How have the minor stations between Morpeth and Berwick avoided closure?

[InkyScrolls]

With the exception of Alnmouth, the stations between Morpeth and Berwick receive little more than a parliamentary service, with either one or two trains in each direction per day, and none on Sundays. Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill have a total usership of just 5,400 for 2021/22, and timetabling additional stopping services around the ECML's frequent expresses is virtually impossible. How have these stations survived so long, and how long do they realistically have left?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the exception of Alnmouth, the stations between Morpeth and Berwick receive little more than a parliamentary service, with either one or two trains in each direction per day, and none on Sundays. Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill have a total usership of just 5,400 for 2021/22, and timetabling additional stopping services around the ECML's frequent expresses is virtually impossible. How have these stations survived so long, and how long do they realistically have left?

The latter question is hard to answer - some may suspect May 2023!

But it's not a classic Parliamentary (deliberately useless or marginal) service - it's a deliberately useful commuter service to Newcastle - supposedly according to another thread those two trains are the busiest all day at Morpeth, for instance. It's perhaps comparable to some US commuter railways that only operate for commuters and don't make any attempt on leisure travel. You would never justify that if it was its own branch line, but as the line exists and the DMU is probably in marginal time the cost of it may be quite low.

 

[hexagon789]

There were about 3 or 4 Edinburgh-Newcastle stoppers until 1990/1 as I recall, one each way run by an HST set. The ECML electrification saw these services culled to start/end at Berwick and the subsequent increase in InterCity services with electrification coupled with a shortage of DMUs produced the cull to the current 2 trains.

 

[geordieblue]

Some of them do genuinely have potential as well - Acklington as 'Amble Parkway', Chathill as 'Seahouses Parkway' - and Pegswood and Widdrington have decent catchments too. It's never going to be the Leeds NW lines, say, but transport in Northumberland is pretty poor and the trains goes to Newcastle, where the demand is. It's a lot better than plenty of potential reopenings!

 

[Spartacus]

Unlike most of the ECML there's until recently never been any real pressure from the frequency of express services to do away with the few stoppers that there are, which must have helped.

 

[zwk500]

Given the costs of the closure process and the fact that the lines are going to remain open anyway, they'll probably remain with the token service for a while. It would also be difficult politically to withdraw the services.

 

[nw1]

You do wonder whether it might be an idea to reduce the number of fast services on this route to say one LNER and one XC an hour, and maybe flight them on an xx00, xx20 (or equivalent) pattern out of Newcastle (so with a 40 min gap in which the stopper could run), to allow a more usable and regular stopping service from Newcastle-Berwick which might benefit this part of the world. Does there actually need to be more than 2tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh? Do TPE need to go north of Newcastle at all - why can't through passengers change at Newcastle?

Is there anywhere between Newcastle and Berwick where stoppers can be looped?

I do realise this boils down to the "what are the railways primarily for: a profit generator or a service to the community?" argument again.

 

[zwk500]

You do wonder whether it might be an idea to reduce the number of fast services on this route to say one LNER and one XC an hour, and maybe flight them on an xx00, xx20 (or equivalent) pattern out of Newcastle (so with a 40 min gap in which the stopper could run), to allow a more usable and regular stopping service from Newcastle-Berwick which might benefit this part of the world. Does there actually need to be more than 2tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh? Do TPE need to go north of Newcastle at all - why can't through passengers change at Newcastle?

Politics says you need good London-Edinburgh connections

Is there anywhere on this section where stoppers can be looped?

Yes, many, many long electrified loops. A reasonable idea would be to look at rebuilding 2 stations to 4-track so they could be overtaken without needing to spend 10 minutes or so in a loop.

I do realise this boils down to the "what are the railways for: a profit generator or a service to the community?" argument again.

Yes, but it also raises the 'which community benefits are most valuable' argument. Newcastle and Edinburgh will both benefit from stronger connections to each other more than any of the smaller stations will benefit from an all-day service to Newcastle.

 

[nw1]

Politics says you need good London-Edinburgh connections

Perhaps but 1tph is surely good enough for that distance. Liverpool, much closer to London, manages with 1tph. And Glasgow, Scotland's largest city, also manages with 1tph. And should politics trump need?

Yes, many, many long electrified loops. A reasonable idea would be to look at rebuilding 2 stations to 4-track so they could be overtaken without needing to spend 10 minutes or so in a loop.

That's good to know, maybe something could be done here.

Yes, but it also raises the 'which community benefits are most valuable' argument. Newcastle and Edinburgh will both benefit from stronger connections to each other more than any of the smaller stations will benefit from an all-day service to Newcastle.

Maybe, but surely 2tph is good enough for two cities 100-odd miles from each other. For instance Southampton and Portsmouth, a mere 20 miles apart, have just one fast service per hour.

I guess if those intermediate stations have an equivalent fast bus/coach service to Newcastle, then there isn't such a strong argument for a regular service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps but 1tph is surely good enough for that distance. Liverpool, much closer to London, manages with 1tph. And should politics trump need?

Have you seen how rural those locations are? Demand would be minimal if there was a train every 5 minutes.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps but 1tph is surely good enough for that distance. Liverpool, much closer to London, manages with 1tph. And Glasgow, Scotland's largest city, also manages with 1tph. And should politics trump need?

Liverpool had spent a long time getting 2tph, Glasgow has flights to London as well. I'd argue the need for Newcastle-Edinburgh is stronger than Newcastle-Chathill.

That's good to know, maybe something could be done here.

Potentially, although slow the service down too much and people will just drive down the A1.

Maybe, but surely 2tph is good enough for two cities 100-odd miles from each other. For instance Southampton and Portsmouth, a mere 20 miles apart, have just one fast service per hour.

They have many more semi-fast services as the two form effectively a conjoined conurbation. The communities between the two cities have lots of travel both ways.

I guess if those intermediate stations have an equivalent fast bus/coach service to Newcastle, then there isn't such a strong argument for a regular service.

Indeed.

 

[nw1]

Have you seen how rural those locations are? Demand would be minimal if there was a train every 5 minutes.

Pegswood and Widdrington look like reasonable-sized villages, Acklington has some places near it (as others have noted), and the area, while rural, doesn't seem extremely so - though admittedly Chathill seems to have less justifying it being way out in the sticks, and I guess could probably close. Could you have a Newcastle-Alnmouth stopper?

 

[zwk500]

Pegswood and Widdrington look like reasonable-sized villages, Acklington has some places near it (as others have noted), and the area, while rural, doesn't seem extremely so - though admittedly Chathill seems to have less justifying it being way out in the sticks, and I guess could probably close. Could you have a Newcastle-Alnmouth stopper?

You could, but the value of closing Chathill station is marginal compared to the costs of the process, and operating from Alnmouth to Chathill is marginal costs again. In an ideal world you'd build a Morpeth cut-off and extend the stopper to Berwick, probably with 4-tracking around Acklington, but that's never going to justify the costs until HS2 trains start getting caught up in congestion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pegswood and Widdrington look like reasonable-sized villages, Acklington has some places near it (as others have noted), and the area, while rural, doesn't seem extremely so - though admittedly Chathill seems to have less justifying it. Could you have a Newcastle-Alnmouth stopper?

I actually know someone who comes from Widdrington Station (the name of the village, a bit like some being called X Junction). You could maybe justify a couple more round trips if there was a unit/crew available and they could be pathed, so you might pick up a bit of leisure traffic, but it's never going to justify an hourly service.

Conveniently for comparison it's about the same size as a Milton Keynes grid square, and from lots of past experiments one grid square alone can't stand a bus service, and that's with somewhere nearby to go to on a daily basis!

This sort of line normally sustains itself by there being bigger places at each end and through traffic (e.g. the basket case that is the Bentham Line would be even more of one without Lancaster at one end and Leeds at t'other). This one hasn't.

 

[geoffk]

I used the afternoon peak service twice a few years ago while I was a Northern station adopter. On both occasions I waited at Chathill for the return train and had a hotel booked at Morpeth. I recall only a handful of passengers beyond Morpeth and I think we were looped at Alnmouth (Wooden Gate) for a fast train to overtake. Logically the local service from Newcastle should have run to Alnwick - maybe a two-hourly service would have been justified, helped by an additional station at Killingworth, if paths permitted. This would have left just Chathill out on a limb but it could have been served at peak times by a XC service. That option went of course with the building of the A1 Alnwick bypass, which severed the branch. In the current circumstances I guess the peak service (which now runs to/from Carlisle, I see) will just soldier on.

 

[mangyiscute]

Perhaps but 1tph is surely good enough for that distance.

I don't know how often you've been on a London to Edinburgh train, but 2tph is definitely necessary and the fact that Lumo has joined in this market and been very successful shows that there is perhaps demand for 3tph if anything. It is a classic example of if you run the trains, the people will come - perhaps 1tph would be fine after a while, but that would be because you lose loads of passengers

 

[Killingworth]

With the exception of Alnmouth, the stations between Morpeth and Berwick receive little more than a parliamentary service, with either one or two trains in each direction per day, and none on Sundays. Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill have a total usership of just 5,400 for 2021/22, and timetabling additional stopping services around the ECML's frequent expresses is virtually impossible. How have these stations survived so long, and how long do they realistically have left?

It's a good question. I've recently visited them all and made comments in other threads. Chathill is effectively the terminus (they reverse in the loops at Little Mill) for trains that only pick up significant numbers at Alnmouth and Morpeth. I suspect quite a few booking for the smaller stations are enthusiasts collecting station visits!

Pegswood and Widdrington look like reasonable-sized villages, Acklington has some places near it (as others have noted), and the area, while rural, doesn't seem extremely so - though admittedly Chathill seems to have less justifying it being way out in the sticks, and I guess could probably close. Could you have a Newcastle-Alnmouth stopper?

Ther hourly X18 bus from Newcastle to Alnwick via Morpeth serves Pegswood , Widdrington, Acklington and goes into Alnmouth village. Station parking is very poor to at the small stations. Yes, the bus is slower than the train but stops at a lot more places, and there were queues at the stops when I last visited the area. (Come to think of it, they may have been early morning shoppers for Morpeth waiting for the senior citizens first free bus.)

 

[swt_passenger]

You do wonder whether it might be an idea to reduce the number of fast services on this route to say one LNER and one XC an hour, and maybe flight them on an xx00, xx20 (or equivalent) pattern out of Newcastle (so with a 40 min gap in which the stopper could run), to allow a more usable and regular stopping service from Newcastle-Berwick which might benefit this part of the world. Does there actually need to be more than 2tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh? Do TPE need to go north of Newcastle at all - why can't through passengers change at Newcastle?

Is there anywhere between Newcastle and Berwick where stoppers can be looped?

I do realise this boils down to the "what are the railways primarily for: a profit generator or a service to the community?" argument again.

One of the Chathill stoppers, the morning up train, already has to be looped causing a significant delay just south of Alnmouth in the current timings. As already said there are numerous usable loops between Newcastle and Berwick, but I see no possibility whatsoever of reducing the LNER through services to make room for stoppers. I think there should probably have been a reversing siding provided at Alnmouth when the Alnwick branch closed, then Chathill would have probably closed many years ago.

 

[nw1]

I don't know how often you've been on a London to Edinburgh train, but 2tph is definitely necessary and the fact that Lumo has joined in this market and been very successful shows that there is perhaps demand for 3tph if anything. It is a classic example of if you run the trains, the people will come - perhaps 1tph would be fine after a while, but that would be because you lose loads of passengers

Admittedly only twice all the way, and both in 1993 (so early 91+Mk4 days). Trains while well used were not overcrowded. The pattern at that time, IIRC, was hourly from London with additionals at peak times, but 2tph London-Newcastle.

My comments were more based on the fact that London-Edinburgh is 400 miles and I'm surprised that anything more than an hourly through service (with additional opportunities available via changing) would be needed for a journey that distance, aside from the usual peak times of the business peaks, Sunday evenings, summer Saturdays etc.

 

[zwk500]

Admittedly only twice all the way, and both in 1993 (so early 91+Mk4 days). Trains while well used were not overcrowded. The pattern at that time, IIRC, was hourly from London with additionals at peak times, but 2tph London-Newcastle.

My comments were more based on the fact that London-Edinburgh is 400 miles and I'm surprised that anything more than an hourly through service (with additional opportunities available via changing) would be needed for a journey that distance, aside from the usual peak times of the business peaks, Sunday evenings, summer Saturdays etc.

I've only got the train to Edinburgh once, but I've got the train to Newcastle several times and there are still plenty of people on the train heading north when I alight. London and Edinburgh are the two respective capitals of the two biggest Nations in the Union. They are also massive tourist draws in their own right, and are the gateways to Europe and Highland Scotland respectively. It is not surprising that there is a vast amount of business and leisure travel between the two. The journey time (much more important than the distance) is 4 hours end to end, so it is very competitive against flying (1h30 transit to Airport + check-in/security faff, 1h15 flight, 1h exit + transfer).

Arguably LNER could go down to 1tph, but Lumo have proved there are people looking for good deals who want to travel, and if they are selling seats why withdraw a 9/10-car 801 in favour a 2/4-car stopper?

 

[tbtc]

I don't know how often you've been on a London to Edinburgh train, but 2tph is definitely necessary and the fact that Lumo has joined in this market and been very successful shows that there is perhaps demand for 3tph if anything

Exactly what I was going to say - it’s notable that when there’s no freight getting in the way (on a Sunday) LNER run three services per hour, on top of the pre-Covid hourly Voyager service, the new Lumo trains, whatever frequency TPE settle down at.., and these trains carry hundreds of passengers each… The idea of cutting them back to just trains per hour is a complete non- starter

If people are insistent on focusing more resources on Northumberland then my two priorities (in no particular order) would be:

* - electrify that piddling bit at Morpeth that BR didn’t plus the line out to the Metro Centre and run a half hourly EMU from Morpeth to the Metro Centre - whilst people on here focus on pretty rural villages and hamlets, Cramlington has tens of thousands of residents, ideal commuter distance into Newcastle, but just one Sprinter an hour - it’s ripe for a better service, and a 100mph EMU will keep out of the way better than a 75mph DMU (use the freed up Sprinter to beef up Blyth services)

* - introduce a more stable stopping pattern at the three main stations of Morpeth/ Alnmouth/ Berwick. The current timetable is great for journeys that involve Newcastle or Edinburgh but these towns lack a decent service between them - it doesn’t have to be hourly but a train linking two of them every couple of hours would be a big improvement

But stop fixating on tiny places like Chathill - if the plan is to cut long distance trains to accommodate stoppers then you’ll probably inconvenience a hundred existing people for every one new passenger from these little villages. I’d say I was surprised that we’re even having this conversation, but…

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps but 1tph is surely good enough for that distance. Liverpool, much closer to London, manages with 1tph. And Glasgow, Scotland's largest city, also manages with 1tph. And should politics trump need?

Not just politics, demand on London-Edinburgh easily sustains 2 even 3 trains per hour. The 2tph LNER plus LUMO services are all well-used and busy.

The Sunday 3tph LNER service is not a quirk, but a necessity even now.

I genuinely think a well-priced and accelerated 15 min frequency London-Edinburgh service has potential in the future.

London-Edinburgh has long been a high demand route compared to Glasgow; Liverpool might be strangled by having only had the hourly service but until the second service is finally introduced and we get a chance to see how well-used it is, that's not as easy to judge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London-Edinburgh has long been a high demand route compared to Glasgow; Liverpool might be strangled by having only had the hourly service but until the second service is finally introduced and we get a chance to see how well-used it is, that's not as easy to judge.

Liverpool is a bit unique among the Avanti destinations in that it has almost no hinterland that would connect into the service at Lime St. It basically only serves Liverpool and its immediate commuter hinterland - the shape of the coastline sort of leaves it on its own. Totally unlike Edinburgh which offers connections to all of Scotland.

 

[zwk500]

London-Edinburgh has long been a high demand route compared to Glasgow; Liverpool might be strangled by having only had the hourly service but until the second service is finally introduced and we get a chance to see how well-used it is, that's not as easy to judge.

I think given how well loaded the Liverpools usually were that a 2nd tph was very justified. IIRC Virgin were quite happy to support it, and for all their faults they knew their market pretty well.

 

[Starmill]

Liverpool is a bit unique among the Avanti destinations in that it has almost no hinterland that would connect into the service at Lime St. It basically only serves Liverpool and its immediate commuter hinterland - the shape of the coastline sort of leaves it on its own. Totally unlike Edinburgh which offers connections to all of Scotland.

Indeed. Large parts of the Merseyside - London demand actually go on trains from Chester to London, or the Glasgow to London trains from Wigan North Western or Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I do think "cut the London-Edinburgh services to allow more trains to stop at Chathill" is a very RailUK answer to a problem that just doesnt exist

 

[hexagon789]

Liverpool is a bit unique among the Avanti destinations in that it has almost no hinterland that would connect into the service at Lime St. It basically only serves Liverpool and its immediate commuter hinterland - the shape of the coastline sort of leaves it on its own. Totally unlike Edinburgh which offers connections to all of Scotland.

That is true, Edinburgh even gets some traffic from Glasgow going to London changing off ScotRail. Liverpool Dorset really have a direct equivalent.

I think given how well loaded the Liverpools usually were that a 2nd tph was very justified. IIRC Virgin were quite happy to support it, and for all their faults they knew their market pretty well.

Fair points, certainly their must be perceived untapped demand or you would assume the plans for the second service would be scrapped.

I do think "cut the London-Edinburgh services to allow more trains to stop at Chathill" is a very RailUK answer to a problem that just doesnt exist

 

[yoyothehobo]

Being truly honest, most of these places you can imagine what they would be like with a 0.5TPH by looking at Reston. Which as far as i can tell appears to be a great place for the locals to charge their electric cars and not much else.

I have a friend who has used Reston station a few times and they say services are mostly picking up/dropping off no one. She only used it because she lives across the road, any further she would just drive to Berwick or Dunbar

 

[Killingworth]

LNER, Lumo and TPE all cover the Newcastle - Edinburgh section, but so does Cross Country. My observations at Alnmouth on a couple of evenings last October were of very well filled short XC trains and almost empty long trains from LNER. That illustrates the problem in making judgements from observing a very few trains at particular times and places.

It was cold waiting to see off a relative going back into Newcastle but it was interesting to see the excellent service, 35 miles in 28 minutes. No wonder so many live up the Northumberland coast and commute. (Living near the tracks between Sheffield and Manchester I'm very envious!) The stopper does it in 62 minutes - which illustrates the pathing problem.

 

[InOban]

One of the main strengths of the ECML, compared with the WCML North of Crewe, is the level of traffic from Edinburgh (and beyond ) to the intermediate stations such as York, Doncaster and Peterborough. Nearly 60 years ago I used to catch the 08.00 from KX (you were almost certain to get a Deltic on an early service! ). It was almost empty on departure but we'll loaded before Edinburgh.