help with train fine would be greatly appreciated

[zimelectric]

hi as of the 20/06/2023 i was coming from york to macclesfield train station, and i got on a train 2 hours early as i thought i had an open return, i realise this is my own fault. i was going from york to stalybridge and i was fined £135. the ticket lady was really nice but this is incredibly panick enducing, i would really appreciate help with reducing the cost and i can attach any extra information that would help

 

[furlong]

Were you handed any additional paperwork? Is there anything written on the back - if so, can you include a photo of that?

For example, what written instructions were you handed about how to appeal? What payment instructions were you given?

These things are important because the law sets out some very specific information that must be provided and without it all, the Penalty Fare would be unlikely to be enforceable.
For example, there has to be a statement saying you're entitled to a receipt if you pay it.

 

[zimelectric]

the back is empty and i wasn’t given written instructions but the ticket lady said i should appeal it online and that it won’t effect the price

 

[furlong]

How would you know where to look online? There is no URL on the images you uploaded. Is there definitely no more text underneath the signature?

You have to be handed IN WRITING information about how to appeal and how to pay.
If that didn't happen, then you can appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

Unfortunately the regulations are difficult to read at the moment because they were amended.
See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/5 but you have to read information in the pink box and apply the amendments.

Look at 5(2) - (g), (h), (i) and (j)

If this information was missing, then you can appeal under 16(3)(a). There were a couple of recent threads with examples of how to write appeals.

Signage also often doesn't comply at the moment and that might offer another ground if York doesn't have correct signs or they aren't in the right places.

 

[zimelectric]

How would you know where to look online? There is no URL on the images you uploaded. Is there definitely no more text underneath the signature?

You have to be handed IN WRITING information about how to appeal and how to pay.
If that didn't happen, then you can appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

Unfortunately the regulations are difficult to read at the moment because they were amended.
See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/5 but you have to read information in the pink box and apply the amendments.

Look at 5(2) - (g), (h), (i) and (j)

If this information was missing, then you can appeal under 16(3)(a). There were a couple of recent threads with examples of how to write appeals.

Signage also often doesn't comply at the moment and that might offer another ground if York doesn't have correct signs or they aren't in the right places.

i apologise, i forgot to include this, by written instructions i thought you meant a seperate note or something. i have learning difficulties so sorry that i misunderstood you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The unpaid fare element of the PF looks to be £34.20, which seems to be the cost of an Off Peak Single from York to just Huddersfield. As the OP had a combination of tickets (one an advance, the other an off peak single) which, together, involved travel via Sheffield, how did, or was, the OP going to continue their journey to Macclesfield? Isn't the OP expected, in a PF, to pay the cost of the appropriate single ticket for the journey being made, plus the £50/£100? Would they have been liable for a further PF if stopped (again) between Huddersfield and wherever it is that the Sheffield to Macclesfield portion of their ticket combination becomes valid?

P.S. Who was the ticket retailer? If 'Trainline', is this another example of them selling what they purport to be flexible ticket(s), but where one or more of the ticket combination is actually an inflexible advance ticket?

 

[janb]

P.S. Who was the ticket retailer? If 'Trainline', is this another example of them selling what they purport to be flexible ticket(s), but where one or more of the ticket combination is actually an inflexible advance ticket?

The SplitSave logo on the screenshot suggests it is Trainline. It is so common now because of this feature as staff to encounter people who think they have a normal day or open return ticket, and actually it's a split and includes or is wholly made up of Advance tickets.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The fare charged seems to be the Off-Peak Single fare York to Stalybridge.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Probably the prompt payment option is best. Not sure if there is any scope to request refunds on unused tickets.

 

[pelli]

P.S. Who was the ticket retailer? If 'Trainline', is this another example of them selling what they purport to be flexible ticket(s), but where one or more of the ticket combination is actually an inflexible advance ticket?

The SplitSave logo on the screenshot suggests it is Trainline. It is so common now because of this feature as staff to encounter people who think they have a normal day or open return ticket, and actually it's a split and includes or is wholly made up of Advance tickets.

When Trainline sells a SplitSave including an Advance leg, the small print does state "Specified train(s) only" (see attached image), so I don't think any claim that the ticket was mis-sold would hold water (although it would be clearer if the large-print ticket type said "SplitSave (Advance)" instead of just "SplitSave"). I don't know what the "ticket" (i.e. the entry for the journey in the app, from which one can tap through to the actual E-tickets) looks like after purchase though.

I believe it was actually Chiltern (with a Silverrail backend) that was found to sell an "Anytime Day Single" that turned out, when the tickets came out of the Ticket Vending Machine, to be a split including an advance leg.

 

[Krokodil]

The SplitSave logo on the screenshot suggests it is Trainline. It is so common now because of this feature as staff to encounter people who think they have a normal day or open return ticket, and actually it's a split and includes or is wholly made up of Advance tickets.

Or to select "Open Return" and find themselves offered Day Returns, or splits that involve Day Returns. They then wonder why their ticket disappeared overnight.

They won't have a leg to stand on though, "specified train only" "return same day" or "Northern only" are stipulated at the point of sale.

 

[island]

Unfortunately you chose to purchase a ticket valid for CrossCountry only and to use it on TransPennine Express. TPE won't have received any of the money paid for the York to Sheffield ticket. You also purchased a ticket to travel at 16:37 but travelled earlier, and your route would not have called at Sheffield, which is required when using split tickets. As such it appears to me that a Penalty Fare was properly issued in this scenario, and will need to be paid before it goes up unless someone can identify another reason why not. There are frequently issues with station signage which may invalidate a Penalty Fare, perhaps one of the forum members local to York station can investigate.

The unpaid fare element of the PF looks to be £34.20, which seems to be the cost of an Off Peak Single from York to just Huddersfield.

Stalybridge actually. This is correct, a PF issued onboard a train is to be issued based on the fare from the station where the passenger joined the train to the next station at which the train is due to call. The train in question would (I think) have called at Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Manchester V, and onward towards Liverpool L.

As the OP had a combination of tickets (one an advance, the other an off peak single) which, together, involved travel via Sheffield, how did, or was, the OP going to continue their journey to Macclesfield?

They would have needed to purchase a new ticket to travel onwards, which I think would need to be Stalybridge to Manchester Ctlz for £4.90. This could be purchased from the conductor or at the station.

Isn't the OP expected, in a PF, to pay the cost of the appropriate single ticket for the journey being made, plus the £50/£100?

No, as above.

Would they have been liable for a further PF if stopped (again) between Huddersfield and wherever it is that the Sheffield to Macclesfield portion of their ticket combination becomes valid?

Yes, if they didn't purchase a new ticket.

P.S. Who was the ticket retailer? If 'Trainline', is this another example of them selling what they purport to be flexible ticket(s), but where one or more of the ticket combination is actually an inflexible advance ticket?

It does look to be Trainline yes. I have no idea what the ticket "purported" to be at the point of sale.

The fare charged seems to be the Off-Peak Single fare York to Stalybridge.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Probably the prompt payment option is best.

Agreed.

Not sure if there is any scope to request refunds on unused tickets.

Unused flexible tickets can be refunded subject to an admin fee, but the unused advance ticket cannot.

 

[WesternLancer]

Very pedantic point but the revenue presently just ends up in the government coffers regardless of which operator was used.

either way the point is of no help to the OP really, in terms of what options they have now.

I suspect the best advice to give to the OP, sadly, is that they should pay the penalty fare promptly to resolve the matter, and chalk it up to experience (and hope they stop buying their tickets from Trainline which has clearly contributed, in some way at least) to the OP's misunderstanding.

If there is any basis for an Appeal I would urge the OP to at least submit one (it helps prevent matters escalating to risk of prosecution) but on the basis of what has been set out here I would not expect an Appeal to be successful.

I feel very sorry for the OP who has mentioned that they have learning difficulties, so you would hope some discretion could be shown, but I fear there is minimal chance of that sadly.

 

[zimelectric]

either way the point is of no help to the OP really, in terms of what options they have now.

I suspect the best advice to give to the OP, sadly, is that they should pay the penalty fare promptly to resolve the matter, and chalk it up to experience (and hope they stop buying their tickets from Trainline which has clearly contributed, in some way at least) to the OP's misunderstanding.

If there is any basis for an Appeal I would urge the OP to at least submit one (it helps prevent matters escalating to risk of prosecution) but on the basis of what has been set out here I would not expect an Appeal to be successful.

I feel very sorry for the OP who has mentioned that they have learning difficulties, so you would hope some discretion could be shown, but I fear there is minimal chance of that sadly.

it’s okay, where would you reccomend purchasing tickets from? even if there isn’t any positive outcome i appreciate everyone giving advice

 

[andrew749]

it’s okay, where would you reccomend purchasing tickets from? even if there isn’t any positive outcome i appreciate everyone giving advice

From https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ or from a Train Operating Company website

 

[Krokodil]

Or go direct to a booking office where you can speak to a human for advice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When Trainline sells a SplitSave including an Advance leg, the small print does state "Specified train(s) only"..

Indeed. But does it show what it is that you're actually booking, before you get to the payment stage?

 

[pelli]

When Trainline sells a SplitSave including an Advance leg, the small print does state "Specified train(s) only"..

Indeed. But does it show what it is that you're actually booking, before you get to the payment stage?

It's easy to miss, but on the payment page I attached above if you tap the "(i)" next to "SplitSave" (which I originally thought would lead to a generic page explaining what SplitSave is), then it shows the split points and tickets involved, e.g. "Advance Single, York to Sheffield" (see attachment), which you can tap to see further details about but apparently no prices. (For purely walk-up splits the small print on the payment page states "Trains must call at X", so you can infer where the split is without tapping the "(i)".)

 

[30907]

Some sympathy with the OP here, as York-Sheffield-Stockport-Macclesfield isn't an (to me) an intuitive route. It's not grounds for appeal, but I wonder if a complaint to Trainline might get somewhere? At least a goodwill payment, or cancellation of the unused Advance.

 

[furlong]

There might be questions around misselling, whether the process was sufficiently clear about the difference between the tickets you were sold and the journey you had searched for. You'd need to reproduce the steps you went through then attempt to make an objective assessment as to whether it explained things sufficiently clearly. If you don't think it did and you didn't know you were buying tickets 'locked' onto specific trains, you could try an appeal under the 'compelling reasons' category, or if that goes nowhere, attempt to claim the additional cost of the penalty back from the retailer. Do the e-tickets include clear explanations of their validity separate from the screenshots you showed us? (Those images are clearly inadequate as they are missing key text that would have been printed on physical equivalents.) The problem for you is that, even if inappropriate tickets were sold, that ought to have been pretty obvious to you afterwards. While the train companies have a duty to explain things properly and only sell you appropriate tickets, you also have a duty to check what you get sold.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's easy to miss, but on the payment page I attached above if you tap the "(i)" next to "SplitSave" (which I originally thought would lead to a generic page explaining what SplitSave is), then it shows the split points and tickets involved, e.g. "Advance Single, York to Sheffield" (see attachment), which you can tap to see further details about but apparently no prices. (For purely walk-up splits the small print on the payment page states "Trains must call at X", so you can infer where the split is without tapping the "(i)".)

Interesting. So basically not very clear to someone who might think that buying a ticket from A to B on a website would be pretty straightforward without clear warnings that they MUST stick to the itinerary provided or their ticket has no validity. At which point it starts to become unclear and thus the whole saga becomes a bit of a mystery to the avg passenger....

 

[island]

Interesting. So basically not very clear to someone who might think that buying a ticket from A to B on a website would be pretty straightforward without clear warnings that they MUST stick to the itinerary provided or their ticket has no validity. At which point it starts to become unclear and thus the whole saga becomes a bit of a mystery to the avg passenger....

I think if you asked a hundred random train passengers “if I book a ticket for the 16:37 train can I use it at 13:00 instead” very few would give you an unqualified “yes”, the answers would be in the nature of “no”, “you’d probably have to pay more” or “I’d ask at the ticket office”.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think if you asked a hundred random train passengers “if I book a ticket for the 16:37 train can I use it at 13:00 instead” very few would give you an unqualified “yes”, the answers would be in the nature of “no”, “you’d probably have to pay more” or “I’d ask at the ticket office”.

I suppose my comment was more about how the retailer makes that 100% clear to purchasers than what people might think.

 

[fandroid]

One problem with splits (and this applies to the Forum's ticket service too) is that the retailer will look for any saving at all on each leg, however tiny. So a journey that is fulfilled mostly by flexible tickets can have a fixed Advance leg inserted somewhere. The purchaser possibly ends up saving next to nothing on that particular leg, but loses a whole bucket-load of flexibility.
I don't know what that York to Sheffield Advance single cost, but XC don't normally give much in the way of a discount.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

An Anytime Day Single, York to Macclesfield (route "Any Permitted") would be £51 before railcard discount.

An Off Peak Single, Sheffield to Macclesfield (route "via Stockport") would be £28.50, again before any railcard discount.

An Off Peak Day Single, York to Sheffield (route "Any Permitted") is £21.70, before discount, so a negligible 80p "saving" and you're also restricted to travelling via Sheffield.

If the only advance fare ("XC Only") available between York and Sheffield is the one priced at £16.90, that's an overall journey total of £45.40, as @pelli has established upthread, so a bigger "saving", of £5.60 before any discount, but at the expense of quite a lot of flexibility.

But Trainline will have successfully sold "cheaper" tickets! Job done!

 

[fandroid]

As well as Advances there are semi-flexible tickets sold as "TOC only". I have been caught out with that on split tickets, only realising just before I ventured into the wrong train that I had a Transpennine Express only single from York to Newcastle. There are plenty of traps for the unwary in the kaleidoscopic nightmare of GB rail ticketing. I'm a really experienced train traveller, but am still learning and most of it isn't how to save money, but how to avoid an accidental Penalty Fare!

 

[Haywain]

One problem with splits (and this applies to the Forum's ticket service too) is that the retailer will look for any saving at all on each leg, however tiny. So a journey that is fulfilled mostly by flexible tickets can have a fixed Advance leg inserted somewhere.

The forum ticket service (Trainsplit) allows you to select fixed or flexible ticket options so as to overcome such problems. Where Trainline differs is that it offers splits when they haven't been asked for and doesn’t then (AFAIK) offer flexibility or not.