 30-60 mins longer.

It's even more tedious if you're on one of the three last Wolverhampton services out of Euston which take 90 minutes to get to Rugby, but quite often sit around for 10 minutes at Milton Keynes waiting time (and then often go via Weedon instead of Northampton to Rugby so end up sitting there for 10 minutes as well!).

 

[Watershed]

It's even more tedious if you're on one of the three last Wolverhampton services out of Euston which take 90 minutes to get to Rugby, but quite often sit around for 10 minutes at Milton Keynes waiting time (and then often go via Weedon instead of Northampton to Rugby so end up sitting there for 10 minutes as well!).

Yes, the fact that Milton Keynes is a full, 'open' stop adds insult to injury - as around 70% of the time you actually can run Fast Line and via Weedon and the remaining stops are set down only.

I've spent far too many evenings and Sunday mornings festering at Milton Keynes waiting for the booked departure time...

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is demand for MK-Birmingham including in the evening so removing this would not make sense.

 

[Watershed]

There is demand for MK-Birmingham including in the evening so removing this would not make sense.

I'm not suggesting removing the calls, but there has to be a better way of managing it. Having an advertised departure time that's earlier than WTT, based on FL/Weedon timings, would be one option.

Of course you'd then end up with the difficulty of what to do with the arrival time - make it the same as the above earlier-than-WTT departure time and the train would occasionally show as "running late" even though in reality it's running on time and in accordance with its WTT path. Make it later (so that the train shows as departing before it arrives) and I suspect several journey planners would be unable to handle that 'time travel'.

Really what you need is what several railways abroad have, some kind of timetable indication that allows trains to leave up to X mins earlier than booked without it being a 'set down only' stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really what you need is what several railways abroad have, some kind of timetable indication that allows trains to leave up to X mins earlier than booked without it being a 'set down only' stop.

Or to actually update the timetable based on what engineering work is happening rather than setting a slack one based on what might. In the days when most people used paper timetables it made reasonable sense to do what they have, but now almost everyone uses planners they should be able to do it more dynamically.

They really should know what engineering is actually planned at least a week or two out.

When this first started happening they used it as a driver familiarity exercise with the Pendolino being 57-hauled and therefore taking an hour to MKC whatever way you sent it, but that's not been the case for ages.

 

[D1537]

Yes, the fact that Milton Keynes is a full, 'open' stop adds insult to injury - as around 70% of the time you actually can run Fast Line and via Weedon and the remaining stops are set down only.

I've spent far too many evenings and Sunday mornings festering at Milton Keynes waiting for the booked departure time...

The remaining stops are pick-up and set down (which is why it sits at Rugby if it goes via Weedon). The exception to this is Sunday night when everything is set down only after Milton Keynes (which presumably reflects the difficulty of sourcing alternative transport on a Sunday night if everything goes pear-shaped).

 

[The Planner]

Or to actually update the timetable based on what engineering work is happening rather than setting a slack one based on what might. In the days when most people used paper timetables it made reasonable sense to do what they have, but now almost everyone uses planners they should be able to do it more dynamically.

They really should know what engineering is actually planned at least a week or two out.

Unless you start using VSTP as the train planning process, the timescales won't work, you are offering back to TOC/FOCs 14 weeks out.