How many dedicated mail trains still run?

[Hellfire]

Was coming home on a VT service the other evening and we passed a Royal Mail train heading north near Warrington.

Made me wonder how many dedicated mail trains are still running in the UK and is mail still sorted on these trains.

"This is the night mail crossing the border...."

 

[merlodlliw]

Travelling Post Offices or TPOs, with staff sorting letters no longer run.

My local TPO was The Bangor Crewe ex Rhyl 2205 Sun/Fri, add a penny to the normal stamp & delivery next day. Well used by reps as I recall,up to 10 waiting its arrival into Rhyl station . The frank embossed on the letter BTW was Bangor Crewe TPO

Bob

 

[D365]

Isn't it just the 15/14 (32510 scrapped and 325009 stored at Crewe IEMD) remaining 325s, some of which you saw? (And perhaps some other rolling stock which I might have forgotten)

Oh btw, before anyone suggests converting them into passenger vehicles, they are still owned and used by Royal Mail. Even though they were designed with conversion in mind, it would still be quite a job. Would it be possible to fit Tightlocks and make them compatible with the 319s they are based on?

Was it SNCF or some other freight operator who ran a TGV into St Pancras as a trial for regular cross-Channel high-speed mail trains to Barking?

 

[33056]

In simple terms there is one train from Willesden to Shieldmuir and an equivalent working back south and, just started this week, one from Willesden to Low Fell and Low Fell to Willesden. They are all formed of 325s carrying bulk mail only, the last TPOs ran in January 2004 IIRC.

 

[Boothby97]

Isn't it just the 15 remaining 325s, some of which you saw? (And perhaps some other rolling stock which I might have forgotten)

Just the fifteen Class 325s, all owned by RM. Numbered 325001-009/011-016. 325010 was scrapped at CF Booths Rotherham last year. 325009 is reported to be stored at Crewe IEMD.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

325009 is reported to be stored at Crewe IEMD.

Certainly is. I've seen it before, among with some others that I suspect were just stabling, or there temporarily

 

[Mikey C]

Maybe they should put windows in the unwanted trains, and use them for the newly electrified routes in the North West

 

[rebmcr]

Maybe they should put windows in the unwanted trains, and use them for the newly electrified routes in the North West

That's a really bright idea. IIRC they were designed to accommodate passenger retrofitting, too.

 

[edwin_m]

They were based on the 319 bodyshell and indeed suitable for conversion to passenger use, according to Modern Railways at the time of introduction. Cribbing an idea from another topic, and with tongue very much in cheek, perhaps some of them could be refitted as sleeper EMUs?

 

[telstarbox]

In simple terms there is one train from Willesden to Shieldmuir and an equivalent working back south and, just started this week, one from Willesden to Low Fell and Low Fell to Willesden. They are all formed of 325s carrying bulk mail only, the last TPOs ran in January 2004 IIRC.

Do the Willesden-Shieldmuir services always stop at Warrington, and do the Willesden-Low Fell services only stop at Doncaster?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Isn't it just the 15 remaining 325s, some of which you saw? (And perhaps some other rolling stock which I might have forgotten)

Was it SNCF or some other freight operator who ran a TGV into St Pancras as a trial for regular cross-Channel high-speed mail trains to Barking?

Yes a SNCF TGV La Poste was dragged into St Pancras as part of a trial run. I think it was done in conjunction with one of the international freight companies but I can't remember which one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe they should put windows in the unwanted trains, and use them for the newly electrified routes in the North West

Hmmm, the stumbling block might be that they are owned by the Royal Mail.

 

[Eagle]

I think it was done in conjunction with one of the international freight companies but I can't remember which one.

Euro Carex, a consortium of various companies including Eurotunnel, who own GBRF (which company ran the UK part of the trial).

 

[High Dyke]

Do the Willesden-Low Fell services only stop at Doncaster?

Not as far as i know.

1E47

WLSDN PR        20:32
PETERBORO 21:45 21:48
DONC RMT  22:54 23:02
YORK      23:46 23:46
DARLINGTN 00:23 00:23
LOWFRMT   01:09

1M80

LOWFRMT         21:47
DONCASTER 23:06 23:08
PETERBORO 00:11 00:11
WLSDN PR  01:52

 

[Boothby97]

The Low Fell-Willesden has only just restarted. The Sheildmuir-Willesden train doesn't stop at Warrington but there is a Warrington-Willesden and two Sheildmuir-Warrington services each day.

 

[30mog]

As one who works for Royal Mail. RM rather shot use of rails in the foot themselves by deciding that loose loading of mailbags to road and rail vehicles was too labour intensive. You could loose load 100s of mailbags, perhaps over 1000, into one railway carriage. Trains were adapted to carry York containers - a push along like those used in many warehousing functions. However, safety requirements meant a limitation on how many could be loaded into one carriage. Which had a detrimental effect on overall bags per carriage capacity.

The railway industry kicked at RM too though by taking guards vans out of the general design of a train. In those days, virtually every train had mail carrying provision. As recently as 1990, even local DMU workings from Cambridge to Ipswich, Kings Lynn & Peterborough carried mail bags. I know, a few times I bagged [no pun intended] the job of loading/unloading them. The last train to convey mail from Cambridge to anywhere, was a dedicated mail train to Liverpool Street hauled by a 47 on a Friday night in January 1992. I loaded it!

A few years later. RM invested heavily in the road/rail hub at Willesden - where the workforce had a tendency to go strike like nothing seen in this country since British Leyland. Since the Willesden hub has an 8 platform concourse it was effectively the biggest new railway station in many decades. A few years later, they ceased all rail conveyance. What a waste! I believe the road side of the site is still used to full capacity. The rail side handles just a few trains re-introduced since RM realised just how much better trains perform in bad weather than the trucks and planes they misguidedly favoured.

 

[edwin_m]

While it is unfortunate that the dedicated mail trains have largely ceased, I don't think there would ever have been a future for carrying mail in passenger trains. In most cases this would involve a RM person driving a van to the station at each end and doing their own loading/unloading - in which case it would probably be cheaper just to drive the van to the local sorting office. There was probably also an emerging liability issue in leaving the mail in the care of non-RM staff especially as they wouldn't be able to supervise it for much of the time.

All the Sprinter and 158 units were built with some sort of lockable area intended for mail and parcels. I don't think they were ever used as such.

 

[cj_1985]

As one who works for Royal Mail. RM rather shot use of rails in the foot themselves by deciding that loose loading of mailbags to road and rail vehicles was too labour intensive. You could loose load 100s of mailbags, perhaps over 1000, into one railway carriage. Trains were adapted to carry York containers - a push along like those used in many warehousing functions. However, safety requirements meant a limitation on how many could be loaded into one carriage. Which had a detrimental effect on overall bags per carriage capacity.

The railway industry kicked at RM too though by taking guards vans out of the general design of a train. In those days, virtually every train had mail carrying provision. As recently as 1990, even local DMU workings from Cambridge to Ipswich, Kings Lynn & Peterborough carried mail bags. I know, a few times I bagged [no pun intended] the job of loading/unloading them. The last train to convey mail from Cambridge to anywhere, was a dedicated mail train to Liverpool Street hauled by a 47 on a Friday night in January 1992. I loaded it!

A few years later. RM invested heavily in the road/rail hub at Willesden - where the workforce had a tendency to go strike like nothing seen in this country since British Leyland. Since the Willesden hub has an 8 platform concourse it was effectively the biggest new railway station in many decades. A few years later, they ceased all rail conveyance. What a waste! I believe the road side of the site is still used to full capacity. The rail side handles just a few trains re-introduced since RM realised just how much better trains perform in bad weather than the trucks and planes they misguidedly favoured.

its very true what your saying, RM did shoot itself in the foot... but the blame wasn't all down to RM...
As for Willesden PRDC... im lead to believe that some of the platforms (during the period the rail side was OOU were covered over to provide more platform space... but I can't confirm that as I have never been lucky enough to visit the site

The fact though, that RM has started using the rail operations more and more, and for some specialist flows ie. Mail Order returns between Scotland and England rather than using the Road network...

Thing to remember though, is that even if RM hadn't decided to stop all rail operations back in 2003/2004... the TPOs would most likely have to have been removed from service, or would have required massive amounts of money spent to make them safer in the event of a crash... remember that the TPOs were basically Mk1 based stock and as such were of much poorer structural strength than more modern stock ie. mk3s

 

[33056]

As for Willesden PRDC... im lead to believe that some of the platforms (during the period the rail side was OOU were covered over to provide more platform space... but I can't confirm that as I have never been lucky enough to visit the site

You have heard correctly, most of platforms 6 and 7 were covered over some time in 2004 or 2005 either just before the mail trains finished or shortly after - both platforms can now only hold one locomotive (or two with the gates open). Platforms 1 to 5 were unaltered and can all accomodate a 12 car 325 + one loco (or two with gates open)

 

[cj_1985]

such a shame...
almost as bad as the disposal of Bristol Parkway terminal when it was still fairly new...

I know that the loss of the traffic from rail had an effect on the use of the railnet terminals... but it just such a waste.

Atleast with Doncaster RMT there is still a daily use for it, and AIUI there looks to be a medium/long term plan to return it to daily use ,albeit not for mail train use, but you never know what the future holds

 

[AnonymousUser1]

loose loading ( despite the fact it still goes on elsewhere in RMG ) is a legal nightmare due to the manual handling ops regulations - outside RMG and other parcel carriers were does it still go on?

as for the elsewhere in RMG - I think PFW gets away with the amount of loose loading it does do because of the sorter and caljan booms at the National and international Hubs ( and the new NWPC mini hub looks to be a similar system) ... there's also the fact to loose load even mainly parcels you need the vehicle / trailer for a number of hours even with caljan booms ( 2.5 - 3 hours for one person with a steady flow on the boom ) - small items with the Hub are mainly segregated and bagged up which is then brought round to the trailers on Yorks and loose loaded to the tailboard ( as mixed destinations smalls bags are automatically 9am products )

that said within PFW there is a creeping palletisation with radiators, wine from some suppliers , and some other heavy stuff being palletised / remaining on pallets through the hub...

 

[cj_1985]

loose loading ( despite the fact it still goes on elsewhere in RMG ) is a legal nightmare due to the manual handling ops regulations - outside RMG and other parcel carriers were does it still go on?

as for the elsewhere in RMG - I think PFW gets away with the amount of loose loading it does do because of the sorter and caljan booms at the National and international Hubs ( and the new NWPC mini hub looks to be a similar system) ... there's also the fact to loose load even mainly parcels you need the vehicle / trailer for a number of hours even with caljan booms ( 2.5 - 3 hours for one person with a steady flow on the boom ) - small items with the Hub are mainly segregated and bagged up which is then brought round to the trailers on Yorks and loose loaded to the tailboard ( as mixed destinations smalls bags are automatically 9am products )

that said within PFW there is a creeping palletisation with radiators, wine from some suppliers , and some other heavy stuff being palletised / remaining on pallets through the hub...

isn't that the truth... but what other way is there... no matter how much you try, sorting mail, packets and parcels can NOT be done 100% by machine.
its all good and well changing things so that mail is always gathered up and transported throughout the network by using trays instead of sacks... but packets, and parcels can not be sorted by a machine due to the lack of standard sizes and weights, much though they try to implement such standards. Those Packets and Parcels all have to be transported either by hand due to size, or in sacks... in the case of packets able to be moved in sacks, at what point do you say to stop filling a sack... we already have limits, but that doesn't stop them being heavy as F*ck, and doesn't stop them being over filled especially at the seasonal peaks (Especially when being sorted at Mail Centres, Packet Hubs etc)... and those sacks will still have to be moved by hand.

The thing is though, with Royal Mail and Railnet, there were other options for hauled stock that would have allowed use of the Yorks... I know for a fact, that a suggestion was made to the CEO and head of the Logistics team back in 2009 offering a deliverable plan that would have allowed mail in Yorks to be moved to/from any existing RMT , or rail station that would allow access by 740CF (7.5 Tonne) or larger vehicles, close to the platforms, which wouldn't have been a stretch as several of the stations this could have been utilised to, have not been developed from their BR Condition (Namely access to platforms).
It would have required some investment in additional carriages for wider spread use, but the original suggestion was to initially provide extra capacity over the Christmas period, especially over the existing (at the time) route, and others like to the north of Scotland or to Penzance.

Although at that time the option only existed for the stock to be hauled by either a single loco (which would run round, or be routed in/out of the likes of Shieldmuir to allow access heading south on the WCML), or Top and tail it... this was before the AAR modified DVTs had really been been put into squadron service and proven themselves