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How could Sheffield station be improved?

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Philip

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Sheffield is one of the major cities in the UK, yet its mainline station and service offering is small compared with the main city centre stations of similar cities (like Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester). It's made worse by the current station being the only one in the city centre. What do people think could be done to bring Sheffield into line with New Street, Leeds and Piccadilly etc?

There are obvious things like electrification and the Hope Valley/Dore Junction upgrade, but what about other solutions? Could Nunnery Junction be re-modelled so that a new spur leaves the Worksop line to the NW of the Midland line and goes into the north side of the station, reducing conflicts? Could Victoria be reopened and serve the Worksop line and other trains terminating at Sheffield? Also, whilst the approach with its fountains is very pleasant, would this space be better used by building extra platforms with a new entrance at road level?

What are people's thoughts?
 
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Philip

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What do you mean by "the only one in the city centre"?

It is the only station in the city centre; Manchester has 3 major ones and a couple of extra smaller stations; Birmingham has 3; Leeds has 1 but this is much bigger than Sheffield Station.
 

greyman42

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It is the only station in the city centre; Manchester has 3 major ones and a couple of extra smaller stations; Birmingham has 3; Leeds has 1 but this is much bigger than Sheffield Station.
OK. It was the fact that you mentioned Leeds that threw me.
 

Iskra

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To me the problems with Sheffield station are:

- narrow, poorly designed/traffic-segregated walkways that cause conflict, congestion or confusion.
- lack of ticket barriers- fare evasion must be sky high from what I see on my travels
- Cold, open, windswept nature. Perhaps an overall roof would make that better?
- Lack of inside waiting rooms and those that exist have the interior design of a prison and are draughty and cold.

I’d stick an overall mezzanine floor on it at the level of the current overbridge and an overall roof. This would solve all of the above problems and allow a better retail offering and waiting area.

This would be expensive though and upset the traditionalists.
 

zwk500

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Could Nunnery Junction be re-modelled so that a new spur leaves the Worksop line to the NW of the Midland line and goes into the north side of the station, reducing conflicts?
No, you'd need a new tunnel but there's the A57 and the listed flats right on top of it.
Could Victoria be reopened and serve the Worksop line and other trains terminating at Sheffield?
Victoria is not very well sited for the city centre, nor is it connected to the tram network so you'd be making interchange much, much harder by reopening Victoria
Also, whilst the approach with its fountains is very pleasant, would this space be better used by building extra platforms with a new entrance at road level?
The curve to get any platforms that far out is going to be seriously sharp, and you'd have to either cut off the A61 or cut Platform 1 down to be much shorter.
What are people's thoughts?
Did you actually look at a road map before posting this?

Seriously, The problem with Sheffield is it still has a loco-hauled layout. What it really needs is a Reading-level rebuild. Personally, what I'd do is rebuild it so that you have a north and a south bay cut into a shorter through platform on the eastern-most side (side platform butting onto the retaining wall), then 3 islands of 250m through platforms, and then some shorter bays nearest the station building. You're looking at approximately 6.5m per pair of tracks, with 2.5m for each unobstructed platform side, allowing 5m in the centre for Buildings/Lifts etc, gives 10m wide platform islands. The width from wall to Station building at Sheffield is about 88m, so as a rough sense of scale, An Island platform + pair of tracks = 16.5m, round it to 17m for a bit of margin, 88/17 = 5.17, so you could fit my suggested 3 islands with 2 side platforms that incorporate bays into them. The distance between the tunnels at the north end and the bridge at the south end that constrain the location of the tracks is 580m, so you have some room to fit the layout in while retaining 250m platforms in the centre (250 being long enough to take the longest EMR train + signal standback for reversals).
However, to do this you'd need to sweep away all that currently is at Sheffield, taking out each island at a time so you'd come up against the heritage people for the station architecture, the TOCs for the disruption and the logistics planners for getting the materials on site. That's before you've managed to convince the man/woman from the Treasury to stop laughing for long enough to sign a check...
 

Philip

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No, you'd need a new tunnel but there's the A57 and the listed flats right on top of it.

Victoria is not very well sited for the city centre, nor is it connected to the tram network so you'd be making interchange much, much harder by reopening Victoria

The curve to get any platforms that far out is going to be seriously sharp, and you'd have to either cut off the A61 or cut Platform 1 down to be much shorter.

Did you actually look at a road map before posting this?

Seriously, The problem with Sheffield is it still has a loco-hauled layout. What it really needs is a Reading-level rebuild. Personally, what I'd do is rebuild it so that you have a north and a south bay cut into a shorter through platform on the eastern-most side (side platform butting onto the retaining wall), then 3 islands of 250m through platforms, and then some shorter bays nearest the station building. You're looking at approximately 6.5m per pair of tracks, with 2.5m for each unobstructed platform side, allowing 5m in the centre for Buildings/Lifts etc, gives 10m wide platform islands. The width from wall to Station building at Sheffield is about 88m, so as a rough sense of scale, An Island platform + pair of tracks = 16.5m, round it to 17m for a bit of margin, 88/17 = 5.17, so you could fit my suggested 3 islands with 2 side platforms that incorporate bays into them. The distance between the tunnels at the north end and the bridge at the south end that constrain the location of the tracks is 580m, so you have some room to fit the layout in while retaining 250m platforms in the centre (250 being long enough to take the longest EMR train + signal standback for reversals).
However, to do this you'd need to sweep away all that currently is at Sheffield, taking out each island at a time so you'd come up against the heritage people for the station architecture, the TOCs for the disruption and the logistics planners for getting the materials on site. That's before you've managed to convince the man/woman from the Treasury to stop laughing for long enough to sign a check...

On the point about Victoria, the idea wouldn't really be about providing more interchange opportunities with the supertram, but rather a place to send trains from the Shireoaks line; to prevent the conflicting crossing moves these services currently have to make to get from Sheffield Midland to Nunnery Junction. I bet it would free up quite a few paths if all trains from Retford went into Victoria - and this is the route they used to take anyway.

Perhaps a new interchange station between the Shireoaks line and the tram could be opened somewhere south east of Nunnery Junction?
 

Falcon1200

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On the point about Victoria, the idea wouldn't really be about providing more interchange opportunities with the supertram,

Diverting trains to Victoria would also of course destroy interchange opportunities with the rest of the national rail network !

One major improvement I would like to see at Sheffield is not within the station itself, but the horrible main road that must be crossed to get to the city; Some form of bridge is long overdue. Or instead perhaps, or as well, free travel on Supertram between the station and the city centre stops ?
 

zwk500

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I bet it would free up quite a few paths if all trains from Retford went into Victoria - and this is the route they used to take anyway.
They moved because it didn't work. Victoria made some sense when the line through Woodhead was still open, but diverting trains away from Midland isn't very helpful now.

In an ideal world you'd 4-track the section between the station and Nunnery main line junction, but the proximity of the road and flats makes that unviable without massive expense (and it would be expensive enough without that). Adding another station is a possibility, but then why not just terminate the passenger service short?
The answer - because this is about 'filling the map back in', not about current and future travel demand.
 

Philip

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Diverting trains to Victoria would also of course destroy interchange opportunities with the rest of the national rail network !

One major improvement I would like to see at Sheffield is not within the station itself, but the horrible main road that must be crossed to get to the city; Some form of bridge is long overdue. Or instead perhaps, or as well, free travel on Supertram between the station and the city centre stops ?

Could the trains from the Shireoaks line terminate in platform 6B or 8b then to reduce crossing moves, or even a new bay platform put in inbetween 6B and 8B? Or perhaps join up the Hope Valley stopper with the Lincoln service to make it a through service?
 

zwk500

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Could the trains from the Shireoaks line terminate in platform 6B or 8b then to reduce crossing moves, or even a new bay platform put in inbetween 6B and 8B?
It would require signalling changes or a cross-platform shunt.
Or perhaps join up the Hope Valley stopper with the Lincoln service to make it a through service?
This would be lunacy.
 

Bryson

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I see someone propose re-opening Sheffield Victoria almost every week, but as said above it is poorly located for the modern city and has no prospect of interchange with either other national rail services or tram.

The Midland is also not very well located, being built well below the level of the city centre and it has ended up outside of the ring road. It does at least have proximity to the main bus station and the Blue tram route. Sheffield in 2022 is a very different city to that that existed in 1851 (Victoria) or 1870 (Midland). The original Midland station (Wicker) was opened in 1838 and was quite close to where the Victoria was later built.

Many times I've tried to figure out how to improve Sheffield Midland but I haven't come up with anything workable. The only viable access from the south is the Sheaf Valley (once the Bradway and Totley tunnels were built) due to the steep hills. The midland sits close to where the Sheaf meets the Don which provides access from the East and North.

Expanding the Midland is difficult because on the east side it is tight against Park Hill, on the west side you have the A61, Bus station, University and Ponds Forge. The city council propose to close the A61 and rebuild it above the station on Park hill. At the same time the Tram line would be relocated to Pond street (west of the Bus station). This could provide space for the Station to expand but to my mind it would require demolition of all the existing (listed!) structures.

Even re-working the island platforms is complicated by the presence of the original 1870 station buildings which are listed and also having been built directly over the river. The Sheaf runs though vaulted culverts which support the station above. (Platform 1 and the 'New' station building were added in 1905 to the west of the 1870 station plan.)

My feeling is that any significant redevelopment will fall into the 'too difficult' box and it will be left more or less as it is.
 

edwin_m

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I've wondered if it would be possible to trim back one of the islands to make space for one of the pairs of centre tracks to be converted into another through track with a single-sided platform. A Nottingham-style buildout would be possible, but I think the need is for more long through platforms rather than bays. Either of these would need somewhere else to be found for parking the units that currently sit on the centre tracks.
 

mike57

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As someone who uses Sheffield station probably 3 or 4 times a year it doesn't seem too bad from a passenger perspective. Interchange between services is fairly easy, no long walks if time is tight. Access to the tram is easy. The issues really surround its location in relation to the city centre, but the tram solves that quickly and easily. Extending the concourse over the platforms would be good, but its not essential. I can think of many more unpleasant to use stations than Sheffield, Manchester Victoria for example.

I do realise behind the scenes the track layout and platforms are probably less than ideal, more would be good, but given the limitations of the site its unlikely to happen.

As to reopening Victoria, that seems counterproductive, and would probably kill off any routes that terminated at Victoria due to the difficulties of changing to onward services and the lack of a tram connection.

If you wanted to throw loads of money at it would a double decker station work, with some southbound terminating platforms at the current footbridge level, leaving the rest of the platforms available for through and Northbound services. Obviosly putting Northbound terminating platforms at this level would fail due to the geography to the north.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I've wondered if it would be possible to trim back one of the islands to make space for one of the pairs of centre tracks to be converted into another through track with a single-sided platform. A Nottingham-style buildout would be possible, but I think the need is for more long through platforms rather than bays. Either of these would need somewhere else to be found for parking the units that currently sit on the centre tracks.
Something along these lines is probably the best you could do, though I'm not sure such a platform could be wide enough to get authorised now. Certainly if you were building the station now, you wouldn't need quite so many non-platform tracks so would probably end up with a more efficient use of the limited space available at the cost of a new DMU depot in the Tinsley area.
 

Halifaxlad

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I’d stick an overall mezzanine floor on it at the level of the current overbridge and an overall roof. This would solve all of the above problems and allow a better retail offering and waiting area.

I like that idea although if it was gated then you will loose a useful route across the station from the East, which I can't imagine being too popular with the local population.

One major improvement I would like to see at Sheffield is not within the station itself, but the horrible main road that must be crossed to get to the city; Some form of bridge is long overdue. Or instead perhaps, or as well, free travel on Supertram between the station and the city centre stops ?

To be fair the existing crossing now with Sheaf Sq isn't that bad although I have previously wondered if the road could be lowered into a short tunnel, just long enough to bypass the crossing, although I suspect the underground rivers might prevent that.

Taking the historic/listed bits into consideration, realistically you could only rebuild the East side of the station from 5 to 8. In theory you could potentially remove the two through roads, move the entire island platform over Westwards and construct a new platform upon the Eastern side of the station although that would be a hell of a lot of work. At the end of the day I don't think Sheffield is high on the priority list for rebuilding. I always found it rather good compared to other stations like Leeds which seriously could do with a Reading like rebuild!

As for between platforms 1 & 2 if you could find somewhere else to stable stock, then I would reduce it down to three roads and build platform 1 further out and maybe add a few crossovers in like a Leeds so that could have four flexible turnbacks.

As for the trams I think they should be left where they are, although it could do with a better stop
 
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Snow1964

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Realistically has to be widened.

1) Either need to lose the current frontage (unlikely to be popular with heritage folks)
2) Build new tracks in front of existing building, so the buildings effectively sit on a very wide island platform. Not that daft as could have some bay platforms for local trains at the end
3) Resite the tram lines, build a massive retaining wall and add more tracks at the back.

I am not convinced that 250m is long enough for the platforms, yes for London trains (due to limitations at St Pancras), but probably ought to have 3 or 4 that are nearer 300m long in case HS2 or cross country trains to West Country are ever operated. It would also allow some shorter trains of about 100-130m to terminate in different ends of same platform.

It might be cheaper to try and widen southern approach back to Cross Tunnel Street (loosing the sidings) so the platforms can be lengthened and used by 2 trains as above

Google maps photo on link to explain site

 

Bryson

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To be fair the existing crossing now with Sheaf Sq isn't that bad although I have previously wondered if the road could be lowered into a short tunnel, just long enough to bypass the crossing, although I suspect the underground rivers might prevent that.

From the passenger usage point of view Sheffield is OK, a bit exposed in bad weather but otherwise easy to use. It's a shame that the original roof wasn't rebuilt after it was bomb damaged, however I think they had bigger priorities!

Sheaf street isn't difficult to cross now, there are 2 light controlled crossings and the volume of traffic on it now is much less than in the past. If the council get their way this road will be pedestrianised anyway. (Big if!). The culverted river Sheaf at the north end and Porter Brook at the south end would make tunnelling this section road rather difficult.

1) Either need to lose the current frontage (unlikely to be popular with heritage folks)
2) Build new tracks in front of existing building, so the buildings effectively sit on a very wide island platform. Not that daft as could have some bay platforms for local trains at the end
3) Resite the tram lines, build a massive retaining wall and add more tracks at the back.

I pretty much agree with this, I also can't see any other options. It would be nice if the Tram line alignment could be taken and used for 2 high-level platforms but there is no way to get heavy rail up there from the existing lines.
 

zwk500

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1) Either need to lose the current frontage (unlikely to be popular with heritage folks)
possible
2) Build new tracks in front of existing building, so the buildings effectively sit on a very wide island platform. Not that daft as could have some bay platforms for local trains at the end
Very daft because of the ring road.
3) Resite the tram lines, build a massive retaining wall and add more tracks at the back.
It might be technically feasible, but it will cost a bomb. I think the flats on top of the hill have some protections as well, so nay works that threatens their foundations will not be permitted.
I am not convinced that 250m is long enough for the platforms, yes for London trains (due to limitations at St Pancras), but probably ought to have 3 or 4 that are nearer 300m long in case HS2 or cross country trains to West Country are ever operated. It would also allow some shorter trains of about 100-130m to terminate in different ends of same platform.
HS2 trains are planned to be 200m or 400m, so 300m is pointless. XC running 10-Car 23m carriage trains would be 230m, perfectly on the platform.
It might be cheaper to try and widen southern approach back to Cross Tunnel Street (loosing the sidings) so the platforms can be lengthened and used by 2 trains as above
Good luck losing the stabling facility!
 

Bryson

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Very daft because of the ring road.
The ring road that the city council want to close and relocate.
It might be technically feasible, but it will cost a bomb. I think the flats on top of the hill have some protections as well, so nay works that threatens their foundations will not be permitted.
The closest point of the flats is about 110 meters behind the existing retaining wall on the other side of South Street Park so some land grab here is possible, but as you say it would cost a bomb and need some serious excavation.

I believe that this was actually HS2's plan for Sheffield, i.e. Building P9 and P10 by cutting away the hillside. I don't think the planning got very far though.
 

zwk500

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The ring road that the city council want to close and relocate.
Might present an opportunity, but wanting to do something and having a viable plan to do it are quite different things.
The closest point of the flats is about 110 meters behind the existing retaining wall on the other side of South Street Park so some land grab here is possible, but as you say it would cost a bomb and need some serious excavation.

I believe that this was actually HS2's plan for Sheffield, i.e. Building P9 and P10 by cutting away the hillside. I don't think the planning got very far though.
The issue is HS2 could basically build whatever it needed, because if it was going to be built the price tag was already enormous. It also had far greater economic benefits so could justify major engineering solutions. Rebuilding Sheffield for conventional or classic-compatible HS2 services won't have the same economic benefits to the region, so the costs will need to be controlled accordingly.

I think it's feasible to rebuild the two islands into 3 if you remove the middle roads, maybe it might be better to rebuild to 2 islands but with 2 bays at each end and keep a middle road in each direction. But expanding the station's footprint I just don't see as viable.
 

Bryson

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Might present an opportunity, but wanting to do something and having a viable plan to do it are quite different things.
I agree with this sentiment - I don't think it will happen either, the plan is there but not been talked about.
The issue is HS2 could basically build whatever it needed, because if it was going to be built the price tag was already enormous. It also had far greater economic benefits so could justify major engineering solutions. Rebuilding Sheffield for conventional or classic-compatible HS2 services won't have the same economic benefits to the region, so the costs will need to be controlled accordingly.

I was sceptical that even HS2 would be able to deliver this, now the eastern branch is cancelled this will never happen.
 

edwin_m

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1) Either need to lose the current frontage (unlikely to be popular with heritage folks)
2) Build new tracks in front of existing building, so the buildings effectively sit on a very wide island platform. Not that daft as could have some bay platforms for local trains at the end

Off the wall idea coming up...

The front part of the station used to be a cab road until it was incorporated into the main building 20 years or so back. I wonder if there would be any scope to put one or two platforms in there? It would be quite difficult to tie in north and south, but not as bad as putting tracks even further west.
 

2192

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I would welcome "Next tram to .......... will be in .............minutes" indicators visible to passengers on the platforms and footbridge, so I then know whether I need to walk fast -- and I think this is the cheapest suggestion yet on this thread!
 

tbtc

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I don’t think there’s much chance of expanding the overall railway “envelope”, given the geography (even if you close/divert the ring road, there’s the Sheaf/ Porter Brook/ hillside/ bottlenecks/ can’t build a double deck station!). If we are able to rip it up and start again then I’d be a lot more ambitious, but this is what I’d consider in increasing levels of “ambition”:

0. Forget about Victoria. It’s over. Let go. Weirdly, the same people so focussed on building a terribly located station far away from anything are often also those wanting to spend billions on better connecting stations like Pic and Vic in Manchester, because having services split between two city centre stations is seen as A Bad Thing. Same with people moaning about the mammoth trek between Curzon Street and New Street once HS2 is running, yet yearning for a Britain where cities like Nottingham and Leicester saw their London-bound trains spread between two stations I guess!

1. Bi-directional signals on all through lines! There are five through lines but (based on the pre-Covid timescales) from my memory, of the twenty departures per hour , two thirds either started at Sheffield or reversed there, so it’s very important that the through platforms can be utilised by such services to, or it puts too much of a strain on the bay platforms. My understanding was that the two easternmost through platforms aren’t signaled in both directions though? Happy to be corrected!

2. Sort out the track layout in the north throat, especially the single track that feeds the two busy bay platforms (three and four), and the speeds into/ out of them! sometimes we get services stacked on those platforms (e.g. the Adwick DMU has to wait for the Castleford DMU to get out of the platform two minutes earlier), the slow approach speeds and single track can snarl things up if something goes slightly wrong

3. Run terminating services from the north through to new terminal platforms somewhere south of the city (could be bays at an expanded Dore, could just be a bi-directional loop for ECS moves, but it would be good to have the option to keep DMUs out of the way)

4. Once you’ve sorted out any remodelling, electrification as far as Meadowhall, for bi-mode trains to get a faster acceleration from the bottom of the valley up to Attercliffe (where the line is much higher than surrounding land). I’m not demanding full electrification of all local lines, but many a long distance/ high speed service has been delayed by a 75mph DMU struggling in the throat

5. I don’t think we can make any/many changes to the buildings but it’s a shame that the re development didn’t extend the footbridge out over the A61 so that passengers would have had a “level” walk from part way down Howard Street, across Paternoster Row and Sheaf Street, entering the station at footbridge level

6. Ideally, build a third “island” by removing middle roads/ having better shapes and sized platforms on the other two “islands”. So much space wasted with the current set up. Handy to dump DMUs in the middle roads but we’d be much better having a depot/yard for them elsewhere like other cities have! If you’re building a real depot nearby then maybe you could squeeze another short platform or two - 1c and 1d for local trains, rather than the current little facilities at the south end

( @2192 makes an excellent point about trams, that’s the kind of minor modification that would improve passenger experiences, rather than potentially standing at the exposed tram stop for best part of ten minutes, breathing in the filthy diesel fumes from the 222 in platform eight!)
 

ohgoditsjames

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Needs 4 tracking on both the North and South approaches, but the Northern throat will probably never be changed because of how expensive it will be to change the cutting
 

D365

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It is the only station in the city centre; Manchester has 3 major ones and a couple of extra smaller stations; Birmingham has 3; Leeds has 1 but this is much bigger than Sheffield Station.
To be fair - it’s the only Sheffield station which has ever been ’near’ to the centre. The tram is the least worst option for hopping people into the centre*, although the purple line could do with being more frequent.

*to this end, the Sheffield station masterplan would have been fantastic, but I don’t see the money ever appearing.
 

2192

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Excellent suggestions from @tbtc (post #25). However (suggestion 3) if you ran terminating local trains from the north through to sidings at the south (I think Dore is too far away), would that not mean that passengers for these trains would be standing on the platforms (with possible overcrowding) waiting for their train to appear, wheras they can at present sit in their train stationary in a bay platform?
 

eastwestdivide

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Bi-directional signals on all through lines!
Maybe also out as far as Nunnery ML Junction, with crossovers just beyond there to allow flexibility of routing. That would allow simultaneous parallel running of a Darnall-route and a Meadowhall-route service in times of minor disruption. Or even an incoming Meadowhall-route service via the down line and an outgoing Darnall-route service via the up line.
 

D365

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Excellent suggestions from @tbtc (post #25). However (suggestion 3) if you ran terminating local trains from the north through to sidings at the south (I think Dore is too far away), would that not mean that passengers for these trains would be standing on the platforms (with possible overcrowding) waiting for their train to appear, wheras they can at present sit in their train stationary in a bay platform?
Platforms 3/4 are large enough that waiting passengers shouldn’t be a concern. It’s Platform 6 that gets crowded when waiting for a CrossCountry or TransPennine.
 
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