How do trains access wifi signals?

[Hellfire]

While sitting on a Pendolino last week I was wondering how the train accesses the signal to provide the on-board wifi. I then wondered how much it actually costs Virgin to provide a wifi service.

I must admit I don't tend to use it on the grounds that it is expensive in Standard class and often the signal is no better than 3G. However there seem to be long stretches of the WCML south of Stafford where the 3G disappears.

I appreciate providing wifi in a metal tube travelling at 125 mph is going to be more problematic than getting it at home but are there any other technical barriers which mitigate against improving the service?

 

[sutty]

While sitting on a Pendolino last week I was wondering how the train accesses the signal to provide the on-board wifi. I then wondered how much it actually costs Virgin to provide a wifi service.

I must admit I don't tend to use it on the grounds that it is expensive in Standard class and often the signal is no better than 3G. However there seem to be long stretches of the WCML south of Stafford where the 3G disappears.

I appreciate providing wifi in a metal tube travelling at 125 mph is going to be more problematic than getting it at home but are there any other technical barriers which mitigate against improving the service?

It'll be a similar technology to the hotspots you can buy from mobile networks. Some quick googling reveals the following:

http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Jan2005/8968.htm

Interesting stuff

 

[island]

In short, it uses 3G.

 

[Goatboy]

It's also reasonably cheap to provide. I wonder how many people in Standard actually use it? I would have thought most are put off by the price. I used it in First a few months ago and thoght it was useful to have as a freebie but I've been really quite annoyed with the service if I'd have paid £10 or whatever to access it.

 

[RPM]

In short, it uses 3G.

Which is why it tends to be patchy. No 3G signal, no Wifi.

 

[starrymarkb]

East Coast uses Satellite and 3G - IIRC 3G provides the upload and download is from the Satellite. The antennae are on the roof of the DVT or Buffet...

 

[island]

It's also reasonably cheap to provide. I wonder how many people in Standard actually use it? I would have thought most are put off by the price. I used it in First a few months ago and thoght it was useful to have as a freebie but I've been really quite annoyed with the service if I'd have paid £10 or whatever to access it.

With East Coast you can get a wifi pass using your reward points.

 

[Mojo]

On Chiltern Mainline it's free. I found the service to be pretty good when I was a regular customer of theirs between Birmingham and London last year. Another advantage over Virgin, in addition to more polite staff and being able to see out of the window...

 

[ryan125hst]

East Coast uses Satellite and 3G - IIRC 3G provides the upload and download is from the Satellite. The antennae are on the roof of the DVT or Buffet...

I don't think they have Wifi domes anymore. I've just had a look at a few videos and I can't see the domes on the DVT's or the MK3 buffets.

Can anyone confirm whether they have removed the domes and now use 3G only?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

ScotRail are providing free WiFi on their Glasgow to Edinburgh trains according to their intrain mag. Will be rather more challenging on the Highland services I bet.

 

[Clip]

I got pretty annoyed with virgin and their wifi the other day. Paid for it and it didn't work most of the time. Yes I understand if lots of people were using it but the carriage was half empty so it was no excuse..

They never even replied to my complaint too.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

There is a WiFi coverage map for ScotRail available when you are connected on a train but I can't seem to find it on their main website.

As for how it's done, the Press Release http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/wi-fi-be-rolled-out-scotrail-trains had this to say:

Fitting the Wi-fi
An Ethernet ‘backbone’ will be fitted to each class 170 train, using inter-vehicle ‘jumpers’ to allow passengers to access the internet from all three carriages. The router is mounted in the roof space in the middle vehicle close to the external antennae.

How it works
The system connects to the major phone networks simultaneously and splits the available bandwidth across the networks at any given moment. The quality of the mobile signal strength along the rail network varies depending on a number of factors. While wi-fi will undoubtedly improve internet access, there will still be areas where limited or no access is available.

EDIT: Remembered I'd taken a screen shot of WiFi coverage map on my phone on the way up to Aberdeen:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think they have Wifi domes anymore. I've just had a look at a few videos and I can't see the domes on the DVT's or the MK3 buffets.

Can anyone confirm whether they have removed the domes and now use 3G only?

82231 (the 'Skyfall' one) has a dome, whether there is anything in it is another question entirely.

 

[GM078]

I believe there are generally multiple sims, for various network providers, installed to allow for a better selection of networks depending on local signal quality. Of course on some routes the terrain just isn't suited to WiFi (eg. valleys).

To an extent I'm surprised that some rail operators are still charging for such a service.

 

[D1009]

I believe we are miles ahead of our European neighbours in this regard, even in Germany wifi is only available on ICEs, only on a small number of routes, and is charged for.

 

[fireftrm]

The domes are there on all the DVTs, but are they really satellite internet receivers? If so why is the HST wifi as good as the 225s? HSTs have no 'domes' Actually I should have said 'as poor' not as good. If the download is satellite (I have heard that too), which should be very fast, then it must go through a massive filtering to get it to be so slow in the carriage.

We aren't that far ahead, wifi is only available on mainline routes, try TPE, Northern or any SE services. Even on EC I often egt a much better net using my O2 dongle.

 

[musicking1306]

I do believe that WIFI on FGW 180's is free between Paddington and The Cotswold's. You just have to make an account.

 

[rebmcr]

They don't normally use the general 3G networks, they use dedicated 3G-style microwave-band links spaced along the track, pointing up and down just like GSM-R (but separate from it).

The backhaul from those base stations to The Internet is the main bottleneck — some of them are just a pair of ISDN B-channels (giving a total bandwidth of 128kbps) to serve between one and four trains worth of users, depending on where the trains are on the track.

Obviously, more than a dozen or so devices trying to load contemporary web pages on that sort of connection makes it grind to a halt. Even a satellite downlink will only provide around 2Mbps, and base stations with 24Mbps of backhaul are still woefully under-specced for the number of passengers.

I always use my mobile's data connection for my laptop — it drops the link for around 20%-40% of the time and falls back to GPRS for some of the rest, but the connection is still better than the onboard WiFi.

 

[CC 72100]

On Chiltern Mainline it's free. I found the service to be pretty good when I was a regular customer of theirs between Birmingham and London last year. Another advantage over Virgin, in addition to more polite staff and being able to see out of the window...

Can echo that, Chiltern's wifi was very quick when I've used it, and they haven't bombarded me with emails from knowing my email address! You people in Birmingham are lucky with having 3 TOCs to choose from when travelling to London!

 

[wipeout]

I believe we are miles ahead of our European neighbours in this regard, even in Germany wifi is only available on ICEs, only on a small number of routes, and is charged for.

Given the cost of travel in the UK against Germany maybe it's time that we get something for free which they don't?

 

[radamfi]

I believe we are miles ahead of our European neighbours in this regard, even in Germany wifi is only available on ICEs, only on a small number of routes, and is charged for.

Dutch trains are rolling out wi-fi across the Intercity network and is free until sometime this year. Thalys high speed trains (Amsterdam/Cologne - Brussels - Paris) have wi-fi, free in 'Comfort 1'.

I do think wi-fi is a waste of time these days as the vast majority of people who want to use it will have their own smartphones or dongles and most of those people don't use up their data allowance so will be happy to use their own data instead of using the slow wi-fi. Maybe wi-fi was a good idea before mass smartphone ownership. I can see it being useful for tourists as most of them won't have a UK mobile service.

 

[Hellfire]

I think that calling it wifi is a bit misleading. Most people seeing the term "wifi" will assume it is broadband. They may technically be wrong in that assumption but if Virgin said that what they were providing was 3G it would be much more honest.

I find that unless I turn off the wifi setting on my ipad when I'm on a Pendolino the Virgin offering seems to interfere with my own 3G.

Given what they charge for it I would expect something quicker.

 

[ryan125hst]

The domes are there on all the DVTs, but are they really satellite internet receivers? If so why is the HST wifi as good as the 225s? HSTs have no 'domes' Actually I should have said 'as poor' not as good. If the download is satellite (I have heard that too), which should be very fast, then it must go through a massive filtering to get it to be so slow in the carriage.

The HST's used to have satellite domes- it was at the buffet end of the TFRB coach. This photograph by shed83a shows a carriage with a dome in GNER days (running along the Dawlish Sea Wall, so presumably on hire to Virgin Cross Country)
This photograph shows the dome in on an East Coast liveried HST.

However, by looking at this video, uploaded by rachaelmatt, it appears that they no longer have domes (at least the HST at the 8 minute mark doesn't). This photograph confims this.

Can anyone who works for East Coast confirm what is happening with regards to the satellite domes?

 

[FGW_DID]

I do believe that WIFI on FGW 180's is free between Paddington and The Cotswold's. You just have to make an account.

That is correct, it is free, all you need is to register with your e-mail and a password of your choice and thats it.

Not had any problems with it so far apart from on 180104, which never seems to get a signal, i have passed it on to FGW.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

When 4G is more widespread then on train WiFi will be massively better. Not only is 4G faster, it uses a lower frequency radio wave which means the signal will travel further from a tower (meaning fewer black spots) and they penetrate buildings and structures better.

 

[RPM]

If you follow Chiltern's twitter feed you will notice they get daily complaints about the wifi, despite the fact it is free. My own experience of it is pretty positive but I think perhaps some pax expect too much. Train-bourne wifi is less reliable than what you would expect at home, but it still isn't bad. Some effort perhaps needs to be made by TOCs into managing passengers' expectations?
It is also worth noting that there is a great appetite for free wifi and Chiltern are frequently asked when it will be available on 165 and 172 operated services (currently it is only available on mk 3s and 168s).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I often wonder how many of those complaints are down to user error? Just from spending time on the services in question I see some people insistent that the WiFi is knackered in a coach despite the fact that the guy sitting opposite them has managed to connect to it.

 

[paulypaul]

I've tried to use EMT and EC wifi and have failed dismally to get online using either service, so I just use my normal 3G signal on my phone and if that goes down, well it goes down.

 

[island]

I believe we are miles ahead of our European neighbours in this regard, even in Germany wifi is only available on ICEs, only on a small number of routes, and is charged for.

Iarnród Éireann has free wifi on all domestic intercity services and is in the process of fitting out commuter services.

 

[D1009]

Iarnród Éireann has free wifi on all domestic intercity services and is in the process of fitting out commuter services.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that, without being too political, perhaps my post should have been I believe the British Isles are miles ahead of our European neighbours etc.