How is it decided whether a station should be moved inside the TfL Travelcard/Oyster (or other PTE) area?

[AY1975]

Following on from the long-running thread on the withdrawal of Day Travelcards at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfl-proposes-to-withdraw-day-travelcards.247184/ and this one on how important city boundaries are for transport around the world at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...daries-for-transport-around-the-world.251827/ I wonder how TfL decides whether a station that is geographically just outside the Greater London boundaries should be moved inside the Travelcard/Oyster area.

In recent years a number of lines and stations that used to be outside the Travelcard area (which should probably be referred to as the Oyster area in future) have been moved inside it, including (to name but a few) the Hampton Court branch, Ewell East, Ewell West, Upper Warlingham, Swanley, Dartford, the last few stations on the Tattenham Corner branch (as I recall Woodmansterne or Chipstead used to be the boundary station) and the last three stations at the east end of the Central Line (Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping).

On the other hand, the Shepperton branch remains outside the Travelcard area beyond Hampton. You might think that if the Hampton Court branch and the whole of the Tattenham Corner branch should be inside the TfL zonal area, so should the whole of the Shepperton branch. It would also seem odd that Epsom is still outside it but Epsom Downs is now in it (I think Belmont used to be the boundary station).

I would guess that similar considerations might also apply in the case of stations just inside or just outside the PTE areas (West Midlands, Greater Manchester etc).

Maybe there were some instances where TfL wanted to move a particular station or group of stations into the zonal area but the train operator(s) involved said no because it would make fares from those stations to any station inside the zonal area cheaper, thereby potentially leading to a significant reduction in revenue (although on the other hand it could also encourage more people from those places to travel into central London)?

 

[Alex365Dash]

In recent years a number of lines and stations that used to be outside the Travelcard area (which should probably be referred to as the Oyster area in future) have been moved inside it, including (to name but a few) the Hampton Court branch, Ewell East, Ewell West, Upper Warlingham, Swanley, Dartford, the last few stations on the Tattenham Corner branch (as I recall Woodmansterne or Chipstead used to be the boundary station) and the last three stations at the east end of the Central Line (Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping).

If I recall correctly, you can thank Essex County Council for putting Epping in Zone 6

Also, switching terms from Travelcard area to Oyster area comes with some side effects - like how Gatwick Airport is in the Oyster area but not in the London Zones (and therefore the Travelcard area) because of its distance! Of course, considering the obvious destination at the station, it makes a lot of sense…

 

[Edvid]

Extending the primary zones to Central line stations in Essex was purely a London initiative (no subsidy), according to a FOI response from September 2017:

3. By the 1990’s, Essex County Council gave financial support to London Underground Limited (now Transport for London) in relation to subsidising the fares. Whereas now, for example, Amersham/Chesham remain in Zone 9 (was C), Epping is Zone 6. Can you please confirm if this still happens, how much is given to TfL by ECC? If not, when did this stop?
-----
No fares subsidy have been received from Essex County Council since the inception of TfL in 2000 and we are not aware of any payments being made in the 1990s. The Epping branch was moved into Zone 6 in 1997 as a [LRT] initiative. The Metropolitan Line to Amersham/Chesham continues to have stations in zones 7 to 9 because this is a joint line with Chiltern Railways and fares have to reflect the fact that the line extends beyond Amersham.

On the other side, Epsom is a curious case - the maps label it as being outside the zones but it's actually subject to Z1-9 PAYG caps (granted Z7-9 are entirely outside GL). There's more on MikeWH's site (article dated March 2019) if you want to delve in.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder how TfL decides whether a station that is geographically just outside the Greater London boundaries should be moved inside the Travelcard/Oyster area.

In so far as it relates to National Rail services, it isn't TfL who makes the decision on moving stations into Zones 1-6, but one that involves all parties to the Travelcard agreement. (Oyster area is a bit of a misnomer in this instance.)

In recent years a number of lines and stations that used to be outside the Travelcard area (which should probably be referred to as the Oyster area in future) have been moved inside it, including (to name but a few) the Hampton Court branch, Ewell East, Ewell West, Upper Warlingham, Swanley, Dartford, the last few stations on the Tattenham Corner branch (as I recall Woodmansterne or Chipstead used to be the boundary station) and the last three stations at the east end of the Central Line (Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping).

Hampton Court is fairly obvious. The River Thames is the Greater London boundary in that area, and the palace of Hampton Court itself sits within the boundaries of Greater London. Similarly, Stoneleigh station isn't in Greater London but serves an area within Greater London. Both have been within Zone 6 for a long time.

The Epsom Downs, Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches were brought into Zone 6 by Southern from January 2006, together with Upper Warlingham. Ewell East followed in January 2007. This seemed to be about stopping railheading and pushing up use on the branches. It probably didn't cost Southern much to have passengers travel all the way from Tattenham Corner instead of having them railhead further in. Indeed, perhaps encouraging use on these branches.

This note says it was a purely commercial decision by Southern.
https://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/D...e/20060410/Agenda/Travel card zone 6 rpt..pdf

2.1 The decision to include Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner railway stations into zone 6 was a purely commercial one on the part of Southern Railways.
2.2 The County welcomed the move on the basis of making train travel on those lines more attractive, hopefully achieving modal shift, and also hopefully reducing railheading (railheading is where passengers drive to a distant station rather than use their local station, because of fares or the level of service or both, putting them off travelling from their local station. Clearly with our roads getting busier this is unhelpful and should be discouraged.)
2.3 Currently some people who could use these stations drive over to Redhill where there is a more frequent and quicker service to London. By expanding zone 6 it is hoped that it will make people who live locally to Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner use those stations because of the price incentive instead of driving over to Redhill.
2.4 The Passenger Transport Group will continue to lobby train operators to make train travel attractive in terms of price and suggesting the expansion of zone 6 in Surrey where it is appropriate.
2.5 The County Council does recognise the commercial realities that train operators face in running the railways. While lightly used stations like Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner are not going to cause major damage to train company finances when ticket prices are reduced as a result of their inclusion within zone 6, the inclusion of Epsom station itself as Surrey’s third busiest station, would certainly hit train operator finances.

Swanley and Dartford are both more recent and in Zone 8, so not within Zone 6. Epsom is in Zone 9. I'd imagine a fairly substantial revenue loss from Epsom if it were in Zone 6.

On the other hand, the Shepperton branch remains outside the Travelcard area beyond Hampton. You might think that if the Hampton Court branch and the whole of the Tattenham Corner branch should be inside the TfL zonal area, so should the whole of the Shepperton branch. It would also seem odd that Epsom is still outside it but Epsom Downs is now in it (I think Belmont used to be the boundary station).

Shepperton is interesting. It is quite close to prime commuter territory - eg Walton on Thames, Weybridge etc - I'd imagine that the perceived revenue loss and amount of custom on the Kingston loop has always been such that the relevant operators haven't been keen to move it into Zone 6, like happened with the Tattenham Corner branch. Shepperton sees a lot more entries and exits than Tattenham Corner or Epsom Downs. Epsom is orders of magnitude more.

There is a point raised about the Shepperton line by London Travelwatch about the Shepperton line in this piece, but no one ever seems to have been interested in reducing prices on the branch.
https://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/d...atch - Surrey CC Rail Strategy commentary.pdf

London TravelWatch recommends that Oyster / Contactless extension should contemplated in two sections. Section one should be the inclusion of the Shepperton branch in Travelcard Zone 6 covering Kempton Park, Sunbury, Upper Halliford and Shepperton stations. Services on this route are of stopping nature and generally take longer for journeys into London than neighbouring lines. However, experience of incorporating the Caterham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs branches into zone 6 in 2006 showed that in a similar situation to that of the Shepperton branch, additional passenger journeys can be generated by this from passengers who are more price and less time sensitive. This in turn would ease concerns about crowding on faster routes either side of the branch i.e Staines / Ashford and Esher / Waltonon-Thames. The Shepperton branch also has more capacity to absorb any growth easily.

 

[MikeWh]

Some interesting responses. I was under the impression that Essex/Surrey Councils were involved, but clearly that wasn't the case.

As far as Epsom goes, it has the same issue as Amersham in that trains continue further out and the potential revenue loss prohibits it being properly included in zone 6. It's only in zone 9 because the daily cap for that zone was the closest to the Epsom to zones 1-6 travelcard. When it comes to period travelcards the Epsom to zones 1-6 price is significantly cheaper than zones 1-9 and thus unless someone needs regular travel to Amersham/Brentwood it would be overkill. The gates will accept tickets to zone 9 though, so a season ticket holder from Brentwood who fancied a trip to Epsom would be fine.

Both Dartford and Swanley have long been included in the London Freedom Pass. The caps for zones 1-8 were also not too far away from the existing travelcards to zones 1-6. Frustratingly there are two issues here which do sometimes cause problems. Swanley to zones 1-6 period travelcard prices are slightly more expensive than the more flexible zones 1-8 versions, but the old fare is regulated and thus can't be removed. The station ticket office won't sell the old version, but I'm not convinced there is anything to stop online purchase. Dartford is worse. A zone 1-8 or 1-9 travelcard is produced by including the route code for "AAA Zones 1-8" or "AAA Zones 1-9". However, Dartford tickets have to have route "Not Valid on HS1", so a Dartford travelcard is not actually a zones 1-8/9 travelcard, even though the off-peak price is the same.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

I was under the impression that Essex/Surrey Councils were involved, but clearly that wasn't the case.

So was I for Essex. I can't see any benefit to TfL from putting the Epping branch into Zone 6; it would just reduce the extra income they were getting anyway from people driving from bits of Essex to the end of the Central line rather to their nearest National Rail station with a poorer and more expensive service. Note though that TfL only said that they were "not aware of any payments being made in the 1990s", which for a reply in 2017 isn't surprising as any information which might exist would probably take rather longer to track down than is reasonable under FOI.

 

[Somewhere]

I could have sworn Essex paid for the northern bit of the Hainault Loop to be within the zones

 

[MikeWh]

I could have sworn Essex paid for the northern bit of the Hainault Loop to be within the zones

It was always in the zones, but zone 4 was expanded such that the entire loop was in one zone.

 

[TUC]

Since the thread title refers to PTEs too, it's worth highlighting that West Yorkshire Metro expanded its boundary several years ago to include the Skip ton and Harrogate parts of North Yorkshire as zones 5, 6 and 7, although only in respect of certain products such as MCards. I do know know whether North Yorkshire contributed financially to this arrangement.

Oddly, it does not include the Selby area which, in terms of commuter flows into Leeds, would have been the other logical area to include.

 

[Somewhere]

It was always in the zones, but zone 4 was expanded such that the entire loop was in one zone.

I remember it being in Zone 3C before zones 5 and 6 were invented. Perhaps that was Essex, and TfL (or LRT) opted to put them in Zone 4 to prevent railheading

 

[PeterC]

I could have sworn Essex paid for the northern bit of the Hainault Loop to be within the zones

Only Chigwell station is wholly within Essex. Wikipedia states that the county boundary runs through Roding Valley Station (i haven't verified that on aarge scale map) while Grange Hill is right on the county boundary so the station is in Londo but the pavement immediately outside the entrance is in Essex.

 

[Deerfold]

Since the thread title refers to PTEs too, it's worth highlighting that West Yorkshire Metro expanded its boundary several years ago to include the Skip ton and Harrogate parts of North Yorkshire as zones 5, 6 and 7, although only in respect of certain products such as MCards. I do know know whether North Yorkshire contributed financially to this arrangement.

Oddly, it does not include the Selby area which, in terms of commuter flows into Leeds, would have been the other logical area to include.

Skipton and Cononley are in Zone 7, Weeton to Harrogate are in Zone 6. All of Zone 5 is in West Yorkshire except for Darton in South Yorkshire which is treated as being in West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire (other stations treated like that are all in South Yorkshire).

The two products available for various periods of time (notably all are at least a week) are Zones 1-5 + 6 and Zones 1-5 + 7. There is no ticket that includes both Zone 6 and Zone 7.
Unlike MCard products they don't cover any bus services (all MCard products for a week or more include all bus services within West Yorkshire). They're more expensive than seasons between Skipton and Leeds and Harrogate and Leeds, respectively, so are likely to be useful for few people.

Tickets for these Zones remain as paper tickets and are not available on MCards, though all other Zones are now MCard only.

 

[Farigiraf]

Roding Valley top left, Chigwell middle, Grange Hill top right. Essex/London boundary in red. Would be easy to just straighten the sticky-outy bits which make RV and GH both on the border.

If the central extends to Harlow, what zone would it be in? All tube lines are within the oyster zones so far, so unless they extend Oyster PAYG to Stansted it'll be an anomaly. (And if Essex gets Oyster, Kent, Herts, Surrey, Berks and Bucks will want it too!)

 

[JonathanH]

If the central extends to Harlow, what zone would it be in?

That is a purely hypothetical question.

All tube lines are within the oyster zones so far

Zone 9 in the case of Amersham and Chesham.

so unless they extend Oyster PAYG to Stansted it'll be an anomaly.

Huh?

(And if Essex gets Oyster, Kent, Herts, Surrey, Berks and Bucks will want it too!)

There are already plans to extend Contactless PAYG into those areas and include many of the features of Oyster.

 

[Farigiraf]

That is a purely hypothetical question.

It's been proposed, and while speculative it is related

Zone 9 in the case of Amersham and Chesham.

It has Oyster card acceptance though. Harlow having Oyster, not just contactless would make other counties also want Oyster

Huh?

It would be the first tube (underground) to not get Oyster (not just contactless) acceptance

There are already plans to extend Contactless PAYG into those areas and include many of the features of Oyster.

but not Oyster, and not as far as Harlow, which is as far out of London as Guildford and isn't getting Project Oval

 

[Deerfold]

All tube lines are within the oyster zones so far, so unless they extend Oyster PAYG to Stansted it'll be an anomaly. (And if Essex gets Oyster, Kent, Herts, Surrey, Berks and Bucks will want it too!)

Hertfordshire has 7 Underground stations and 6 mainline stations that accept Oyster.
2 of those are the same station.

The rail line to Ewell East in Surrey also accepts Oyster.

 

[Somewhere]

Hertfordshire has 7 Underground stations and 6 mainline stations that accept Oyster.
2 of those are the same station.

The rail line to Ewell East in Surrey also accepts Oyster.

As well as the Epsom Downs branch, the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches, and Upper Warlingham station.
Stoneleigh station is also in Surrey.
Oyster is also valid at Epsom (although you won't see that advertised anywhere)

 

[Edvid]

but not Oyster, and not as far as Harlow, which is as far out of London as Guildford and isn't getting Project Oval

The Phase 2 limits of Project Oval are still subject to change; in the meantime you can't be certain Harlow won't (or indeed will) be included.

If there is a Central line extension to Harlow, today's Oyster system will have long been superseded by its Proteus Contract successor; it will have memory for more fare zones than today's system and the possibility of its acceptance beyond current limits.* That's an important consideration since an extension would likely require central government approval/funding, and you can be sure the DfT/HMT/RDG would not accept Zone 8 or 9 (let alone Zone 6!) extending that far beyond GLA territory where longstanding LRT/TfL fares did not previously apply.

[* Note that Oyster is currently not accepted on the Elizabeth line west of West Drayton. That it's technically not a tube line matters little as TfL treat it like one for ticketing purposes between Paddington and Abbey Wood.]

 

[Alex365Dash]

The Phase 2 limits of Project Oval are still subject to change; in the meantime you can't be certain Harlow won't (or indeed will) be included.

Whilst technically true, it would be an unusual decision to change the boundaries of Project Oval to no longer cover Stansted Airport - which is further than Harlow Town.

but not Oyster, and not as far as Harlow, which is as far out of London as Guildford and isn't getting Project Oval

Has something changed since the last time I checked? As far as I'm aware, both Harlow Town and Guildford are getting Contactless PAYG!

 

[JonathanH]

Has something changed since the last time I checked? As far as I'm aware, both Harlow Town and Guildford are getting Contactless PAYG!

I think the previous poster is noting that it won't be in Phase 1 of Project Oval. Phase 2 of Project Oval is currently expected to reach Cambridge, let alone Harlow Town.

 

[MikeWh]

Oyster is also valid at Epsom (although you won't see that advertised anywhere)

Oh yes you will!

What isn't advertised is the fact that it is in zone 9.

 

[jon81uk]

It's been proposed, and while speculative it is related

Extending the Central line to Harlow wasn't really proposed, it was a blue sky proposal by the Conservative councillors who seem to want it but I expect wouldn't fund it. Its never going to happen, they were just trying to win votes.

But contactless payment will come at some point.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Alex365dash said

Also, switching terms from Travelcard area to Oyster area comes with some side effects - like how Gatwick Airport is in the Oyster area but not in the London Zones (and therefore the Travelcard area) because of its distance! Of course, considering the obvious destination at the station, it makes a lot of sense…

JUst let ryanair take over and it would be!

 

[AY1975]

Shepperton is interesting. It is quite close to prime commuter territory - eg Walton on Thames, Weybridge etc - I'd imagine that the perceived revenue loss and amount of custom on the Kingston loop has always been such that the relevant operators haven't been keen to move it into Zone 6, like happened with the Tattenham Corner branch. Shepperton sees a lot more entries and exits than Tattenham Corner or Epsom Downs. Epsom is orders of magnitude more.

There is a point raised about the Shepperton line by London Travelwatch about the Shepperton line in this piece, but no one ever seems to have been interested in reducing prices on the branch.
https://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/documents/s77796/London TravelWatch - Surrey CC Rail Strategy commentary.pdf

Maybe a compromise solution would be to move the Shepperton branch west of Hampton (potentially along with the likes of Staines, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge etc) into Zone 7, 8 or 9, or for them to remain outside the zonal area but to accept Oyster and contactless but with special fares being charged (as I believe is currently the case at Shenfield and Watford Junction, for example).

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe a compromise solution would be to move the Shepperton branch west of Hampton (potentially along with the likes of Staines, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge etc) into Zone 7, 8 or 9, or for them to remain outside the zonal area but to accept Oyster and contactless but with special fares being charged (as I believe is currently the case at Shenfield and Watford Junction, for example).

Zone 7, 8 or 9 isn't going to work. The revenue loss would be too great. There is only so much capacity to offer special fares on Oyster, and it doesn't really work if the places are on opposite sides of London.

Contactless will soon be offered from the stations you mention, with special fares.

 

[Edvid]

Maybe a compromise solution would be to move the Shepperton branch west of Hampton (potentially along with the likes of Staines, Walton-on-Thames, Weybridge etc) into Zone 7, 8 or 9, or for them to remain outside the zonal area but to accept Oyster and contactless but with special fares being charged (as I believe is currently the case at Shenfield and Watford Junction, for example).

Kempton Park - Shepperton and Ashford - Virginia Water / Windsor & Eton Riverside inclusive are included in Phase 1 of Project Oval (the contactless PAYG expansion); it was originally meant to happen pretty much a year ago but it's gone out to June 2024 since then. I've attached a map to put the expansion in context.

Most of the so-called special fares on Oyster are actually linked to unlabelled route-specific Zones 10-14:
* Zone 10: Watford Junction; beyond Zone 6 to Grays
* Zone 11: Radlett; Potters Bar; Bayford, Hertford North [Cuffley is in Zone 9]; beyond Zone 8 to Hertford East
* Zone 12: Shenfield
* Zone 13: beyond Zone 6 to Horley
* Zone 14: Gatwick Airport

My understanding is the fares are controlled by one TOC per zone, and with Oyster being limited to 16 fare zones maximum any additional station effectively has to be allocated to an existing zone.* That means both the station-serving TOCs and the zone-managing TOC have to reach consensus on applicable fares; might be currently (barely?) manageable with three TOCs involved in Zone 10 and two in each of the others, but no more than that.

[* Zone 0 is reserved for necessary operational reasons, I believe. Zone 15 was originally reserved for the 22-mile Elizabeth line stretch beyond Zone 6 to Reading but is not used for the reasons above.]

 

[sk688]

Why are Fares from Watford Junction into London , with it's Zone 10 designation , disproportinately higher compared to Watford Met, which is in Zone 7. Other nearby Oyster/Contactless stations like Radlett , which is further out, have cheaper fares into London as well , so why does WFJ in particular have such high fares.

Speaking of Zones the Watford local cllrs and MPs do from time to time , launch frequent petitions to move the Watford stations into Zone 6 which are quickly ignored by TFL

 

[JonathanH]

Why are Fares from Watford Junction into London , with it's Zone 10 designation , disproportinately higher compared to Watford Met, which is in Zone 7.

Demand and speed of service justifies a higher fare from Watford Junction than Watford Met, which is a bit of a backwater.

Other nearby Oyster/Contactless stations like Radlett , which is further out, have cheaper fares into London as well , so why does WFJ in particular have such high fares.

They don't run non stop trains to London from Radlett. Again, it reflects relative demand and the service offering.

Speaking of Zones the Watford local cllrs and MPs do from time to time , launch frequent petitions to move the Watford stations into Zone 6 which are quickly ignored by TFL

Indeed, the fact that is ignored is hardly surprising. It isn't up to TfL to set the fares between Watford Junction and London, and Watford is not in Greater London.

 

[greatkingrat]

Why are Fares from Watford Junction into London , with it's Zone 10 designation , disproportinately higher compared to Watford Met, which is in Zone 7. Other nearby Oyster/Contactless stations like Radlett , which is further out, have cheaper fares into London as well , so why does WFJ in particular have such high fares.

Speaking of Zones the Watford local cllrs and MPs do from time to time , launch frequent petitions to move the Watford stations into Zone 6 which are quickly ignored by TFL

They'd be better off launching a petition to move Watford into Greater London if they really want cheaper fares.

 

[miklcct]

Why are Fares from Watford Junction into London , with it's Zone 10 designation , disproportinately higher compared to Watford Met, which is in Zone 7. Other nearby Oyster/Contactless stations like Radlett , which is further out, have cheaper fares into London as well , so why does WFJ in particular have such high fares.

It's because LNR controls the fare between Watford Junction and Zone 1 (while London Overground controls the fare between Watford Jnction and Zone 2), and LNR wants to rip commuters off.

Fares from Watford Junction are the same as from Amersham (Zone 9) for non-Zone-1 journeys, and a Zone 2-9 Travelcard includes Watford Junction as well.

Watford High Street is in Zone 8, with fares from there to Zone 1 controlled by London Overground, i.e. TfL, so it may be a good place to start your commute having a more reliable service with more convenient interchange opportunities en-route, including to the orbital at Willesden Junction.