How many people in a carriage

[Andy873]

I was wondering how many people could sit and stand in a railway carriage?

I'm lookimg at the Gt Harwood loop line, ex LMS, in the 1950's.

This was a steam passenger service, there were no DMU's operating here.

Did BR have standard carriages by then, or just inherited ones?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[daikilo]

I was wondering how many people could sit and stand in a railway carriage?

I'm lookimg at the Gt Harwood loop line, ex LMS, in the 1950's.

This was a steam passenger service, there were no DMU's operating here.

Did BR have standard carriages by then, or just inherited ones?

Thanks,
Andy.

Andy, firstly, BR standard mark 1 coaches started to appear in 1951. I believe they were initially based on previous big-four designs. Various internal layouts existed either in open or corridor form and I believe some high-density vehicles without corridors.

Capacity is a function of the seating layout, installed lavatories and door access. I believe seating up to about 80 existed and possibly more in a non-corridor configuration. Theoretical standing space could be a further 50-60.

 

[yorksrob]

An EPB non- corridor compartment trailer carriage could seat six people either side in ten compartments (120), plus anyone who was prepared to wedge themselves standing up between the knees.

The Southern Railway experimented with an even more densely packed carriage along similar lines, but with an extra compartment (or maybe two - I can't remember) wedged into the same space. It was too crowded and not carried into production. They were nicknamed "Sheba" units (apparently she had a great train (b-boom, tsh)).

 

[30907]

I was wondering how many people could sit and stand in a railway carriage?

I'm lookimg at the Gt Harwood loop line, ex LMS, in the 1950's.

This was a steam passenger service, there were no DMU's operating here.

Did BR have standard carriages by then, or just inherited ones?

Thanks,
Andy.

I am not an LMS expert at all, but would guess most services would have been formed of pre-nationalisation non-corridors, 9 compartment 57' seating 5 across, so 90 in a full Third, 70 in a brake. That's consistent with what photos I've seen. Corridor, or even lavatory, stock would have been rare.

BR standard non-corridors seated 6 across, but I don't know how common they were up here. Unlike the electric stock yorksrob has just mentioned, they were mostly 9-compartment.

 

[Bevan Price]

I am not an LMS expert at all, but would guess most services would have been formed of pre-nationalisation non-corridors, 9 compartment 57' seating 5 across, so 90 in a full Third, 70 in a brake. That's consistent with what photos I've seen. Corridor, or even lavatory, stock would have been rare.

BR standard non-corridors seated 6 across, but I don't know how common they were up here. Unlike the electric stock yorksrob has just mentioned, they were mostly 9-compartment.

LMS & LNER non-corridor compartments were all nominally 6 across - but only comfortably held 5 passengers if some of them were "well-built". And you could probably fit another 6+ standing passengers, and I occasionally saw small children lying on the luggage racks. Of course, having standing passengers made it difficult for seated passengers to alight before the terminus.

 

[AM9]

LMS & LNER non-corridor compartments were all nominally 6 across - but only comfortably held 5 passengers if some of them were "well-built". And you could probably fit another 6+ standing passengers, and I occasionally saw small children lying on the luggage racks. Of course, having standing passengers made it difficult for seated passengers to alight before the terminus.

I believe the most reported in a six-a-side non-corridor compartment is 30*, -12 seated and three rows of six standing, - it was during the early '70s when the ASLEF work to rule was on.

* probably only exceeded in a student stunt.

 

[daikilo]

I believe the most reported in a six-a-side non-corridor compartment is 30*, -12 seated and three rows of six standing, - it was during the early '70s when the ASLEF work to rule was on.

* probably only exceeded in a student stunt.

It would be interesting to test that on a heritage coach. Whilst people tended to be slimmer in those days, feet and shoes weren't necessarily smaller. Also, disembarking at say Waterloo may be feasible, but the dwell time at an intermediate stop as in say an evening peak would be looooong.

My brain tells me this is an urban myth or a joke, but ...

 

[30907]

It would be interesting to test that on a heritage coach. Whilst people tended to be slimmer in those days, feet and shoes weren't necessarily smaller. Also, disembarking at say Waterloo may be feasible, but the dwell time at an intermediate stop as in say an evening peak would be looooong.

My brain tells me this is an urban myth or a joke, but ...

I think this has been discussed recently on another forum thread. I would find 20-24 entirely plausible (from experience) and yes, getting off could take time....

 

[181]

My father remembers 27 people in a compartment during the war. He'd have been a child at the time, but depending when in the war it was, quite likely big enough to take up a noticeable amount of space, and old enough to remember it reasonably clearly. Apparently the carriage was sat right down on its springs so you felt every rail joint. I'm not sure where this was or what type of cariage, but going by where he lived, it was probably either the Caterham or the Oxted line.

 

[30907]

My father remembers 27 people in a compartment during the war. He'd have been a child at the time, but depending when in the war it was, quite likely big enough to take up a noticeable amount of space, and old enough to remember it reasonably clearly. Apparently the carriage was sat right down on its springs so you felt every rail joint. I'm not sure where this was or what type of cariage, but going by where he lived, it was probably either the Caterham or the Oxted line.

That's impressive, as no Oxted line stock and scarcely any Caterham would have been 6-a-side seating. Doubt if the North Lancs Loop would have had loadings like that even in holiday weeks.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone for replying, sorry I couldn't reply sooner due to pc problems.

It's a curious question from me, I read that on my old favorite line, a passenger service was typically made up of a 2-6-4 tank engine plus 3 carriages.

BR in 1956 was asked if one of the trains could start 10 minutes earler so that 400 workers could get to work on time at a new factory which was about to open.

BR declined, and even removed the stop at this station for this one train.

So I was trying to work out was it feasable to accomodate an extra 400 passengers with 3 carriages? looks like a squash, or could BR have added an extra carriage or two?

The journey time for these workers would only have been around 20 minutes.

 

[Dr Hoo]

One has to assume that the 'existing' service was already carrying a reasonable number of customers and the sets would have had to have included a brake vehicle and probably some first class seating in a composite arrangement. So it depends how many spare seats there were before the additional 400 passengers potentially decended on the train.

Three additional 57' standard LMS non-corridor vehicles would have had 3 x 108 = 324 seats so taken with spare capacity on the original train would probably have been 'comfortable'.

Whether platforms were long enough, the locomotive powerful enough, the ticket issuing facilities for 400 workmen's returns at 0600 in the morning, etc. are interesting questions.

 

[Andy873]

In 1956, BR states that an average of 103 people used the line a day in this direction.

I know that special "wakes week" seaside trains ran every year until 1964 which typically had around 8 carriages.

I don't know how long the platform at Simonstone was, but I guess it probably could have accomodated say 5 or 6 carriages.

 

[MaxB]

Yes, on compartment stock, 6 seated each side and up to 6 standing, unless we were really crowded . This led to 10 car trains on the Bexleyheath line in the mid '60s carrying up to a recorded 1700 people.