Horsham to East croydon over run

[sarahj]

This is a one for RJ and all the others.

Tonight on my train from Brighton to Victoria I had a passenger who showed me a weekly from Horsham to Redhill. The problem was we were past redhill and on our way to east croydon. I told the passenger that her ticket was not valid, but she was adamant(?) that she could use it to East Croydon. I informed her this was not so, but she said she used it all the time, never had any bother and even used it to exit the station at East Croydon with no issues. I thought this unlikely, esp as she had an oyster card as well. Since there was no arguing with her, I moved on,but marked her ticket, not valid to ECR. but also informed East Croydon as well as passing on her details to the folks who watch out for this kind of thing.. I also spoke to someone on the phone at customer info who said, no it was not valid. But it got me thinking.

Anyway, a 7 day season Horsham to Redhill is 37.80
Horsham to East Croydon is 60.00

Now my guess is, a horsham to redhill might be valid say from Horsham to Dorking, then walk to Deepdene and onto Redhill via Reigate, but there is no way its valid via East Croydon, but is there something in the routing guide that I'm missing, or was she, lets say, taking the micheal and using her Oyster to exit East Croydon?

SJ

 

[bb21]

Not valid AFAIK.

 

[John @ home]

I agree that a Horsham - Redhill ticket is not valid via Croydon. My calculation is:

Horsham is a Routeing Point.
Redhill is a member of Redhill Group Routeing Point.
Permitted Routes Horsham - Redhill are shown on map LB, map LP and map SD.
Map LB and map LP allow Horsham - Crawley - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - Redhill.
Map SD allows Horsham - Ockley - Dorking Group - Reigate - Redhill.

 

[maniacmartin]

or was she, lets say, taking the micheal and using her Oyster to exit East Croydon?

Quite possibly, because it's not valid on her season (although this is just the sort of route you have to check as the Routeing Guide allows many similar routes!)

 

[greatkingrat]

You could argue that travel via Purley is permitted as if you go Horsham - Purley (via Quarry Lines) - Redhill you are not actually passing through any station twice.

 

[LexyBoy]

You could argue that travel via Purley is permitted as if you go Horsham - Purley (via Quarry Lines) - Redhill you are not actually passing through any station twice.

The Quarry Lines are not distinguished on the Routeing Guide maps from the main lines, so there is doubling back as far as the Routeing Guide is concerned.

 

[island]

The Quarry Lines are not distinguished on the Routeing Guide maps from the main lines, so there is doubling back as far as the Routeing Guide is concerned.

Disagree. The Routeing Guide specifically defines doubling back in terms of passing through the same station twice, which is why we have endless arguments about whether you passed through a station when your train used an avoiding line, such as at St Johns.

 

[maniacmartin]

I thought that if a line is not shown on the relevant Routeing Guide map, then it is not permitted as a mapped route.

 

[sarahj]

But we were not on the quarry line, we were on a train going and stopping at Redhill, ie via the merstham route, and she admitted to me, East Croydon was her final destination, in fact was her usual destination.

She did give me an evil look as she got off at East croydon and walked passed me standing on the platform, meanwhile the gateline were being informed to watch out for her as she had travelled there on a Horsham - Redhill ticket. Not sure what happened next.

 

[LexyBoy]

Disagree. The Routeing Guide specifically defines doubling back in terms of passing through the same station twice, which is why we have endless arguments about whether you passed through a station when your train used an avoiding line, such as at St Johns.

Yes, but I thought that we had come to the conclusion that (in most cases at least), if the avoiding line is not shown distinctly on the RG maps then it is considered as part of the main line which goes through the stations shown? It is less clear cut when the stations concerned are not routeing points I'll grant though - I was thinking of e.g. Didcot (avoider not shown and therefore passes through station) and Gloucester (avoider shown and therefore does not pass through station).

I'll accept that it's debateable, but I'd not want to make that argument to justify my ticket though!

I thought that if a line is not shown on the relevant Routeing Guide map, then it is not permitted as a mapped route.

That's one interpretation, but in this case that would mean that those trains using the Quarry Lines could never be used by anyone travelling using a mapped route! E.g. someone travelling Southampton to Brighton on a Not Via London ticket would have to find out which line their CLJ-BTN train was booked to run on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But we were not on the quarry line, we were on a train going and stopping at Redhill, ie via the merstham route, and she admitted to me, East Croydon was her final destination, in fact was her usual destination.

If you were to consider the ticket valid via Purley then it wouldn't matter which route you were on, as a Season is valid for journeys between any intermediate stations so would be valid on the main line from Redhill to Purley as well.

In any case it would still not be valid to Croydon, and I can well imagine she was looking rather miffed at being rumbled. If it was deliberate fare evasion though it seems a rather odd ticket choice - why not go for something even cheaper - or are ticket checks much more common south of Redhill? Given that she seems to have had an Oyster Travelcard as well I doubt she was even saving much over a Horley-Z56 Travelcard...

 

[John @ home]

I thought that if a line is not shown on the relevant Routeing Guide map, then it is not permitted as a mapped route.

I have taken the view that:

• when a map shows a line between two adjacent Routeing Points, with no intermediate stations marked, then any route between the two RPs is valid which does not double back and does not pass through any other RP, and
• when a map shows a line between two adjacent Routeing Points, with an intermediate station marked, then only route(s) between the two RPs which pass through the marked station and do not pass through any other RP is/are valid.

It seems to me that this interpretation is in accordance with the Instructions in the Routing Guide. By this interpretation, Horsham - Crawley - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - Quarry Line - Purley - Redhill is a Permitted mapped route on map LB and map LP. But you still can't get to Croydon!

The electronic booking engines take a more restricted interpretation than this.

 

[sarahj]

Perhaps she was taking the view that her ticket was valid to purley, then her oyster was valid from purley to croydon and since she had a season, the train did not have to stop at purley, as per 19C (I think). However, on this train, with a stopping pattern of Three Bridges, Gatwick, Redhill, East Croydon.... then the only doubling back, would have been on the same line, but would have been valid on the FCC following on 10 mins behind, which would have taken the quarry (and prob had no ticket checks).

But the odd thing is, she said, it was her season that was valid, and In fact did not mention the oyster, which i only noticed when I took the ticket out of the wallet to mark, 'not valid to ecr'. She said marking it is wrong as its her ticket. I informed her that 'the ticket is the property of the railway and can be withdrawn or confiscated if the ticket was being abused and was being marked as a reminder on what is valid', ie no different to circling the 'FCC only' note, or writing on the times valid for a super off peak.

SJ

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps she was taking the view that her ticket was valid to purley, then her oyster was valid from purley to croydon and since she had a season, the train did not have to stop at purley, as per 19C (I think).

If the train didn't stop at Purley, then she wouldn't be able to get off and touch in with the Oyster there. Therefore, it would have to be a season on the Oyster and the paper season you saw. But 19(c) only allows you to use one season ticket for combinations where the train does not call at the station you change over, so it would not be valid anyway

If she was trying to use an obscure mapped route via Purley and combine 2 routes using the season, I would have expected her to try and explain this to some degree. I doubt she even was aware of a possible validity via the Quarry lines and how that could be combined with the more obvious route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have taken the view that:

• when a map shows a line between two adjacent Routeing Points, with no intermediate stations marked, then any route between the two RPs which does not double back is valid, and
• when a map shows a line between two adjacent Routeing Points, with an intermediate station marked, then only route(s) between the two RPs which pass through the marked station is/are valid.

It seems to me that this interpretation is in accordance with the Instructions in the Routing Guide. By this interpretation, Horsham - Crawley - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - Quarry Line - Purley - Redhill is a Permitted mapped route on map LB and map LP. But you still can't get to Croydon!

The electronic booking engines take a more restricted interpretation than this.

Upon closer examination, I would agree with this interpretation

 

[sarahj]

If her ticket had been Redhill to Horsham, would that have made a difference, or would the two main routes, still have been via three bridges and via Dorking, and not some obscure route via Balham, then dorking-horsham, and technically no doubling back?

 

[maniacmartin]

"Between Redhill & Horsham" and "Between Horsham & Redhill" have the same mapped routes (in reverse obviously)

I think that the mapped routes should be the same when swapping the origin and destination for any pair of stations, but it's possible that the Routeing Guide has some inconsistencies there.

A rare case where X to Y may have different valid routes than Y to X is when the shortest route which passenger services can take is different in each direction (e.g. involving rural station which only has trains or platforms in one direction, such as a token Parliamentary service). I don't think that applies to Redhill - Horsham though.

 

[soil]

You could do this journey on a Box Hill - Earlswood season - Horsham - Earlswood, plus Earlswood - East Croydon. It is I think only valid on trains that call at Earlswood, since you would essentially be making two journeys on one ticket, starting short at Horsham on a Box Hill - Horsham - Earlswood ticket, and then from Earlswood using the return element of the ticket to travel Earlswood - East Croydon and finishing short there rather than continue back to Box Hill via West Croydon and Sutton.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps she was taking the view that her ticket was valid to purley, then her oyster was valid from purley to croydon and since she had a season, the train did not have to stop at purley, as per 19C (I think).

That would only be possible if a single or return ticket was held on the smart card.

In this case, using Oyster, there are only two products applicable: either a Travelcard Season (which would require the train to call - because that's two seasons!) or Oyster PAYG (which would also require the train to call - because she'd need to touch in!).

Oyster is a medium rather than a product, but there is no product that could be held on that medium that would allow the journey to be undertaken in this way, and if there was then the card would need to be presented.

 

[Prairie_5542]

Why doesn't she get on a train at Horsham that goes via Gatwick Airport to Redhill?

 

[maniacmartin]

Why doesn't she get on a train at Horsham that goes via Gatwick Airport to Redhill?

Perhaps she had no intention of going to Redhill, and wanted a cheap (invalid) way to get to east Croydon to touch in her Oyster...

 

[Prairie_5542]

Possibly! Fare dodgers will do anything these days!

 

[LexyBoy]

There's nothing wrong with using a ticket to travel somewhere other than the destination printed on the ticket... as long as it's allowed by the conditions of the ticket and the permitted routes!

 

[kieron]

She hasn't really gained anything, though, as a Warnham-Redhill season costs the same, and is valid to Croydon (and beyond) via Dorking on map CS, as well as via Horsham.

brfares.com reckon a season ticket is cheaper on a smartcard from Horsham than Warnham, but Southern disagree.

 

[soil]

She hasn't really gained anything, though, as a Warnham-Redhill season costs the same, and is valid to Croydon (and beyond) via Dorking on map CS, as well as via Horsham.

brfares.com reckon a season ticket is cheaper on a smartcard from Horsham than Warnham, but Southern disagree.

Hmm.

Is map CS still valid in the absence of a Hayes & Harlington - Kensington Olympia service?

How would you complete the journey on map CS?

 

[RJ]

This is a one for RJ and all the others.

Tonight on my train from Brighton to Victoria I had a passenger who showed me a weekly from Horsham to Redhill. The problem was we were past redhill and on our way to east croydon. I told the passenger that her ticket was not valid, but she was adamant(?) that she could use it to East Croydon. I informed her this was not so, but she said she used it all the time, never had any bother and even used it to exit the station at East Croydon with no issues. I thought this unlikely, esp as she had an oyster card as well. Since there was no arguing with her, I moved on,but marked her ticket, not valid to ECR. but also informed East Croydon as well as passing on her details to the folks who watch out for this kind of thing.. I also spoke to someone on the phone at customer info who said, no it was not valid. But it got me thinking.

Anyway, a 7 day season Horsham to Redhill is 37.80
Horsham to East Croydon is 60.00

Now my guess is, a horsham to redhill might be valid say from Horsham to Dorking, then walk to Deepdene and onto Redhill via Reigate, but there is no way its valid via East Croydon, but is there something in the routing guide that I'm missing, or was she, lets say, taking the micheal and using her Oyster to exit East Croydon?

SJ

Hi,

I think she was pulling your leg - did she attempt to explain why she thought it was valid, other than it not being previously picked up on? I don't see any reason why a Horsham to Redhill ticket might be valid via Croydon.

Hmm.

Is map CS still valid in the absence of a Hayes & Harlington - Kensington Olympia service?

How would you complete the journey on map CS?

There is a service that links Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway. To complete the journey using map CS, you use that service.

 

[soil]

There is a service that links Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway. To complete the journey using map CS, you use that service.

This service was supposed to have been cancelled on December 4th 2012, and has possibly/probably been cancelled since then.

http://heretothereshop.com/blog/?p=1074

 

[sarahj]

Nope, she just sat there and said it was valid, she had used it before, never had any problems at East Croydon when I informed her she would be be getting a PF there. I did what I mentioned, ie marked her ticket, then moved on, while informing those that need to know what she was doing. As i said, the last time I saw her was walking up the ramp while messages were being passed to gateline, just after her evil stare as she passed me on the platform. Do not know, and perhaps never will know what happened next.

SJ

 

[southerner2174]

Sounds like someone just trying it on, would have been interesting if you had been able to have scanned her oyster card to see what actually was on it.
Reminds me of the time a bloke on my Victoria-Horsham stopper was trying to use a Balham-Epsom weekly to go to Redhill.
Caught him just after Coulsdon South, as usual got all lippy and got ejected at Merstham, best bit was he was on the same train the following night, unfortunately for him got caught and ejected at Coulsdon South.

 

[sarahj]

Yeah, I was thinking that, alas, I only had a key reader with me as I was doing seafords earlier that night.