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HS3 Paddington to Newport

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Mgameing123

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I know it’s too early for it but how could a potential HS3 to the West look like. Currently the Great Western Mainline is at capacity between Reading and Paddington mainly because of the Elizabeth Line is hopefully this new line could divert existing GWR trains on the new line.

My vision would look like Paddington - Old Oak Common - Heathrow Central - Reading - New Bristol Cental Station? - Newport.

To cross the river Severn we will need to build a tunnel between Portishead and somewhere near the coast of Newport.

The most realistic way this would be built is by starting with Phase 1 between Paddington and Reading just to help alleviate capacity. Then Phase 2 between Newport and Bristol then Phase 3 between Reading and Bristol.

Benefits of HS3:

- Possibility to send GWR trains between Paddington and South Wales via Bristol which is a high demand destination.

- More capacity on the GWML so possibility to run additional Elizabeth Line trains, freight trains and even some more semi fast trains.

- Direct train connections between West England, South Wales and Heathrow Airport.
 
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The Planner

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I know it’s too early for it but how could a potential HS3 to the West look like. Currently the Great Western Mainline is at capacity between Reading and Paddington mainly because of the Elizabeth Line is hopefully this new line could divert existing GWR trains on the new line.

My vision would look like Paddington - Old Oak Common - Heathrow Central - Reading - New Bristol Cental Station? - Newport.

To cross the river Severn we will need to build a tunnel between Portishead and somewhere near the coast of Newport.

The most realistic way this would be built is by starting with Phase 1 between Paddington and Reading just to help alleviate capacity. Then Phase 2 between Newport and Bristol then Phase 3 between Reading and Bristol.

Benefits of HS3:

- Possibility to send GWR trains between Paddington and South Wales via Bristol which is a high demand destination.

- More capacity on the GWML so possibility to run additional Elizabeth Line trains, freight trains and even some more semi fast trains.

- Direct train connections between West England, South Wales and Heathrow Airport.
What is the higher priority, Bristol or Wales? Do you have Bristol on a spur like Birmingham but with the ability to head SW and the main line to Wales? Would likely mean a much shorter Severn tunnel, especially when you consider the terrain either side of the Severn at both Newport and Portishead. Why stop at Newport?
 

Sad Sprinter

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My Google Earth file is filled with lines like this across the map.

I theorised a new spine from London to Bristol, with one arm going down a new HS line to Exeter and a second line across a new combined airport, seaport, tidal power station across the Severn Estuary. You could also have a combined Cardiff/Newport/Bristol Metro system to turn the three cities into one combined metropolitan area. A man can dream...
 

Mgameing123

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What is the higher priority, Bristol or Wales? Do you have Bristol on a spur like Birmingham but with the ability to head SW and the main line to Wales? Would likely mean a much shorter Severn tunnel, especially when you consider the terrain either side of the Severn at both Newport and Portishead. Why stop at Newport?
Newport is the third biggest city in Wales. It definitely is a major trip generator.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My Google Earth file is filled with lines like this across the map.

I theorised a new spine from London to Bristol, with one arm going down a new HS line to Exeter and a second line across a new combined airport, seaport, tidal power station across the Severn Estuary. You could also have a combined Cardiff/Newport/Bristol Metro system to turn the three cities into one combined metropolitan area. A man can dream...
That would be cool. The HS3 could start the project up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What is the higher priority, Bristol or Wales? Do you have Bristol on a spur like Birmingham but with the ability to head SW and the main line to Wales? Would likely mean a much shorter Severn tunnel, especially when you consider the terrain either side of the Severn at both Newport and Portishead. Why stop at Newport?
It’s going to be a longer Severn Tunnel but it might be doable considering how there are longer underwater tunnels.
 

JonathanH

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I know it’s too early for it but how could a potential HS3 to the West look like.
Given the mess made with HS2, and no chance of anything useful ever being made of it, 'too early' is a massive overstatement.

We have had a thread about trying to put six lines out of Paddington and running a bypass line out towards the west, yet it takes the best part of 70 minutes to get from Wokingham to Waterloo never going more than 70mph.

Building grandiose schemes simply isn't viable, and does not have the significant public support to be seen as a good use of money.

Why do we need to make it quicker to get from South Wales to London, than from East Berkshire?
 

Mgameing123

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Given the mess made with HS2, and no chance of anything useful ever being made of it, 'too early' is a massive overstatement.
The mess made with HS2 is project mismanagement. Maybe if the government actually didn’t cancel the other legs of HS2 then HS2 would actually be very useful.
 

The Planner

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Newport is the third biggest city in Wales. It definitely is a major trip generator.
Yes, but why stop at Newport when Cardiff is the capital. Your suggestion of Portishead would actually be easier to avoid Newport entirely.
It’s going to be a longer Severn Tunnel but it might be doable considering how there are longer underwater tunnels.
There are, but a shorter tunnel is cheaper.
 

py_megapixel

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I'm not sure this is the highest priority at the moment. The proposed scheme would cost many billions of pounds, and think how much could be achieved by throwing that money at electrification of existing lines, or even at building new light rail.

If there is going to be an HS3 in the foreseeable future, it needs to be a high-speed transpennine route. The old Northern Powerhouse Rail plan doesn't really work now as it relied on being joined to the northern sections of HS2 at various points, but something with a similar function is warranted.
 

Envoy

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Going to Portishead to cross the Severn is surely out of the question due to the terrain on the English side = hilly & you can’t go through the gorge.

I would suggest going west from Bristol Parkway following the present line that they plan to use for the Metro West to Chittening and then over the Severn on a barrage that would double up as a tidal power station. On reaching the Welsh side, a new station to serve Newport would be built by the docks and then the new line would proceed to Cardiff - but being as the present line here is straight, that would do with the reliefs being used for freights and local stuff. This would mean no more reliance on the ancient Severn Tunnel as well as being a short cut to Cardiff. Downside is no connection at Newport with the Marches line. No doubt the eco warriors would be on to this - as they have when a new M4 was proposed across the so called ‘wetlands’ = farmland reclaimed from marshes long ago and drained by reens - so not a natural wetland.

Anyway, what I think would be more realistic would be to get the IET’s running at their full speed of 140mph on the straighter sections of the GWML.

A new line between just south of Exeter & Newton Abbot would surely be of great benefit to the south-west - avoiding the route through Dawlish which would remain for local trains.
 

Mgameing123

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Going to Portishead to cross the Severn is surely out of the question due to the terrain on the English side = hilly & you can’t go through the gorge.

I would suggest going west from Bristol Parkway following the present line that they plan to use for the Metro West to Chittening and then over the Severn on a barrage that would double up as a tidal power station. On reaching the Welsh side, a new station to serve Newport would be built by the docks and then the new line would proceed to Cardiff - but being as the present line here is straight, that would do with the reliefs being used for freights and local stuff. This would mean no more reliance on the ancient Severn Tunnel as well as being a short cut to Cardiff. Downside is no connection at Newport with the Marches line. No doubt the eco warriors would be on to this - as they have when a new M4 was proposed across the so called ‘wetlands’ = farmland reclaimed from marshes long ago and drained by reens - so not a natural wetland.

Anyway, what I think would be more realistic would be to get the IET’s running at their full speed of 140mph on the straighter sections of the GWML.

A new line between just south of Exeter & Newton Abbot would surely be of great benefit to the south-west - avoiding the route through Dawlish which would remain for local trains.
The issue is that the current routing of the Mainline bypasses Central Bristol. Is there any way to get Central Bristol served on this HS3?

Also the main star of the show on this proposal is Reading to Paddington via Heathrow Central and Old Oak Common.
 
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Another way this could have been done, would be to have four tracked HS2 from Euston as far as about Amersham, and then branch off to the west, joining the GWML near Didcot. Then four tracking Didcot to Swindon, increasing the line speed of this section and building new stations for the towns/villages, before continuing on the classic lines beyond Swindon.
 

The Planner

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Another way this could have been done, would be to have four tracked HS2 from Euston as far as about Amersham, and then branch off to the west, joining the GWML near Didcot. Then four tracking Didcot to Swindon, increasing the line speed of this section and building new stations for the towns/villages, before continuing on the classic lines beyond Swindon.
Wow, if you think getting HS2 through the Chilterns itself was hard enough, getting across the Chiltern escarpment and South Oxfordshire to Didcot would be even worse.
 

Mgameing123

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Another way this could have been done, would be to have four tracked HS2 from Euston as far as about Amersham, and then branch off to the west, joining the GWML near Didcot. Then four tracking Didcot to Swindon, increasing the line speed of this section and building new stations for the towns/villages, before continuing on the classic lines beyond Swindon.
You realize just how far away Amersham is from Didcot right?
 

SynthD

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The issue is that the current routing of the Mainline bypasses Central Bristol. Is there any way to get Central Bristol served on this HS3?
Yes, a lot more underground running, including a cavern station in central Bristol and many emergency exits. A simpler option could be to come above ground and join the regular lines (Keynsham), use the widest platforms possible at Temple Mead, dive underwater from Clevedon to Peterstone, and onto Cardiff. If Newport is critical, then perhaps Bristol Parkway is better than Temple Mead.

It would be difficult to build at Heathrow, even if it's never under the runways. As many stops from Paddington to Reading as from Reading to Cardiff feels askew.

Paddington to near Bristol is about the same distance as Liverpool to York via Manchester and Leeds. GWR is already fast and focused on long distance travel, unlike the Transpenine 'Express'. More people would be more positively affected by spending this money in the north.
 

Transilien

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I don’t think it’s a good idea to have the HS3 services terminate at Euston because it puts too much pressure on one station and after HS2 is built there can be no expansion to Euston.
 

Mgameing123

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I don’t think it’s a good idea to have the HS3 services terminate at Euston because it puts too much pressure on one station and after HS2 is built there can be no expansion to Euston.
HS3 would most likely terminate at Paddington.
 

Mgameing123

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Yes, a lot more underground running, including a cavern station in central Bristol and many emergency exits. A simpler option could be to come above ground and join the regular lines (Keynsham), use the widest platforms possible at Temple Mead, dive underwater from Clevedon to Peterstone, and onto Cardiff. If Newport is critical, then perhaps Bristol Parkway is better than Temple Mead.

It would be difficult to build at Heathrow, even if it's never under the runways. As many stops from Paddington to Reading as from Reading to Cardiff feels askew.

Paddington to near Bristol is about the same distance as Liverpool to York via Manchester and Leeds. GWR is already fast and focused on long distance travel, unlike the Transpenine 'Express'. More people would be more positively affected by spending this money in the north.
Well Heathrow and OOC will and are some major transport hubs.
 

PTR 444

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If I was doing this, I’d run the line from Heathrow to a triangle junction west of Basingstoke with a spur to Southampton. I’d then run the mainline northwest via Andover and Devizes before skirting south of Bath to reach Bristol.

In addition to direct London services, this arrangement would also allow high speed trains to operate between Southampton and Bristol/Cardiff.
 

cle

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Something like:

Paddington (current terminus) - in tunnel - Heathrow Central - join GWML west of Slough.

might be more realistic, as part of a 'six tracking' exercise. With a stop, I can't imagine it'd be faster to Reading than today. But this is needed more.

The legacy fasts could be used for a whole new tranche of semi-fast Crossrail or HEx/Padd terminating services. Things like Oxford could stay there, add Slough back, and expand longer distance out of this tunneled route.

This would gobble HEx up, other than T5 which could go to Crossrail. It might also be an option towards Basingstoke (legacy or direct HS3)
 

Tomos y Tanc

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This is the ultimate crayonista thread but I'll play!

Basically, there are two problems that need dealing with. One is the congestion between Reading and Paddington, largely caused by the Elizabeth Line. The other is the very poor connectivity between Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Bristol TM.

The problems caused by the first are self-evident while the latter hinders the creation of a single Severnside economy - a situation not too disimilar to the one Northern Powerhouse Rail was designed to solve.

I don't see why you need to go the "full HS3" to tackle those issues. The curent Reading - South Wales route (via Parkway) is perfectly adequate as is the route from Reading to Temple Meads. It's the problems at either end that need sorting.
 

Topological

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This is the ultimate crayonista thread but I'll play!

Basically, there are two problems that need dealing with. One is the congestion between Reading and Paddington, largely caused by the Elizabeth Line. The other is the very poor connectivity between Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Bristol TM.

The problems caused by the first are self-evident while the latter hinders the creation of a single Severnside economy - a situation not too disimilar to the one Northern Powerhouse Rail was designed to solve.

I don't see why you need to go the "full HS3" to tackle those issues. The curent Reading - South Wales route (via Parkway) is perfectly adequate as is the route from Reading to Temple Meads. It's the problems at either end that need sorting.
Some further grade separation at Didcot, Swindon and Bristol Parkway could really speed things up. Bristol Parkway into Bristol would not need too much more work now it is 4 track, just needs the wires.

Whether a longer-term replacement for the Severn Tunnel is needed is a good question. It IS tempting so that the current tunnel can handle a metro service, but that should not be the expensive item to stop the proposal.

Getting Cardiff Central itself sorted would also be a priority for any scheme.

I do agree that the Severnside cities should work together, but politically I cannot see them ever doing so. Cardiff and Bristol have both hidden their airports far from the other, whilst the M4 is a complete disaster.
 

Irascible

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If I was doing this, I’d run the line from Heathrow to a triangle junction west of Basingstoke with a spur to Southampton. I’d then run the mainline northwest via Andover and Devizes before skirting south of Bath to reach Bristol.

In addition to direct London services, this arrangement would also allow high speed trains to operate between Southampton and Bristol/Cardiff.
I might even take that line to a triangular junction at I guess somewhere north of Taunton to join a Birmingham- Exeter line - Southampton-Bristol-Brum-north would be usefully fast still, and I think southwest-London still too.
 

brad465

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If you're going to build this, then make it run parallel to the M4 for almost the entire length (with tunnels or slight route deviations for really tricky bits). Goes through or close to the key destinations proposed and avoids serious NIMBY objections (there's already a bloody motorway there). The big mistake with HS2 was not making it follow the M40 and M6, in the same way HS1 is next to the M2 and M20 when not running underground through London or under the Thames.
 

PTR 444

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If you're going to build this, then make it run parallel to the M4 for almost the entire length (with tunnels or slight route deviations for really tricky bits). Goes through or close to the key destinations proposed and avoids serious NIMBY objections (there's already a bloody motorway there). The big mistake with HS2 was not making it follow the M40 and M6, in the same way HS1 is next to the M2 and M20 when not running underground through London or under the Thames.
I doubt HS2 could have followed the M40 due to the sharp kink between J8 & J9 and the sensitive area around Otmoor, which caused a lot of opposition during that motorway’s construction.

Much of the M4 between Reading and Swindon is now within the North Wessex Downs AONB anyway. Not sure if exemptions can be made for construction next to already existing infrastructure.
 
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Another way this could have been done, would be to have four tracked HS2 from Euston as far as about Amersham, and then branch off to the west, joining the GWML near Didcot. Then four tracking Didcot to Swindon, increasing the line speed of this section and building new stations for the towns/villages, before continuing on the classic lines beyond Swindon.
This is a much better idea IMO
 
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You realize just how far away Amersham is from Didcot right?
Well, yes, but the whole discussion is about building a new long distance line. Amersham to Didcot isn’t as far as London to Bristol…

My thought process was that if building two lines west out of London, it would be easier to build and run them as one and split (interested to know if this is the case). (A little south of) Amersham would be a good place as it is roughly as far north as the GWML goes (after it heads north west from Reading to Didcot). Mind you, this is only the result of a cursory glance on a map, without careful consideration of local geography etc. and this ship has already sailed now, and no HS3 plans are on the cards anyway…
 

HSTEd

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I've thought about this a lot, probably more than is reasonable if I am honest.

I think there is relatively little point of going to Reading - even with freight sharing the GWML and a future increase in Crossrail traffic, I don't think there is going to be a shortage of capacity to Reading.
High speed rail wouldn't really provide that much journey time advantage in any case.

Personally I would prefer a Shinkansen style route running London-High Wycombe-Oxford-Swindon-Bristol.

Even if the trains stopped at all three intermediate stations they'd still make Bristol in about an hour.
Beyond Bristol you probably need a new tunnel or bridge to cross the Severn. If a bridge you'd probably go four track and dump the Severn Tunnel once and for all (to escape the maintenance burden).

If you use the existing approach into Bristol from the North and have the high speed line go through the junction near Parkway, you'd probably want an alignment between Magor and Chittering.
 
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