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Help. TIL is charging me to court!!

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Myself and my wife traveled to Cardiff last December from Swansea. She bough the tickets on her phone. When we presented the tickets at the barriers in Swansea, the barriers didn't open. The staff asked to see our tickets, we showed it to him, he then used his card to open up the barriers to let us thru. On getting to Cardiff, the barriers didn't let us thru, the staff there asked to see our tickets. He scanned it and told us we had bought an advance ticket. We were both surprised to hear that. And we spent the next 30 minutes trying to prove it was a mistake but they weren't having it. They took our details and told us to expect letters. The letters came and we were fined approximately £100 each and had a very short time to pay it otherwise, we would face prosecution. I wrote to TIL that we couldnt afford it at the time and asked for some more time, (i asked for the longest possible). Eventually, we couldn't pay the fine, and about a month later, we got letters in the mail that we have been charged to court.
We are very worried as this could mean a criminal record for both of us.

Is it stilll possibke to get out of court settlement?
 
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Skimpot flyer

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2012
Messages
1,814
TfL are Transport for London.
Clearly you mean Transport for Wales (TfW), the not-for-profit company responsible for passenger rail services and some bus services in Wales.
Others will be along with advice specific to that rail operator. If it was TfL you were dealing with, you wouldn’t even been offered an out-of-court settlement.

As it is, I suspect your opportunity to avoid court has passed, sadly.
 

Knoodlepot

Member
Joined
4 Jul 2024
Messages
311
Location
United Kingdom
TfL are Transport for London.
Clearly you mean Transport for Wales (TfW), the not-for-profit company responsible for passenger rail services and some bus services in Wales.
Others will be along with advice specific to that rail operator. If it was TfL you were dealing with, you wouldn’t even been offered an out-of-court settlement.

As it is, I suspect your opportunity to avoid court has passed, sadly.
TIL are the Revenue guys for TfW.
 

spotify95

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2020
Messages
255
Location
Northamptonshire
And TIL are notoriously difficult to deal with normally. I'd have personally taken out some sort of loan, or borrowed the money from elsewhere, to deal with TIL and accept their settlement figure.

As it is now, it's going to go to court, where a fine, surcharge, court costs, and compensation, will be due - not to mention the receipt of a criminal record. However if the OP can prove to the court that they can't afford to pay the total in one go, they may be offered to pay in installments. Paying an OOCS in installments isn't usually possible due to the TOC only having 6 months from the date of incident to lay papers in front of the court.

TIL are the Revenue guys for TfW.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,338
Location
0036
We'll need to see the letters you've received to give full advice. Please block out any personal information in them.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
And TIL are notoriously difficult to deal with normally. I'd have personally taken out some sort of loan, or borrowed the money from elsewhere, to deal with TIL and accept their settlement figure.

As it is now, it's going to go to court, where a fine, surcharge, court costs, and compensation, will be due - not to mention the receipt of a criminal record. However if the OP can prove to the court that they can't afford to pay the total in one go, they may be offered to pay in installments. Paying an OOCS in installments isn't usually possible due to the TOC only having 6 months from the date of incident to lay papers in front of the court.
Thank you for your reply. As it is now, I don't mind paying the fines or whatever costs. If they would let us set up a plan cos it's really a hard time for us. What we are most concerned about is having a criminal record over a silly mistake that was in no way intended.
I also noticed my last name was spelt wrongly on the letter. Missing two letters.

On the witness's account of what happened, they quoted me saying 'the officer in Swansea let me thru, how is it my fault'

From a 30 minutes plus back and forth , that's what they decided to pick from all i said.

I now have to plead guilty or not guilty.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,074
Thank you for your reply. As it is now, I don't mind paying the fines or whatever costs. If they would let us set up a plan cos it's really a hard time for us. What we are most concerned about is having a criminal record over a silly mistake that was in no way intended.
I also noticed my last name was spelt wrongly on the letter. Missing two letters.

On the witness's account of what happened, they quoted me saying 'the officer in Swansea let me thru, how is it my fault'

From a 30 minutes plus back and forth , that's what they decided to pick from all i said.

I now have to plead guilty or not guilty.
If you want to avoid a criminal record you need to write back to TIL to ask them if they would be kind enough to re instate the offer to allow you to pay the sum they are asking for and withdraw the court action but you will have to pay it in full.

As asked you need to upload copies of the paperwork you have received.

When do you have to return your court plea?

I suspect you had a train ticket that you used at the wrong time or date even if you did not understand that. Can you upload a copy of your train tickets for that day also.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Myself and my wife traveled to Cardiff last December from Swansea. She bough the tickets on her phone. When we presented the tickets at the barriers in Swansea, the barriers didn't open. The staff asked to see our tickets, we showed it to him, he then used his card to open up the barriers to let us thru. On getting to Cardiff, the barriers didn't let us thru, the staff there asked to see our tickets. He scanned it and told us we had bought an advance ticket. We were both surprised to hear that. And we spent the next 30 minutes trying to prove it was a mistake but they weren't having it. They took our details and told us to expect letters. The letters came and we were fined approximately £100 each and had a very short time to pay it otherwise, we would face prosecution. I wrote to TIL that we couldnt afford it at the time and asked for some more time, (i asked for the longest possible). Eventually, we couldn't pay the fine, and about a month later, we got letters in the mail that we have been charged to court.
We are very worried as this could mean a criminal record for both of us.

Is it stilll possibke to get out of court settlement?

If you want to avoid a criminal record you need to write back to TIL to ask them if they would be kind enough to re instate the offer to allow you to pay the sum they are asking for and withdraw the court action but you will have to pay it in full.

As asked you need to upload copies of the paperwork you have received.

When do you have to return your court plea?

I suspect you had a train ticket that you used at the wrong time or date even if you did not understand that. Can you upload a copy of your train tickets for that day also.
My wife bought the ticket only a few minutes before we boarded. Just as we were approaching the barriers.
She just searched for ticket as usual and TrainPal some how brought up an 'advance ticket' for a journey that was about 45 minutes to 1hour ahead. (She didn't notice at the time) she just selected the topmost and paid.
We only found out when we got to Cardiff station.
even though it was a mistake, i know intent might be very hard to prove here as the court would only see what we did and not what we intended to do.
 

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Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
15,922
Welwome to the forum!

You purchased a ticket for the 15:22 GWR train from Swansea to Cardiff but it seems that you were questioned at Cardiff at 14:29 so you had travelled on the wrong train. Sadly you purchased a ticket that can only be used on the booked train only.

You were offered the opportunity to deal with this by paying a settlement of £114 but did not do so and this is why you're now being taken to court. I agree with @WesternLancer that the best thing you can do here is to try and see if TIL will reinstate the settlement offer. If they do agree to reinstate it then payment will need to be made immediately and in full it is highly unlikely that they will accept payment in installments.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,907
Location
LBK
We only found out when we got to Cardiff station.
even though it was a mistake, i know intent might be very hard to prove here as the court would only see what we did and not what we intended to do.
There is no intent necessary to prove. If you’re being charged under the Bylaws they only need to prove you boarded the train without a valid ticket - that is all. It’s a strict liability offence.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Your name is visible on at least one of the images, you may want to remove that.
Thank you

Welwome to the forum!

You purchased a ticket for the 15:22 GWR train from Swansea to Cardiff but it seems that you were questioned at Cardiff at 14:29 so you had travelled on the wrong train. Sadly you purchased a ticket that can only be used on the booked train only.

You were offered the opportunity to deal with this by paying a settlement of £114 but did not do so and this is why you're now being taken to court. I agree with @WesternLancer that the best thing you can do here is to try and see if TIL will reinstate the settlement offer. If they do agree to reinstate it then payment will need to be made immediately and in full it is highly unlikely that they will accept payment in installments.
Thank you

If you want to avoid a criminal record you need to write back to TIL to ask them if they would be kind enough to re instate the offer to allow you to pay the sum they are asking for and withdraw the court action but you will have to pay it in full.

As asked you need to upload copies of the paperwork you have received.

When do you have to return your court plea?

I suspect you had a train ticket that you used at the wrong time or date even if you did not understand that. Can you upload a copy of your train tickets for that day also.
I have to return plea by 17th April

Welwome to the forum!

You purchased a ticket for the 15:22 GWR train from Swansea to Cardiff but it seems that you were questioned at Cardiff at 14:29 so you had travelled on the wrong train. Sadly you purchased a ticket that can only be used on the booked train only.

You were offered the opportunity to deal with this by paying a settlement of £114 but did not do so and this is why you're now being taken to court. I agree with @WesternLancer that the best thing you can do here is to try and see if TIL will reinstate the settlement offer. If they do agree to reinstate it then payment will need to be made immediately and in full it is highly unlikely that they will accept payment in installments.
Is there any chance this can still be settled out of court?
How would you advise i structure my letter to TIL?
Do i have to send the letter via email or it has to be by post?

I'm grateful to have come across this forum, I've had sleepless nights since getting the summons letters
 
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WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,074
Unfortunately you and your wife should have read the ticket more carefully after you bought it and waited at the station for the correct train. This is almost certainly why the barrier would not open for your ticket. It's unfortunate that the barrier not opening was not enough of a clue to you, your wife or the member of staff who opened the barrier to let you through that you should not have been getting on the train that you got on. You have my sympathy but what has happened has happened.

I have to return plea by 17th April

So you have until a few days before that date to urgently contact TIL again to ask if they will re-instate the offer to settle the matter out of court and withdraw the court action. If it gets close to 17 April you must return the court papers to get to the court by 17th April. It might be that you could plead 'not guilty' to get a bit more time to agree the settlement but there are risks to that that you might pay a greater court fine in due course (because from what you have said you are guilty) - people here can advise you on that aspect next week. For the moment concentrate on dealing with TIL, and I suspect it best to not send the court papers back immediately

Is there any chance this can still be settled out of court?
Possibly there is a chance yes, and it will cost you less if it can be settled out of court than it will cost in court, and there would be no criminal record if it is settled

How would you advise i structure my letter to TIL?

We can advise you on that and help you get the wording correct - but we really need to see the letter you were originally sent by TIL if at all possible, a copy of the reply you sent them before ideally, and a copy of whatever they then sent back to you, if they sent anything else to you before you got sent the court papers.

You should definitely make sure anything you send to them is checked here before you send it to get the wording correct

Do i have to send the letter via email or it has to be by post?

Possibly both - if the letters you have had from TIL (not from the court) have their e-mail address on it I suspect you can e-mail them. If you show us any letters you have had from TIL (blank out your name, address and any ref number before uploading) we can answer that question.

I'm grateful to have come across this forum, I've had sleepless nights since getting the summons letters

We can help you here for sure

So that you know - if this ends up in court it's not a very serious offence in the great scheme of things, but
- if you are found guilty (and I expect you would be from what you have said) you will receive a criminal record of the offence, that you will probably have to declare on job applications and such like for a period of time after the court verdict
and you will have to pay:
- the court will levy a fine (this is the punishment for the offence) - the fine is related to your income if you complete the relevant court income declaration paperwork
- something called a 'Victim Surcharge' - some more money basically
- costs of the train company (probably cost of a new ticket and their admin costs in taking you to court)

This will certainly add up to more money that the sum you were originally asked for, which is why getting them to re-instate that offer is your best option at the moment

The only slightly positive side of the court process is that you can pay the money to the court in installments. As you have found out TIL will not accept an out of court settlement payment in instalments


other questions:

1) Is English perhaps not your first language? (if so this is perhaps something that you can say to explain why you did not understand the ticket was not valid on the train you used for example)

2) Is your wife also being taken to court / been sent court papers? (did you both travel?)

Please can you upload all of the other paperwork as a matter of urgency
 
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spotify95

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2020
Messages
255
Location
Northamptonshire
Thank you for your reply. As it is now, I don't mind paying the fines or whatever costs. If they would let us set up a plan cos it's really a hard time for us. What we are most concerned about is having a criminal record over a silly mistake that was in no way intended.
I also noticed my last name was spelt wrongly on the letter. Missing two letters.

On the witness's account of what happened, they quoted me saying 'the officer in Swansea let me thru, how is it my fault'

From a 30 minutes plus back and forth , that's what they decided to pick from all i said.

I now have to plead guilty or not guilty.
As others have stated, if you was to make your plea now, it would more than likely have to be guilty - because if you went to court after pleading Not Guilty, the court will find you guilty under the railway bylaws.

Focus on trying to obtain a settlement (again) from TIL - though note that this may be difficult and if they don't get back to you, you'll need to send in your plea to the court. However if you do reach a settlement, it will need to be paid quickly.

If it did reach court (worst case) then you would have to pay:
A fine and victim surcharge - the fine is linked to your weekly income, the surcharge is an extra 40% of the fine. Both of these are reduced by 1/3 if you plead guilty at the earliest stage (so guilty to the SJPN).
Court costs and compensation - already stated £14 for the cost of the ticket and £100 court costs etc.

Though hopefully you can get TIL to re-settle before the court deadline as going through the court results in the criminal record.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
19,688
However if you do reach a settlement, it will need to be paid quickly.
I think it should be mentioned that the settlement figure could be higher than was originally offered, as TIL have now undertaken additional work on the case.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Unfortunately you and your wife should have read the ticket more carefully after you bought it and waited at the station for the correct train. This is almost certainly why the barrier would not open for your ticket. It's unfortunate that the barrier not opening was not enough of a clue to you, your wife or the member of staff who opened the barrier to let you through that you should not have been getting on the train that you got on. You have my sympathy but what has happened has happened.



So you have until a few days before that date to urgently contact TIL again to ask if they will re-instate the offer to settle the matter out of court and withdraw the court action. If it gets close to 17 April you must return the court papers to get to the court by 17th April. It might be that you could plead 'not guilty' to get a bit more time to agree the settlement but there are risks to that that you might pay a greater court fine in due course (because from what you have said you are guilty) - people here can advise you on that aspect next week. For the moment concentrate on dealing with TIL, and I suspect it best to not send the court papers back immediately


Possibly there is a chance yes, and it will cost you less if it can be settled out of court than it will cost in court, and there would be no criminal record if it is settled



We can advise you on that and help you get the wording correct - but we really need to see the letter you were originally sent by TIL if at all possible, a copy of the reply you sent them before ideally, and a copy of whatever they then sent back to you, if they sent anything else to you before you got sent the court papers.

You should definitely make sure anything you send to them is checked here before you send it to get the wording correct



Possibly both - if the letters you have had from TIL (not from the court) have their e-mail address on it I suspect you can e-mail them. If you show us any letters you have had from TIL (blank out your name, address and any ref number before uploading) we can answer that question.



We can help you here for sure

So that you know - if this ends up in court it's not a very serious offence in the great scheme of things, but
- if you are found guilty (and I expect you would be from what you have said) you will receive a criminal record of the offence, that you will probably have to declare on job applications and such like for a period of time after the court verdict
and you will have to pay:
- the court will levy a fine (this is the punishment for the offence) - the fine is related to your income if you complete the relevant court income declaration paperwork
- something called a 'Victim Surcharge' - some more money basically
- costs of the train company (probably cost of a new ticket and their admin costs in taking you to court)

This will certainly add up to more money that the sum you were originally asked for, which is why getting them to re-instate that offer is your best option at the moment

The only slightly positive side of the court process is that you can pay the money to the court in installments. As you have found out TIL will not accept an out of court settlement payment in instalments


other questions:

1) Is English perhaps not your first language? (if so this is perhaps something that you can say to explain why you did not understand the ticket was not valid on the train you used for example)

2) Is your wife also being taken to court / been sent court papers? (did you both travel?)

Please can you upload all of the other paperwork as a matter of urgency
Thank you so much for explaining things to me.

After the incident, the first letters we got a few days later was the ones offering us a chance to pay a settlement fee to avoid prosecution.

The letter contained a contact number and email. We then emailed to ask if we can have a plan to pay in three instalments. Unfortunately, that wasn't possible. They however agreed to extend the deadline by a few weeks till 21st Feb.

But somehow, i missed the deadkije date. And forgot about it.

Only for me to wake up to court papers last week.
 

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furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
4,381
Location
Reading
Another interesting case where the company is paraphrasing the law, arguably changing its meaning.

Byelaw 18.2 does not say "travelled on the railway and failed to produce a valid ticket when requested".

Rather it says: "A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person."

And the statement of facts says "The defendant presented an advance single ticket valid for a different service to the one being travelled on".

You "handed over" your ticket (for the purpose of inspection and verification of validity).

So did you breach the real 18.2 or not? Validity is only mentioned directly as a purpose of handing it over.

(Normally, a prosecution for not having a valid ticket would rely on a different law.)
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,074
Thank you so much for explaining things to me.

After the incident, the first letters we got a few days later was the ones offering us a chance to pay a settlement fee to avoid prosecution.

The letter contained a contact number and email. We then emailed to ask if we can have a plan to pay in three instalments. Unfortunately, that wasn't possible. They however agreed to extend the deadline by a few weeks till 21st Feb.

But somehow, i missed the deadkije date. And forgot about it.

Only for me to wake up to court papers last week.
Thanks for uploading those copies - they look like the court papers. They do at least clarify that you travelled on a train that your ticket was not valid for

It would also be extremely helpful to see copies of the letters or e-mails you had from TIL before it got to this stage - the ones you mention here:
The first letters we got a few days later was the ones offering us a chance to pay a settlement fee to avoid prosecution.

The letter contained a contact number and email. We then emailed to ask if we can have a plan to pay in three instalments. Unfortunately, that wasn't possible. They however agreed to extend the deadline by a few weeks till 21st Feb.

If you can upload copies of those please do so

However, you have got yourself in a mess really.

a) you bought a ticket and then did not understand when you could use it, so you used it on the wrong train where it had no validity (perhaps not fully your fault, trains tickets in the UK are more complex than they should be - advice for the future would be to use the ticket office at the station where a member of staff would ensure you had the right ticket)
b) they actually offered you a chance to resolve this by paying a sum of money rather than taking you to court (which is essentially an out of court settlement), you replied and asked if you could pay it in instalments. They don't do instalments because it is more hassle and work for them as people forget to pay their instalments regularly
c) although they did not offer you installments, they did give you some more time to pay the sum
d) You still did not pay them the sum or any of the sum
e) you forgot about it (presumably hoping the problem would go away)

If you look at it form their point of view you should be ale to understand why they believe that only taking you to court is going to get you to pay them what they believe you owe.

You probably have one last chance to sort this out before it proceeds to court prosecution. I suggest the following is what you can do and I hope this helps you sort things out

These are the tasks I think you should do

1) write to TIL (not the court) to ask if they will drop the court prosecution and re-instate their offer to let you pay the money along the lines they originally offered
2) make sure you have the money ready to pay in full and promptly if they say yes. You may need at least £200 for each person. You should find a legitimate legal way to have this money ready. Perhaps you can borrow it from a family member or trusted friend, or take on a small overdraft from your bank, or if you are involved in a church or similar see if they can help you with a loan
3) be aware of the court deadline for sending back the court paperwork. As it gets close to that deadline (later next day) check back here for advice on what to do if TIL have not replied to your request as per task (1) above

Regarding task 1 -

So long as this is all true then I would suggest sending something along these lines to TIL. It sounds like you have their e-mail address to use, but I would also print it off and send it by tracked first class post from a local post office. If you get to a post office before about 10.30am on Saturday morning you can get this sent that way too. Tracked post is much cheaper than what they offer as 'Guaranteed Next Day Delivery'

If you and your wife both have received the same thing from TIL and the court then you will both presumably need to write separately with your own different reference numbers. Use two different envelopes for the printed copies

---------------------------------------------------------

To: TIL address (e-mail and postal)


From: Insert your name and postal address, e-mail address and phone number & Date of Birth (as given on the paperwork you have received)


Dear Sir / Madam

Ref Number [Insert your reference number from previous letters from TIL]
Court Reference Number: [Insert any reference number from the court papers if this is different]

I am writing to you as I have recently received court papers regarding the occasion when I travelled with an Advance ticket but used this by mistake on the wrongly timed train. I am sincerely sorry for this mistake. I did not understand the rules associated with the ticket, which I bought just before my journey.

Please be assured that at no time did I have any intention to travel without paying a train fare, and I had no intention to deliberately evade paying for my train travel.

When I replied to your earlier correspondence I asked if I could pay the sum you requested in installments. This was because of financial hardship. I am sorry that I was unable to make a payment in the timescale you offered.

I apologise for having not been able to make this payment, and I am sorry for the additional efforts that this will have meant for you.

I am now writing to ask if you would kindly consider offering me another chance to settle this matter without court action against me, by once again letting me make a payment for the sum you consider appropriate. If this proceeds to court it will create greater financial difficulties and hardship for me and my family and I very much want to avoid this.

In future I will take great care to make sure my ticket is valid for my train travel so as to avoid making this mistake again.

I would be extremely grateful if you could consider allowing me to settle the matter without court action and withdraw the court proceedings. I would make prompt payment if you are kind enough to offer me this chance.

Yours sincerely

[Insert name, sign and print name on the posted copy]
 
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kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Unfortunately you and your wife should have read the ticket more carefully after you bought it and waited at the station for the correct train. This is almost certainly why the barrier would not open for your ticket. It's unfortunate that the barrier not opening was not enough of a clue to you, your wife or the member of staff who opened the barrier to let you through that you should not have been getting on the train that you got on. You have my sympathy but what has happened has happened.



So you have until a few days before that date to urgently contact TIL again to ask if they will re-instate the offer to settle the matter out of court and withdraw the court action. If it gets close to 17 April you must return the court papers to get to the court by 17th April. It might be that you could plead 'not guilty' to get a bit more time to agree the settlement but there are risks to that that you might pay a greater court fine in due course (because from what you have said you are guilty) - people here can advise you on that aspect next week. For the moment concentrate on dealing with TIL, and I suspect it best to not send the court papers back immediately


Possibly there is a chance yes, and it will cost you less if it can be settled out of court than it will cost in court, and there would be no criminal record if it is settled



We can advise you on that and help you get the wording correct - but we really need to see the letter you were originally sent by TIL if at all possible, a copy of the reply you sent them before ideally, and a copy of whatever they then sent back to you, if they sent anything else to you before you got sent the court papers.

You should definitely make sure anything you send to them is checked here before you send it to get the wording correct



Possibly both - if the letters you have had from TIL (not from the court) have their e-mail address on it I suspect you can e-mail them. If you show us any letters you have had from TIL (blank out your name, address and any ref number before uploading) we can answer that question.



We can help you here for sure

So that you know - if this ends up in court it's not a very serious offence in the great scheme of things, but
- if you are found guilty (and I expect you would be from what you have said) you will receive a criminal record of the offence, that you will probably have to declare on job applications and such like for a period of time after the court verdict
and you will have to pay:
- the court will levy a fine (this is the punishment for the offence) - the fine is related to your income if you complete the relevant court income declaration paperwork
- something called a 'Victim Surcharge' - some more money basically
- costs of the train company (probably cost of a new ticket and their admin costs in taking you to court)

This will certainly add up to more money that the sum you were originally asked for, which is why getting them to re-instate that offer is your best option at the moment

The only slightly positive side of the court process is that you can pay the money to the court in installments. As you have found out TIL will not accept an out of court settlement payment in instalments


other questions:

1) Is English perhaps not your first language? (if so this is perhaps something that you can say to explain why you did not understand the ticket was not valid on the train you used for example)

2) Is your wife also being taken to court / been sent court papers? (did you both travel?)

Please can you upload all of the other paperwork as a matter of urgency
I can't fine the first letter we were sent. Where we were first offered settlement.

Here's a draft of the letter i intend to send:

Dear Sir/Madam,



I am writing to express my sincere apologies on behalf of myself and my wife for traveling without a valid ticket on the journey. We now fully understand the seriousness of this issue and take complete responsibility for our actions.



On the day of the travel, as we walked to the train station, i pushed the pram with the baby while my wife booked the ticket on Train Pal app as we were almost running late. Unknown to her, the app somehow filtered the tickets and brought forward the advance tickets (which at that time my wife wasn't aware of. As she isn't a frequent traveller)



We only found out when we got to Cardiff train station and we couldn't open the barriers with our tickets. This was a genuine oversight on my part and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.



We both know that this does not excuse our

mistake, we take full responsibility and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused to Transport for Wales. We would ensure this does not happen again.



This incident has caused us considerable anxiety, especially with my wife as she struggles with post partum depression. We respectfully ask that you consider allowing us to settle this matter out of court by paying any outstanding fare and any administrative costs. We are fully committed to resolving this matter quickly and cooperatively.



Please accept our sincere apologies once more. We have learned a difficult lesson from this experience and can assure you that it will not be repeated.



We look forward to your response and resolving this as soon as possible.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Thanks for uploading those copies - they look like the court papers. They do at least clarify that you travelled on a train that your ticket was not valid for

It would also be extremely helpful to see copies of the letters or e-mails you had from TIL before it got to this stage - the ones you mention here:


If you can upload copies of those please do so

However, you have got yourself in a mess really.

a) you bought a ticket and then did not understand when you could use it, so you used it on the wrong train where it had no validity (perhaps not fully your fault, trains tickets in the UK are more complex than they should be - advice for the future would be to use the ticket office at the station where a member of staff would ensure you had the right ticket)
b) they actually offered you a chance to resolve this by paying a sum of money rather than taking you to court (which is essentially an out of court settlement), you replied and asked if you could pay it in instalments. They don't do instalments because it is more hassle and work for them as people forget to pay their instalments regularly
c) although they did not offer you installments, they did give you some more time to pay the sum
d) You still did not pay them the sum or any of the sum
e) you forgot about it (presumably hoping the problem would go away)

If you look at it form their point of view you should be ale to understand why they believe that only taking you to court is going to get you to pay them what they believe you owe.

You probably have one last chance to sort this out before it proceeds to court prosecution. I suggest the following is what you can do and I hope this helps you sort things out

These are the tasks I think you should do

1) write to TIL (not the court) to ask if they will drop the court prosecution and re-instate their offer to let you pay the money along the lines they originally offered
2) make sure you have the money ready to pay in full and promptly if they say yes. You may need at least £200 for each person. You should find a legitimate legal way to have this money ready. Perhaps you can borrow it from a family member or trusted friend, or take on a small overdraft from your bank, or if you are involved in a church or similar see if they can help you with a loan
3) be aware of the court deadline for sending back the court paperwork. As it gets close to that deadline (later next day) check back here for advice on what to do if TIL have not replied to your request as per task (1) above

Regarding task 1 -

So long as this is all true then I would suggest sending something along these lines to TIL. It sounds like you have their e-mail address to use, but I would also print it off and send it by tracked first class post from a local post office. If you get to a post office before about 10.30am on Saturday morning you can get this sent that way too. Tracked post is much cheaper than what they offer as 'Guaranteed Next Day Delivery'

If you and your wife both have received the same thing from TIL and the court then you will both presumably need to write separately with your own different reference numbers. Use two different envelopes for the printed copies


---------------------------------------------------------

To: TIL address (e-mail and postal)


From: Insert your name and postal address, e-mail address and phone number & Date of Birth (as given on the paperwork you have received)


Dear Sir / Madam

Ref Number [Insert your reference number from previous letters from TIL]
Court Reference Number: [Insert any reference number from the court papers if this is different]

I am writing to you as I have recently received court papers regarding the occasion when I travelled with an Advance ticket but used this by mistake on the wrongly timed train. I am sincerely sorry for this mistake. I did not understand the rules associated with the ticket, which I bought just before my journey.

Please be assured that at no time did I have any intention to travel without paying a train fare, and I had no intention to deliberately evade paying for my train travel.

When I replied to your earlier correspondence I asked if I could pay the sum you requested in installments. This was because of financial hardship. I am sorry that I was unable to make a payment in the timescale you offered.

I apologise for having not been able to make this payment, and I am sorry for the additional efforts that this will have meant for you.

I am now writing to ask if you would kindly consider offering me another chance to settle this matter without court action against me, by once again letting me make a payment for the sum you consider appropriate. If this proceeds to court it will create greater financial difficulties and hardship for me and my family and I very much want to avoid this.

In future I will take great care to make sure my ticket is valid for my train travel so as to avoid making this mistake again.

I would be extremely grateful if you could consider allowing me to settle the matter without court action and withdraw the court proceedings. I would make prompt payment if you are kind enough to offer me this chance.

Yours sincerely

[Insert name, sign and print name on the posted copy]
Thank you so much for this. I had just posted a copy of the draft letter i wrote before seeing this but it looks like it hasn't gone thru yet as moderators are going thru it first.
Thank you.
 

WesternLancer

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Messages
10,074
Thank you so much for this. I had just posted a copy of the draft letter i wrote before seeing this but it looks like it hasn't gone thru yet as moderators are going thru it first.
Thank you.
Ok. Feel free to use what you feel is best.
 

kefty

Member
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Location
swansea
Ok. Feel free to use what you feel is best.
Your draft looks much better. It's very direct and Straight to the point.

I was thinking I would write just one letter on behalf of myself and my wife. And then add both our reference numbers.
 

WesternLancer

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10,074
I was thinking I would write just one letter on behalf of myself and my wife. And then add both our reference numbers.
Perhaps that is possible to do. Of course if you do that make sure to add both your full names, dates of birth and associated reference numbers.

You should perhaps wait until the morning to see if other people here have suggestions or corrections. If it is e mail they will not have anyone to read it until Monday so you have time , but to post a copy it would be a good idea to post it Saturday morning with Royal Mail to ensure it is collected which on a Saturday would be about 11am

My view in the content is it needs to be pretty focussed on what you are trying to persuade them to do.
 

island

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17,338
Location
0036
Another interesting case where the company is paraphrasing the law, arguably changing its meaning.

Byelaw 18.2 does not say "travelled on the railway and failed to produce a valid ticket when requested".

Rather it says: "A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person."

And the statement of facts says "The defendant presented an advance single ticket valid for a different service to the one being travelled on".

You "handed over" your ticket (for the purpose of inspection and verification of validity).

So did you breach the real 18.2 or not? Validity is only mentioned directly as a purpose of handing it over.

(Normally, a prosecution for not having a valid ticket would rely on a different law.)
You are quite right. It appears they have charged a nonexistent offence – the real byelaw 18.2 does not mention the word "valid".
 

WesternLancer

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Messages
10,074
You are quite right. It appears they have charged a nonexistent offence – the real byelaw 18.2 does not mention the word "valid".
I’m thinking this line of argument might be one to adopt if this goes to court? Presumably in the court?

Of course the OP might not feel comfortable going to court and doing that.

So something to consider around 14th of April if TIL have not responded to or not agreed to the request to reinstate the settlement offer?
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
I can't fine the first letter we were sent. Where we were first offered settlement.

Here's a draft of the letter i intend to send:

Dear Sir/Madam,



I am writing to express my sincere apologies on behalf of myself and my wife for traveling without a valid ticket on the journey. We now fully understand the seriousness of this issue and take complete responsibility for our actions.



On the day of the travel, as we walked to the train station, i pushed the pram with the baby while my wife booked the ticket on Train Pal app as we were almost running late. Unknown to her, the app somehow filtered the tickets and brought forward the advance tickets (which at that time my wife wasn't aware of. As she isn't a frequent traveller)



We only found out when we got to Cardiff train station and we couldn't open the barriers with our tickets. This was a genuine oversight on my part and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.



We both know that this does not excuse our

mistake, we take full responsibility and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused to Transport for Wales. We would ensure this does not happen again.



This incident has caused us considerable anxiety, especially with my wife as she struggles with post partum depression. We respectfully ask that you consider allowing us to settle this matter out of court by paying any outstanding fare and any administrative costs. We are fully committed to resolving this matter quickly and cooperatively.



Please accept our sincere apologies once more. We have learned a difficult lesson from this experience and can assure you that it will not be repeated.



We look forward to your response and resolving this as soon as possible.
I can't fine the first letter we were sent. Where we were first offered settlement.

Here's a draft of the letter i intend to send:

Dear Sir/Madam,



I am writing to express my sincere apologies on behalf of myself and my wife for traveling without a valid ticket on the journey. We now fully understand the seriousness of this issue and take complete responsibility for our actions.



On the day of the travel, as we walked to the train station, i pushed the pram with the baby while my wife booked the ticket on Train Pal app as we were almost running late. Unknown to her, the app somehow filtered the tickets and brought forward the advance tickets (which at that time my wife wasn't aware of. As she isn't a frequent traveller)



We only found out when we got to Cardiff train station and we couldn't open the barriers with our tickets. This was a genuine oversight on my part and not an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.



We both know that this does not excuse our

mistake, we take full responsibility and deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused to Transport for Wales. We would ensure this does not happen again.



This incident has caused us considerable anxiety, especially with my wife as she struggles with post partum depression. We respectfully ask that you consider allowing us to settle this matter out of court by paying any outstanding fare and any administrative costs. We are fully committed to resolving this matter quickly and cooperatively.



Please accept our sincere apologies once more. We have learned a difficult lesson from this experience and can assure you that it will not be repeated.



We look forward to your response and resolving this as soon as possible.
@WesternLancer this is a copy of what i drafted before i saw your draft. Thank you for you suggestions and help, I'll wait and see what others think by morning.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

furlong

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Location
Reading
I’m thinking this line of argument might be one to adopt if this goes to court? Presumably in the court?
The problem is that it is difficult to navigate a situation like this without the help of someone experienced i.e. paying for a solicitor. The prosecutor could ask the court for permission to amend the charge, something you would want to argue against and various scenarios could play out, even needing to take contradictory positions at different stages of proceedings.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
Perhaps that is possible to do. Of course if you do that make sure to add both your full names, dates of birth and associated reference numbers.

You should perhaps wait until the morning to see if other people here have suggestions or corrections. If it is e mail they will not have anyone to read it until Monday so you have time , but to post a copy it would be a good idea to post it Saturday morning with Royal Mail to ensure it is collected which on a Saturday would be about 11am

My view in the content is it needs to be pretty focussed on what you are trying to persuade them to do.
Hello,

Since there haven't been any more additions or suggestions till now, I'll go ahead and send a letter via email using the template you drafted. And hope for the best.

Thank you.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
10,074
Hello,

Since there haven't been any more additions or suggestions till now, I'll go ahead and send a letter via email using the template you drafted. And hope for the best.

Thank you.
So long as you are happy with what you send and it’s accurate and truthful I would say best to get it to them now.
 

kefty

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2025
Messages
25
Location
swansea
So long as you are happy with what you send and it’s accurate and truthful I would say best to get it to them now.
I got a response. They want me to contact the court for any further correspondence.
 

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