HST Power Car pairings

[The exile]

I suspect the answers are going to be "how long is a piece of string?", however - here goes. Once the idea that HST sets were "married for life" was abandoned, how fluid were the power car pairings? Other than failures, were power cars swapped out for any other reason than Exams - and at what sort of intervals?
Put it another way: If power car A was observed paired with power car B at 09.00 and again at 18.00 the same day, it's as near as possible a cast-iron certainty that they were also paired at 14.00 that day. Guessing also that if they were observed paired on May 19th and 21st, it's pretty certain that they were together on the 20th - how far could you push that assumption?

 

[150219]

I would say that it's a reasonable assumption that if the same power car pairing were seen at different ends of the same day, they would be the same in the middle of the day. It's also likely that they would be the same on the example you use of May 20th. I recall seeing light power cars often running around at Bristol T.M., which were presumably being turned around for work at St. Phillips Marsh HSTD.

"How far could you push that assumption?". Only as far as evidence goes I would say. I wouldn't like to assume that in the absence of anything to the contrary that the same formation would still be the case on May 29th. Operating similar formations with the top and tail locos led to some being removed, exchanged and put back again at the same end within a few days.

 

[irish_rail]

In my experience at Laira, you could get power cars swapped out after a day or two, similarly you could get pairings lasting up to several weeks. Exams, failures and faults, and needing certain PCs to end at certain depots all played a part. There was also a feeling some foremen at Laira liked to swap power cars about just to keep the shunters and drivers busy (no names mentioned lol).

 

[Western Sunset]

I suspect the answers are going to be "how long is a piece of string?", however - here goes. Once the idea that HST sets were "married for life" was abandoned, how fluid were the power car pairings? Other than failures, were power cars swapped out for any other reason than Exams - and at what sort of intervals?
Put it another way: If power car A was observed paired with power car B at 09.00 and again at 18.00 the same day, it's as near as possible a cast-iron certainty that they were also paired at 14.00 that day. Guessing also that if they were observed paired on May 19th and 21st, it's pretty certain that they were together on the 20th - how far could you push that assumption?

I'd say that your assumption would be near enough 100%. Can't think of any reason to swap a power car mid-
diagram, then put it back into the formation the same day.

 

[Irascible]

Did Laira/OOC try and keep 002 and 003 together for a while? I had an oddly large number of journeys with those two - I don't know how many because the only reason I remember at all is those numbers jumping out when I was walking down the platform at Paddington.

 

[Harvester]

When was the ‘married for life’ concept abandoned? Looking back at my 1984 notebook most of the HST sightings show the correct power car and set formations! On 29/5/84 I travelled from Birmingham to Derby by HST on set 253044, with power cars 43169+43170 which had been in service for 3 years by that date. On 15/10/84 I had 43170+43033 on a run from Bristol to Swindon, with 43170 by then separated from it’s long lasting partner!

 

[Taunton]

When was the ‘married for life’ concept abandoned? Looking back at my 1984 notebook most of the HST sightings show the correct power car and set formations! On 29/5/84 I travelled from Birmingham to Derby by HST on set 253044, with power cars 43169+43170 which had been in service for 3 years by that date. On 15/10/84 I had 43170+43033 on a run from Bristol to Swindon, with 43170 by then separated from it’s long lasting partner!

Pretty soon on the ECML. Modern Railways (it may have been Roger Ford personally) went to Bounds Green one night about 12 months into full service, and the article commented on exactly this. Not just the power cars but the carriage rakes as well. It was such that they had got their own class 08 for the shunting, with couplings adapted to handle the HST cars. On the night of their visit it was reforming sets for various issues, one got the impression this was mainly an overnight activity.

Can't comment on the Western, though it was a strange feature of their previous generation of mechanical dmus, mostly 3-car sets, that the power cars, as delivered, stayed together very long term, often still paired up 20 or more years later, but the trailers, while usually of the same batch, were completely switched around. No other region did this with their mechanical cars. Maybe this is where the 'paired long term' approach was first thought up.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Western Region did have a couple of "spare" HST power cars with no unit number on the front that were used to deputise for power cars that were out of service for some reason or other. But I don't think it was more than two or tghree years before you started seeing WER HSTs with different unit numbers at each end.

The WR DMMUs could occasionally be seen with a single-unit deputising for a power car in a 3-car set.

 

[irish_rail]

Did Laira/OOC try and keep 002 and 003 together for a while? I had an oddly large number of journeys with those two - I don't know how many because the only reason I remember at all is those numbers jumping out when I was walking down the platform at Paddington.

That I don't know, however I do know that 43002 in later years was very very common on the B and H route, UNTIL it got its blue and yellow repaint, after which a concerted effort was made to keep it on the "northern" routes and away from the B and H. Make of that what you will.

 

[Rover]

The Western Region did have a couple of "spare" HST power cars with no unit number on the front that were used to deputise for power cars that were out of service for some reason or other. But I don't think it was more than two or tghree years before you started seeing WER HSTs with different unit numbers at each end.

Yes they realised that the spare cars were not accumulating much mileage so to the even mileage out they were used more often. The same applied later to the NE/SW power cars which rarely got up to 125mph which then began to work Paddington services whilst former GW power cars appeared on NE/SW diagrams.

 

[nw1]

When was the ‘married for life’ concept abandoned? Looking back at my 1984 notebook most of the HST sightings show the correct power car and set formations! On 29/5/84 I travelled from Birmingham to Derby by HST on set 253044, with power cars 43169+43170 which had been in service for 3 years by that date. On 15/10/84 I had 43170+43033 on a run from Bristol to Swindon, with 43170 by then separated from it’s long lasting partner!

I'm fairly sure by a little later (1986) it had already been abandoned on the Western. Indeed I seem to remember that in 1984 there were a fair few non-adjacent formations.

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure many of the 253xxx set numbers had already gone by 1984.

 

[Richard Scott]

Did Laira/OOC try and keep 002 and 003 together for a while? I had an oddly large number of journeys with those two - I don't know how many because the only reason I remember at all is those numbers jumping out when I was walking down the platform at Paddington.

I believe it was because they were the last two with Valenta engines and were to go for MTU fitment within same time frame.

 

[Davester50]

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure many of the 253xxx set numbers had already gone by 1984.

I might be wrong, but didn't the first of the Executive liveried WR sets have 253xxx numbers?

edit:
To answer my own question, yes, in 1984 pictured below at Cardiff, (not my photo)
Albert Murray's Photo on Flickr

 

[Richard Scott]

I might be wrong, but didn't the first of the Executive liveried WR sets have 253xxx numbers?

edit:
To answer my own question, yes, in 1984 pictured below at Cardiff, (not my photo)
Albert Murray's Photo on Flickr

I remember some carrying 253xxx numbers in 1986 despite fixed formations having been long disbanded.

 

[Davester50]

I remember some carrying 253xxx numbers in 1986 despite fixed formations having been long disbanded.

Now I find this an interesting photo (again not mine) from Dave Bower on Flickr of 43125 with a 253xxx nose end number, but in Swallow!
253028 in Swallow

 

[32475]

I remember that soon after the HSTs were introduced there was a proposal that the ‘married’ power cars should have appropriate names for example ‘Samson’ paired with ‘Delilah’ and ‘Queen Victoria’ paired with ‘Prince Albert’ or ‘Fred Astaire’ paired with ‘Ginger Rogers’ (I’ve plucked the names out of the air just to illustrate the point).
It was soon realised that once one power car got taken out of service and the other was jumbled up with another then some very odd power car pairings would result. It’s a shame the idea never went ahead because some very odd or amusing pairings would inevitably have resulted.

 

[Richard Scott]

Now I find this an interesting photo (again not mine) from Dave Bower on Flickr of 43125 with a 253xxx nose end number, but in Swallow!
253028 in Swallow

Now I'm going to have to delve into my old photos!

 

[Irascible]

I believe it was because they were the last two with Valenta engines and were to go for MTU fitment within same time frame.

This would have been mid-late 80s & through a lot of the 90s. Maybe some service cycles just lined up with when I travelled...

 

[nw1]

Interesting.

I do remember at the time noting the power car numbers but never the set numbers, so there must have been a reason for that.

Perhaps because I noticed that the power cars were often non-consecutive and therefore while the set numbers may have been there, I didn't take notice of them.

Presumably though 253028 was a specific set that was kept together due to its IC livery. I do vaguely remember some of the late 4312x power cars having early IC livery, come to think of it.

 

[Richard Scott]

This would have been mid-late 80s & through a lot of the 90s. Maybe some service cycles just lined up with when I travelled...

Ah OK, nowhere near the mid 2000s that I was thinking of!

 

[Western Sunset]

I think the first Executive ones appeared in Sept '83. I recall the set being assembled at the back of Litchurch Lane.

 

[43096]

Presumably though 253028 was a specific set that was kept together due to its IC livery. I do vaguely remember some of the late 4312x power cars having early IC livery, come to think of it.

43125/126 (253028) and 43129/130 (253030) were the early repaints into Executive livery. 43151 was also painted as a spare power car for the two sets.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I remember that soon after the HSTs were introduced there was a proposal that the ‘married’ power cars should have appropriate names for example ‘Samson’ paired with ‘Delilah’ and ‘Queen Victoria’ paired with ‘Prince Albert’ or ‘Fred Astaire’ paired with ‘Ginger Rogers’ (I’ve plucked the names out of the air just to illustrate the point).
It was soon realised that once one power car got taken out of service and the other was jumbled up with another then some very odd power car pairings would result. It’s a shame the idea never went ahead because some very odd or amusing pairings would inevitably have resulted.

Michael Palin points out that "some wag" suggested this in Confessions of a Trainspotter, 1980!

"You might see Laurel and Pollocks on the 10 o'clock"

 

[Sun Chariot]

I might be wrong, but didn't the first of the Executive liveried WR sets have 253xxx numbers?

edit:
To answer my own question, yes, in 1984 pictured below at Cardiff, (not my photo)
Albert Murray's Photo on Flickr

Yes, "initial InterCity livery" sets 253028 and 253030 carried unit numbers on cab ends.
I saw others, too; I have a photo of 43003 at Temple Meads, in "standard I.C." (painted grey over bodyside grille), bearing 253001 on its end.
I'll dig out my old 35mm photos as I'm certain I have others.

 

[jbqfc]

43125 had 253 numbers a least up until 12/09/87 as my photo shows

43125

built 1976 to 1982 at crewe works class 43 inter-city 125 high speed train power car HST 43125 YORK

www.flickr.com

John

 

[Helvellyn]

I remember that soon after the HSTs were introduced there was a proposal that the ‘married’ power cars should have appropriate names for example ‘Samson’ paired with ‘Delilah’ and ‘Queen Victoria’ paired with ‘Prince Albert’ or ‘Fred Astaire’ paired with ‘Ginger Rogers’ (I’ve plucked the names out of the air just to illustrate the point).
It was soon realised that once one power car got taken out of service and the other was jumbled up with another then some very odd power car pairings would result. It’s a shame the idea never went ahead because some very odd or amusing pairings would inevitably have resulted.

The closest that I can recall were 43026/43027 (253013) being named City of Westminster and Westminster Abbey respectively as well as 43125/43126 (253028) being named Merchant Venturer and City of Bristol respectively.

 

[irish_rail]

43125 had 253 numbers a least up until 12/09/87 as my photo shows

43125

built 1976 to 1982 at crewe works class 43 inter-city 125 high speed train power car HST 43125 YORK

www.flickr.com

John

Pretty sure 43171 also had similar.

 

[co-tr-paul]

43125 was initially a spare vehicle
There were a few others but without checking old abcs can't remember.

 

[Commoner]

43125 was initially a spare vehicle
There were a few others but without checking old abcs can't remember.

I think you maybe looking at an incorrect list. From new in June 1979 43125 along with 43126 were the allocated power cars of set 253 028.

In terms of livery this pair were first to carry the experimental version of Executive livery in September 1983. Both carried 253 028 below the windscreen. They both received the final version of Executive in April 1985 but without set numbers below the windscreen. The WR power cars initially repainted in the final version of Executive from March 1985 onwards didn’t have their old set number’s applied. Then for some reason, from September 85 onwards the set numbers started to reappear again on WR allocated PCs. Those on 43033, 43135/6 being the first.

43125 was an early recipient of swallow, as was 43171, both of which carried their set numbers. Derby Works didn’t do many more overhauls and repaints thereafter. When the WR took over their CEM overhauls in 1988 the application of set numbers to swallow liveried power cars ceased.

In terms of when the WR ceased trying to keep its power cars on allocated sets, that appears to have occurred in May 1984. That month saw the first major reshuffle of the internal fleet with some of the original power cars and sets from the first WR order being reallocated to Laira. Interestingly, Old Oak, which from my observations over those early years was better at keeping sets and PCs together, still tried to turn sets out with their correct PCs further on into 84. Another thing to note is that from the beginning of 1985 the WR ceased returning trailer sets to works with their originally allocated power cars.

Finally further up thread there was mention of naming power cars in partnered pairs as in Gilbert and Sullivan for instance. This was never considered by BR officially but was the subject of a humorous letter that appeared in the Railway Magazine in late 77/early 78.

Hope this helps.

 

[Magdalia]

43125 was initially a spare vehicle

The books I have give the spares as 43120-124.