How are train service 'identities' (like 9X99) pronounced by rail staff?

[akm]

Just wondering. Take for example 1P16 from London Liverpool Street to Norwich today. Would it be pronounced:

"one pee one six"
"one pee sixteen"
"one papa one six"
"one papa sixteen"

or something else? In particular I'm wondering if there's a phonetic alphabet that differs from the NATO one.

 

[pdeaves]

"one papa one six"

In my experience, this one (using the standard phonetic alphabet at all times).

"one six" is unambiguous, "sixteen" can sound like "sixty".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did notice in the BBC documentary about the opening of Crossrail, the staff in the control centre were using the term "yankee" when identifying a train with headcode 9Yxx towards Paddington.

 

[Horizon22]

Phonetic (NATO) alphabet and each digit individually.

So “one papa one six” or “nine x-ray nine nine”.

I’ve heard “one papa sixteen” before but very rarely and normally from less experienced staff.

I did notice in the BBC documentary about the opening of Crossrail, the staff in the control centre were using the term "yankee" when identifying a train with headcode 9Yxx towards Paddington.

Which is the phonetic alphabet for the letter Y. 9Yxx headcodes are (currently) to Paddington from Abbey Wood

 

[JN114]

Individual Digits
Phonetics for the Letters
None of the Americanised “Niner” rubbish for 9.

 

[Magdalia]

The current system of headcodes is more than 60 years old, but use of the standard phonetic alphabet is a relatively recent thing. When and how did it start?

 

[westv]

The current system of headcodes is more than 60 years old, but use of the standard phonetic alphabet is a relatively recent thing.

I'm surprised.
C can sound like B or P for example.

 

[Mike99]

I'm surprised.
C can sound like B or P for example.

You are quite correct, hence the use of phonetics, Charlie, Bravo and Papa in your example

 

[74A]

I'm surprised.
C can sound like B or P for example.

Not when you say Charlie Bravo and Papa. Railway started making its use compulsory about 25 years ago.

 

[Spartacus]

I know it was established practice when I joined nearly 20 years ago.

 

[Horizon22]

The current system of headcodes is more than 60 years old, but use of the standard phonetic alphabet is a relatively recent thing. When and how did it start?

Define ‘recent’ - it’s definitely been going on for 20 years, almost certainly since privatisation and I think there are railway videos from the 1980s which show operational staff speaking phonetically.

 

[Western Lord]

Individual Digits
Phonetics for the Letters
None of the Americanised “Niner” rubbish for 9.

Niner is not Americanised rubbish. It is standard RT practice worldwide and can be heard in British WW2 films.

 

[Horizon22]

Niner is not Americanised rubbish. It is standard RT practice worldwide and can be heard in British WW2 films.

It may not be, but the NATO alphabet wasn’t used in WW2 (for a start NATO didn’t exist). A variant was used. Things like “Able” & “Fox”.

 

[weastebusdepot]

Also 0 is "zero" and not "oh". One thing that always grates is hearing the automated station announcements to "text the British Transport Police on 61 oh 16".

 

[Western Lord]

It may not be, but the NATO alphabet wasn’t used in WW2 (for a start NATO didn’t exist). A variant was used. Things like “Able” & “Fox”.

What has the NATO alphabet got to do with a number? Niner means nine. It is intended to avoid confusion with five (which was typically pronounced "fife") in possibly fuzzy radio communications.

 

[choochoochoo]

Individual Digits
Phonetics for the Letters
None of the Americanised “Niner” rubbish for 9.

Niner is useful when working in international environment. Nine sounds like the German word for 'no'.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The current system of headcodes is more than 60 years old, but use of the standard phonetic alphabet is a relatively recent thing. When and how did it start?

The current official phonetic alphabet, that is now used worldwide, was adopted in the late 1950s, so is also over 60 years old. Officially it's the (International) Radiotelephony Spelling Alphabet (often referred to as the NATO Phonetic Alphabet).

(It had been revised over the years since WW2 in order to account for discrepancies that might arise when communicating as a result of there previously being multiple other alphabet naming systems co-existing in different places and organizations).

P.S. Nine(r) has the extra syllable to make it a different sound from the German for "No".

 

[pdeaves]

A form of 'phonetic alphabet' was in use on GWR in 1939, it's reproduced here: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/features/telegraph.shtm#official. It bears no resemblance to today's standard terms (the majority are men's names). It's interesting to see that Z was 'Zero', later changed. I leave it to the reader to decide why that was necessary!

 

[westv]

Also 0 is "zero" and not "oh". One thing that always grates is hearing the automated station announcements to "text the British Transport Police on 61 oh 16".

I think almost everybody says "oh" when there's a zero in a telephone number.

 

[Signal_Box]

5POO for 5P00 or 5H15 for **** down the main.

 

[Taunton]

Individual Digits
Phonetics for the Letters
None of the Americanised “Niner” rubbish for 9.

Unfortunately "Niner" (and "Fife" etc) are actually part of the standard international phonetic pronunciation. 9 became Niner to avoid confusion by German speakers with Nein for No. Any American (and especially non-English native speaker) using it is well trained.

 

[westv]

You would have thought that German speakers would know that 9 isn't "no" when they are listening to English rather than German.

 

[choochoochoo]

Unfortunately "Niner" (and "Fife" etc) are actually part of the standard international phonetic pronunciation. 9 became Niner to avoid confusion by German speakers with Nein for No. Any American using it is well trained.

Although niner is the approved pronunciation by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (along with 'three' being 'tree')

 

[zwk500]

A form of 'phonetic alphabet' was in use on GWR in 1939, it's reproduced here: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/features/telegraph.shtm#official. It bears no resemblance to today's standard terms (the majority are men's names). It's interesting to see that Z was 'Zero', later changed. I leave it to the reader to decide why that was necessary!

As were a large proportion of words in early WW1 and WW2 military codes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_alphabet#Radiotelephony_spelling_alphabets. Charlie and Oscar have survived into today's alphabet.

You would have thought that German speakers would know that 9 isn't "no" when they are listening to English rather than German.

Nein/Neun/Nine/No are all quite easy to confuse if English isn't your first language and you're listening on a crackly radio.

 

[Ken H]

My dad used a phonetic alphabet in WW2 (Bomber command wireless op). But there were a few differences to the current one. And there were unofficial ones like 'popsy' for P. Popsy was a current term for an attractive young lady! Think B was Baker.

 

[High Dyke]

Also 0 is "zero" and not "oh". One thing that always grates is hearing the automated station announcements to "text the British Transport Police on 61 oh 16".

That annoys me as well.

I volunteered on a heritage railway over thirty years ago; it was used on there.

 

[Ianigsy]

I did notice in the BBC documentary about the opening of Crossrail, the staff in the control centre were using the term "yankee" when identifying a train with headcode 9Yxx towards Paddington.

I can see some American tourists doing double-takes at Heathrow if one of the platform staff happened to be on the phone to the control room!

 

[AM9]

You would have thought that German speakers would know that 9 isn't "no" when they are listening to English rather than German.

With increased dependance of telephone bookings etc., I've got used to using 'niner' although depending on the line quality, I usually abbreviate the 'a' after the nine to an emphasis of the n with an abrupt stop. In the big scheme of things, I abhor many unnecessary americanisms, but this one is a useful enhancement to getting the right message across.

 

[Western Lord]

With increased dependance of telephone bookings etc., I've got used to using 'niner' although depending on the line quality, I usually abbreviate the 'a' after the nine to an emphasis of the n with an abrupt stop. In the big scheme of things, I abhor many unnecessary americanisms, but this one is a useful enhancement to getting the right message across.

As related above, I do not believe that it is an "americanism".

 

[AM9]

As related above, I do not believe that it is an "americanism".

The first time that I heard it was on 'Whirlybirds' (remember that?) - they always used it when on the radio comm. I though it naff then and it would be logical if it did originate in the US given that the population is mainly composed of non-UK english speakers. In more recent time is see the value of it.