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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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miklcct

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Around ten years ago I had a diesel car ill suited to short trips so I decided to get into cycling the short trips instead and although that car is long gone and I have a more flexible petrol engine, most of my travel is now handled by bike. It's very green, the running costs are next to nothing, it's radically improved my health and fitness, doesn't cause congestion, take up parking space etc. really one of the best actions I've taken in my life.
You are fortunate enough to have most of your journey being time-competitive on a bike compared to a car. For those living in rural areas, or close to an entrance of a motorway, a car is a necessity.

I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes.
 
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Bald Rick

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I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes

your choice of course.

5km is easily done on a bike in 15 minutes. do you really need a car to save 12 minutes a day?

I used to, for 6 years, then chose differently. For the sake of (coincidentally) 12 minutes a day, in the intervening 13 years I’ve saved £20k on fuel, parking, maintenance etc., and that doesn’t include depreciation or lease costs…
 

reddragon

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I predict my travel to be 30000 km / year but the charging problem is really putting me off, and I'm now paying off-peak train fares for most of my journeys!
There are plenty of chargers out there and using them is easier than the rail fares structure to use!

your choice of course.

5km is easily done on a bike in 15 minutes. do you really need a car to save 12 minutes a day?

I used to, for 6 years, then chose differently. For the sake of (coincidentally) 12 minutes a day, in the intervening 13 years I’ve saved £20k on fuel, parking, maintenance etc., and that doesn’t include depreciation or lease costs…
Unfortunately I have unlit twisty country lanes with 60 mph limits & muppets driving SUVs / 4x4s to contend with so no cycling! Also I always have a passenger and / or load
 

miklcct

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There are plenty of chargers out there and using them is easier than the rail fares structure to use!
I live in an apartment which means it's impossible to charge a car at home. Most of my travel is to orienteering races which is in rural areas, and an EV doesn't have enough range to get from Bournemouth to Sussex / Kent and back. How can I charge my car?
 

paul1609

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It looks like the issue has been a guarded response because they wanted to put something out there when asked. I would imagine that the shape of such contracts will eveolve as a greater proportion of residents get EVs, and the actual level of risk becomes known.
Having said that, a charge of 28p per kWH isn't bad as the current capped rate is about 20p and after the April rise, it will be just over 30p. So on the face of it, it is cheaper than a self-installed charger for use on resident's land fed from a capped installation.
I don't think a charger provided by the management company will benefit from electricity protected by the cap. It will be a commercial contract think new contracts are currently charging around 36p/Kwh depending on the location.
 

reddragon

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I live in an apartment which means it's impossible to charge a car at home. Most of my travel is to orienteering races which is in rural areas, and an EV doesn't have enough range to get from Bournemouth to Sussex / Kent and back. How can I charge my car?
Not impossible but not ideal at all on cost / convenience grounds.
 

biko

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Because in such case, most of your travel, even to the nearest market 3 km away, will be on the motorway, that a car can deliver a huge time saving.
But that raises the question: why should it always be the quickest way of travel? If public transport or bike also have acceptable travel times, you don't necessarily need to have a car. I would think only when speeds of alternatives are very low, it becomes necessary

Edit: improved grammar
 
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ABB125

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Because in such case, most of your travel, even to the nearest market 3 km away, will be on the motorway, that a car can deliver a huge time saving.
That doesn't necessitate a car though, it just makes car journeys more attractive* compared to other options.

*Assuming that you aren't stuck in traffic
 

jon0844

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Batteries are always going to be a significant cost even as you go up to more expensive cars, my point was when comparing like for like with petrol/diesel to electric cars you're not getting better spec for the money on the electric cars so the spec isn't distorting the price comparison.

You don't have to ditch your car if you cycle and that's partially the point being made in this thread with the focus on electric cars which are not viable for many whereas reducing car usage is much more easily achievable and has much larger gains than changing to electric cars since it's not just greener but also improves congestion, parking and the many other problems electric cars have just the same as petrol/diesel. Around ten years ago I had a diesel car ill suited to short trips so I decided to get into cycling the short trips instead and although that car is long gone and I have a more flexible petrol engine, most of my travel is now handled by bike. It's very green, the running costs are next to nothing, it's radically improved my health and fitness, doesn't cause congestion, take up parking space etc. really one of the best actions I've taken in my life. The car is useful for large loads and long distance (trains are unfortunately laughably bad for bikes these days) but it doesn't make any sense to spend a huge chunk of money on an electric even if there was one that met my requirements, which there isn't.

But most EVs have pretty much all the creature comforts that have traditionally been extras on 'normal' cars. Of course that's changing all the time as the costs come down, but technically those features were seen as expensive/premium (when of course in component cost, not expensive at all). As such, EVs that are considerably more expensive because of the batteries can appear to be better value by throwing in these features at no extra cost.

If EVs came without a lot of the tech, they'd seem even more of a rip off by many. I think the Chinese are doing things like they do with mobiles - offering a high spec for less than the incumbents. We can argue that some of the systems are a bit slower/laggier than you'd get in an Audi or BMW, but for most people they do the job.

Batteries are getting cheaper, and charging tech is also getting cheaper, so costs will come down and once you can get one for under £15k then there will suddenly be no need for cheap ICE cars at all IMO.
 

miami

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I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes.

Then you'll be delighted to know that an electric car with a full charge will get your journey done 5 times a week for 2 months without a recharge
 

Bald Rick

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and an EV doesn't have enough range to get from Bournemouth to Sussex / Kent and back.

It’s a three hour journey, so you should be stopping for a break en route, plenty of fast chargers at Cobham services...
 

miklcct

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Then you'll be delighted to know that an electric car with a full charge will get your journey done 5 times a week for 2 months without a recharge
If the bus company cancels the route or make any timing adjustment that I rely on for this journey I will buy a car immediately. Before the introduction of the evening route I could no longer bear the journey back home after my training at a sports club as it involved circuitous routing and a change compared to 6 minutes on the direct route. Now the timing of the bus mean that after the training finishes and getting changed, I usually get to the bus stop within 2 minutes before the scheduled departure time. Then, in 6 minutes' time, the bus will run 4.7 km mostly on the A338 dual carriageway at 70 km/h and drop me off next to a supermarket, and after I do my shopping, and possibly collecting my paper train tickets there, I can then walk 500 m back home.

Only public transport can give me such speed and convenience. A car is no better as I will need to park at the supermarket, start it and move it back home after my shopping. A bike is impractical for carrying my training equipment and my shopping afterwards.

It’s a three hour journey, so you should be stopping for a break en route, plenty of fast chargers at Cobham services...
OK that means it's impractical to make the journey by car anyway, and I'll stick with the train where I don't need a break.
 

paul1609

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It’s a three hour journey, so you should be stopping for a break en route, plenty of fast chargers at Cobham services...
I wouldn't recommend planning a journey with recharging at either of the southern M25 service areas but especially not Cobham. It has a lot of chargers but because it is on area serving both clockwise and anticlockwise carriageways at busy periods its common to see EV users queuing for chargers. To be honest I try to avoid going in there in an ICE vehicle unless its the middle of the night.
 
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JohnMcL7

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You are fortunate enough to have most of your journey being time-competitive on a bike compared to a car. For those living in rural areas, or close to an entrance of a motorway, a car is a necessity.

I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes.
I'm not fortunate at all, it's the same for most of the population who live in built up areas and could be using cars less where electric cars are now being promoted despite the congestion problems. The trips people now frequently promote as being the best for electric cars, short trips in urban areas are where cycling or other modes of transport are far better suited not just for the driver but for everyone else.

A bike can easily do 5km in nine minutes even without traffic and usually quicker for getting parked up as well since bike racks are usually much closer than parking spaces. I doubt most people need such exact timing and regular 5km trips are exactly what a bike is well suited to, much better for the cyclist, much better not doing such short wasteful trips in the car.

It doesn't have to be 100% as some people seem to think, you don't have to ditch your car if you get a bike and you can use a bike while you own a car as many cyclists do and I do myself. And I'm not saying everyone should be ditching their cars but the figures for the number of short trips in the UK in cars and the level of cycling are both appalling, there's no debating that and electric cars are not the solution to that.

But most EVs have pretty much all the creature comforts that have traditionally been extras on 'normal' cars.
No they don't, if you check the electric car brochures you'll find just as many optional extras as an equivalent petrol/diesel cars. I'm talking about battery costs now, not in the future and they currently account for the main price increase, nothing to do with the spec.

Pop down to page 26 here:


All those white circles are the optional extras even on the higher specs and if you compare them against the petrol/diesel Kodiaq you'll find a similar pattern of optional extras but a lower price thanks to the lack of batteries. Even if you go high end and try speccing up a Taycan Sport Turismo it's quite shocking how many optional extras are not included in the price..

I wish what you were saying was true as I've been surprised how expensive it is to spec up some of the current electric cars to my very old Japanese car (which unlike most European cars did come with a high spec as standard)
 

Bletchleyite

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You are fortunate enough to have most of your journey being time-competitive on a bike compared to a car. For those living in rural areas, or close to an entrance of a motorway, a car is a necessity.

I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes.

I wonder if you might find your life less stressful if you slackened it off a little, so you are not reliant on the difference between 9 and 15 minutes, say?

It reads like you are a competitive runner, which is great, but why have the rest of your life like that?
 

MarkWi72

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With a political hat on, I'd say that since 1959, car lobbyists have been heard loudest in the corridors of Westminster. Followed by aviation.
 

Bletchleyite

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OK that means it's impractical to make the journey by car anyway, and I'll stick with the train where I don't need a break.

If it is impractical to do a three hour car journey without a break, it is impractical to do the journey by car.

Your life really would be more enjoyable if you slowed it down a little! Why is a break not practical? Just get up an hour earlier.
 

jon0844

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No they don't, if you check the electric car brochures you'll find just as many optional extras as an equivalent petrol/diesel cars. I'm talking about battery costs now, not in the future and they currently account for the main price increase, nothing to do with the spec.

Pop down to page 26 here:


All those white circles are the optional extras even on the higher specs and if you compare them against the petrol/diesel Kodiaq you'll find a similar pattern of optional extras but a lower price thanks to the lack of batteries. Even if you go high end and try speccing up a Taycan Sport Turismo it's quite shocking how many optional extras are not included in the price..

I wish what you were saying was true as I've been surprised how expensive it is to spec up some of the current electric cars to my very old Japanese car (which unlike most European cars did come with a high spec as standard)

I am not surprised German car makers are trying to continue to cash in from loads of options as they always have, but thankfully when it comes to EVs it is likely to be car makers from China, Japan or Korea that win the day and the options list is far smaller - with so much more standard. Two or three trim levels and that's about it.

Given Tesla and BMW are now seeking to not only charge more for features but also add in subscriptions (and then have the ability to remove features in software should you sell your car), I have no doubt things are going to get worse though. If every car maker gets in on that 'scam' then we're screwed. For now, it's not mainstream thank goodness.

However, one way or another, my next car in 2024 will be an EV - it's just that I don't need a £30k long range vehicle. Perhaps too much emphasis is being put on range for those with battery anxiety, and the industry is desperately working to compete here, while I and many others just want a cheaper car.
 

Bletchleyite

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However, one way or another, my next car in 2024 will be an EV - it's just that I don't need a £30k long range vehicle. Perhaps too much emphasis is being put on range for those with battery anxiety, and the industry is desperately working to compete here, while I and many others just want a cheaper car.

If a Nissan Leaf would suit, the used market already provides this (and will more widely later) - vehicles with degraded batteries offer a more limited range and are cheaper.

Perhaps there is business for properly refurbishing such vehicles so they feel new (and replacing key consumable components). Or indeed building new vehicles but fitting them with recovered batteries.
 

miklcct

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I wonder if you might find your life less stressful if you slackened it off a little, so you are not reliant on the difference between 9 and 15 minutes, say?

It reads like you are a competitive runner, which is great, but why have the rest of your life like that?
If it is impractical to do a three hour car journey without a break, it is impractical to do the journey by car.

Your life really would be more enjoyable if you slowed it down a little! Why is a break not practical? Just get up an hour earlier.

I don't even currently have enough time to do my personal projects (I hope to develop an interactive (HTML) National Rail timetable generator which allows customer to explore different destinations in an easy-to-read format showing all lines reachable from a certain station / group of stations on a direct train) and find it very hard to squeeze everything, including my training in 2 sports, into my schedule while keeping 9 hours of sleep on average as I'm wasting so much time every weekend on transport, due to last year's mistake landing myself in Bournemouth. It's at least 2 - 2.5 hours each way on nearly every Saturday and Sunday for me to get to London, Surrey, Sussex, etc. for me to find entertainment and lifestyle.

In contrast, when I lived in the centre of Kowloon, Hong Kong, everything was just within 45 minutes, and it was very usual for me to attend a race in the morning, and do other stuff in the afternoon such as swim training on a weekend. Therefore, there is no way for me to continue living in Bournemouth for long term, which, I hope I can sort out my job and move to inner London in order to save time and train fares.
 

jon0844

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If a Nissan Leaf would suit, the used market already provides this (and will more widely later) - vehicles with degraded batteries offer a more limited range and are cheaper.

Perhaps there is business for properly refurbishing such vehicles so they feel new (and replacing key consumable components). Or indeed building new vehicles but fitting them with recovered batteries.

The early Leaf was a bit flawed (battery management), but looking at the cars on the road now - I feel there will be a much better choice soon. Second hand may well be the solution, but I do have a desire to get a new (or nearly new) car.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't even currently have enough time to do my personal projects (I hope to develop an interactive (HTML) National Rail timetable generator which allows customer to explore different destinations in an easy-to-read format showing all lines reachable from a certain station / group of stations on a direct train) and find it very hard to squeeze everything, including my training in 2 sports, into my schedule while keeping 9 hours of sleep on average as I'm wasting so much time every weekend on transport, due to last year's mistake landing myself in Bournemouth. It's at least 2 - 2.5 hours each way on nearly every Saturday and Sunday for me to get to London, Surrey, Sussex, etc. for me to find entertainment and lifestyle.

In contrast, when I lived in the centre of Kowloon, Hong Kong, everything was just within 45 minutes, and it was very usual for me to attend a race in the morning, and do other stuff in the afternoon such as swim training on a weekend. Therefore, there is no way for me to continue living in Bournemouth for long term, which, I hope I can sort out my job and move to inner London in order to save time and train fares.

I think you'll probably find that almost no adult averages 9 hours' sleep in the UK. 6 is probably more typical. 8 is generally considered optimal.

Why not take your laptop on the train and work on your project there, making good use of the time?

It does sound like your lifestyle would be better served by living in the centre of a large city (even given that our cities are small compared with Asian megacities), if London is too expensive then Birmingham/Manchester/Edinburgh might suit, though obviously if you know people in London already you'll favour that. But in the meantime you'll find things less frustrating if you slow it a little :)

Try to enjoy Bournemouth, it might not be your usual but it's a truly lovely place.
 

bspahh

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If a Nissan Leaf would suit, the used market already provides this (and will more widely later) - vehicles with degraded batteries offer a more limited range and are cheaper.

Perhaps there is business for properly refurbishing such vehicles so they feel new (and replacing key consumable components). Or indeed building new vehicles but fitting them with recovered batteries.
For ~ £30k you can get the running gear from a Nissan Leaf in one of these
  • Land Rovers - Defenders and Series
  • Classic Minis
  • VW Beetles, Campers, Karmann Ghias and other Type 2s
 

Bletchleyite

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For ~ £30k you can get the running gear from a Nissan Leaf in one of these
  • Land Rovers - Defenders and Series
  • Classic Minis
  • VW Beetles, Campers, Karmann Ghias and other Type 2s

That is very cool, but £30K is about a factor of 10 off on what people would typically pay for a used petrol runaround, and still about a factor of 3 out on a new one :)
 

miklcct

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I think you'll probably find that almost no adult averages 9 hours' sleep in the UK. 6 is probably more typical. 8 is generally considered optimal.
I get sick if I consistently don't get 8 hours of sleep on average. If I just have 8, I am not at the optimal state for work. I know that 9 is the best for me.
Why not take your laptop on the train and work on your project there, making good use of the time?
I tried but there isn't Internet reception on most of the line, and SWR WiFi is crap, so my productivity is limited.

It does sound like your lifestyle would be better served by living in the centre of a large city (even given that our cities are small compared with Asian megacities), if London is too expensive then Birmingham/Manchester/Edinburgh might suit, though obviously if you know people in London already you'll favour that. But in the meantime you'll find things less frustrating if you slow it a little :)
I have no trust in deregulated buses outside London now so I'm wary of anywhere outside London, and I have a few friends in London already. Money remains a major problem as my company is in Bournemouth, I haven't identified any employers in the public transport industry in London suitable for my skill set, and I'm not earning London salary outside London to afford a home in inner London. Unless I can depend on local buses getting me around from 6 to 23 to key places in town on a direct route, I have no confidence in any places with deregulated buses.
 

The Ham

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You are fortunate enough to have most of your journey being time-competitive on a bike compared to a car. For those living in rural areas, or close to an entrance of a motorway, a car is a necessity.

I rely on motorised forms of transport because they are the only forms which can get my 5 km journey done under 9 minutes.

I live in a rural area (Government definition being settlement with less than 10,000) which has a motorway junction on the outskirts, for the last decade nearly all my travel to and from work has been by bike, train or walking. The school run is almost always walking (as driving takes longer due to congestion), whilst most of my travel (based on miles) is by car, that's because of long distance travel to visit family.

Now the point is that 85% of the population lives in an urban area (and a good percentage of the remaining 15% are likely to be living in 5,000 to 10,000 rural settlements, where there's potential for cycling and public transport), so whilst those in rural areas may need a car (and that's not always the case) why are there more cars than tax payers?

Clearly there's much more that can be done to reduce our car use as a nation. However arguing that everything should stay the same for a clear minority (something which often comes up in the debate) isn't helpful. Yes there's a need to ensure that rural populations aren't prices out of car ownership, when they need it, however restricting car use in urban areas should be something that we should be looking to achieve.
 

Bletchleyite

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And this is why, to me, taxation of use of cars in urban areas and in places like National Parks (with some exceptions e.g. farm related use) is the way to replace fuel tax, not a per-mile charge.
 
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