Huddersfield - London via Manchester.

[mnolan83]

Hi,

I wonder if you can help me.
I had an incident this morning when travelling from Huddersfield - London on the connecting service from Manchester Piccadilly to London.

The fare booked was a standard anytime return at £230.00

I was advised by the train manager that I shouldn’t be using this ticket via Manchester although as far as I am aware it is perfectly valid to do so and something I have used many times in the past. To my knowledge this ticket is valid to travel via Manchester / Leeds/ Wakefield. I was not charged for a new ticket.

I believe it was a fault with the train manager but I would just like clarification.

Thanks in advance

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is a mapped route between two routeing points, so I believe it should be valid.

However, for some inexplicable reason, there is a higher priced VIA MANCHESTER fare, which for an Anytime return is an eye-watering £359. This is probably related to VTWC price-gouging at Manchester, where the Anytime Return to London is priced at £329, £100 more than the Huddersfield ANY PERMITTED ticket.

 

[OwlMan]

It is a mapped route between two routeing points, so I believe it should be valid.

However, for some inexplicable reason, there is a higher priced VIA MANCHESTER fare, which for an Anytime return is an eye-watering £359. This is probably related to VTWC price-gouging at Manchester, where the Anytime Return to London is priced at £329, £100 more than the Huddersfield ANY PERMITTED ticket.

Correct it is valid - the National Routeing Guide is specific about this

If the fare for the journey shows no route or is described as "Any Permitted", a customer may use any of the routes listed in the Guide, subject to any time and/or operator restrictions that apply to the ticket held.

Also repeated later confirming that it is only for routes NOT listed in the Roureing Guide that the fares are considered.

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

 

[mnolan83]

Correct it is valid - the National Routeing Guide is specific about this


Also repeated later confirming that it is only for routes NOT listed in the Roureing Guide that the fares are considered.

Thanks, is there anywhere I can get this in writing.

I would just something for the next time I travel I can show the train manager if I get questioned.

I have emailed ATOC regarding this as well.

thanks

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can get NRE to print you an itinerary via Manchester for the £230 ticket. That's probably the easiest way of getting something.

If you book online in advance you could also get reservation coupons.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Correct it is valid - the National Routeing Guide is specific about this

Yes, I thought so, which is why I'm at such a loss about the existence of the superfluous VIA MANCHESTER fare.

I expect the guard was complaining because the Huddersfield ticket undercuts the Manchester ticket by £100...

I wonder how long it will be, now it's been mentioned here, before VTWC and VTEC get together and change the routeing of the ANY PERMITTED ticket to VIA WAKEFIELD or some such nonsense.

 

[mnolan83]

You can get NRE to print you an itinerary via Manchester for the £230 ticket. That's probably the easiest way of getting something.

If you book online in advance you could also get reservation coupons.

Hi,

Previously we had seat reservations booked via Manchester and had those on this occasion.

NRE?

Would ATOC be likely to put this in writing or a similar source.

thanks

 

[Tetchytyke]

National Rail Enquiries. I doubt ATOC would confirm this.

 

[mnolan83]

National Rail Enquiries. I doubt ATOC would confirm this.

Thanks,

Is there anything on the national routing guide which can be printed to show this specific route is valid.

thanks again.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you look at the routeing guide, all mapped routes are listed between HUDDERSFIELD GROUP and LONDON GROUP. One of these routes includes travel via Manchester.

However if a guard won't accept a valid itinerary and won't accept seat reservations, they're not going to accept a routeing guide printout either...

 

[MichaelAMW]

Yes, I thought so, which is why I'm at such a loss about the existence of the superfluous VIA MANCHESTER fare.

I expect the guard was complaining because the Huddersfield ticket undercuts the Manchester ticket by £100...

I wonder how long it will be, now it's been mentioned here, before VTWC and VTEC get together and change the routeing of the ANY PERMITTED ticket to VIA WAKEFIELD or some such nonsense.

It's swings and roundabouts with Virgin: whilst their Anytime fares are astonishing their off-peak fares are relatively good value, so in this case the Via Manchester Off-Peak return is cheaper than both the Off-Peak and Super-Off-Peak Any-Permitted fares. The Anytime fare via manchester may indeed be superfluous but the route overall isn't, and presumably they would always provide the full range of fares via any route offered in spite of the fact specific ones would almost never be bought.

 

[yorkie]

I was advised by the train manager that I shouldn’t be using this ticket via Manchester...

Unfortunately Virgin Train do not always provide adequate training to their Train Managers.

although as far as I am aware it is perfectly valid to do so and something I have used many times in the past. To my knowledge this ticket is valid to travel via Manchester / Leeds/ Wakefield.

Absolutely valid. The DfT would need to give their approval for the withdrawal of via Manchester as a permitted route, and no such approval has been given. I would not expect it to be either.

I was not charged for a new ticket.

If via Manchester was not permitted, you would not have been charged for a new ticket, but instead for an excess fare, priced at half the difference between the fare you paid and the lowest priced via Manchester ticket valid for the time you were travelling.

I believe it was a fault with the train manager but I would just like clarification.

The Train Manager was incorrect, there is no doubt about that.

As there are several incidents of this nature, I think you should be bringing this to the attention of the ORR/DfT.

 

[mnolan83]

Hi,

That's all really helpful.

Yorkie, do you know anywhere where I could written confirmation of that.

From Virgin perhaps.

thanks

Matt

 

[gray1404]

Might I also add that was well as contacting the DfT and ORR, you should also make a complaint to Virgin Trains about this, and if their reply is not up to standard then take your complaint to Passenger Focus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder if it was the same badly trained (make it up as you go along) Train Manager who issued the UPFN on the Manchester - Euston route the day before.

 

[miami]

Looking into this, I notice that ticket sites get slightly confused over Huddersfield via Manchester.

These are the default journeys thrown up:
HUD-MAN 0258-0358, MAN-EUS 0505-0729
HUD-MAN 0411-0511, MAN-EUS 0555-0808
HUD-MAN 0526-0557. MAN-EUS 0610-0823
HUD-MAN 0611-0645. MAN-EUS 0700-0900

The 0258 and 0411 show up as the "Via Manchester" fare, the "Any Permitted" fare does not show up on these.

The only explanation I can see is the departure before 0430 confusing the issue.

 

[Paul Kelly]

At a very quick look, it's because journeys that go via Crewe are not on a permitted route from Huddersfield to London, but they are from Manchester to London - so split routeing at Manchester on the "VIA MANCHESTER" fare makes them valid. Are all the "VIA MANCHESTER" fares for journeys via Crewe?

 

[miami]

At a very quick look, it's because journeys that go via Crewe are not on a permitted route from Huddersfield to London, but they are from Manchester to London - so split routeing at Manchester on the "VIA MANCHESTER" fare makes them valid. Are all the "VIA MANCHESTER" fares for journeys via Crewe?

Doesn't seem to be
08:11 - 08:45 HUD-MAN
08:55 - 11:08 MAN-EUS (via SPT, WML and CRE)

09:12 - 09:45 HUD-MAN
09:55 - 12:05 MAN-EUS (via SPT, WML and CRE)

Both show up with a £115 anytime single (and presumably an anytime return)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
HUD-London

Valid routes are
Huddersfield Group London Group GM+MA LY+EE LY+ER NP+KY SH+EE SH+ER
SY SY+PS+EE SY+PS+ER TP+EE TP+ER WK+EE
WK+ER WK+PS+EE WK+PS+ER WK+SY WY+EE WY+ER
WY+SY


The very first route, GM+MA, seems to cover it. GM (Routes in Greater Manchester) covers Huddersfield to Manchester to Wilmslow (via Stockport or not) to Crewe to London, MA covers "London to Greater Manchester" covers Manchester to Wilmslow (via Stockport or not) to Crewe to London.

Also seems to cover "Via Warrington" too - indeed, both via Glazebrook and walking

Travel by Leaving From To Arriving
Train 07:31 Huddersfield [HUD] Warrington Central [WAC] 08:30 Stops
Walk 08:35 Warrington Central [WAC] Warrington Bank Quay [WBQ] 08:50 Stops
Train 09:20 Warrington Bank Quay [WBQ] London Euston [EUS] 11:14 Stops

And via Earlestown
Travel by Leaving From To Arriving
Train 05:26 Huddersfield [HUD] Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] 05:57 Stops
Train 06:50 Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] Warrington Bank Quay [WBQ] 07:24 Stops
Train 07:39 Warrington Bank Quay [WBQ] Crewe [CRE] 07:58 Stops
Train 08:23 Crewe [CRE] London Euston [EUS] 10:01 Stops

From my very limited understanding of the guide though, it seems that a Huddersfield - London ticket would not cover travel on the Denton Flyer.

 

[neilmc]

Hmm. If I request an anytime single from Huddersfield to London Euston the website offers me one for £115 changing in Manchester. If I request an anytime single from Manchester to London on the same train the cost is £166.

Haven't we just exposed a massive cost-saving loophole on one of the premier inter-city business routes in the country or is there anything prohibiting you from starting short on an anytime ticket?

 

[miami]

Hmm. If I request an anytime single from Huddersfield to London Euston the website offers me one for £115 changing in Manchester. If I request an anytime single from Manchester to London on the same train the cost is £166.

Haven't we just exposed a massive cost-saving loophole on one of the premier inter-city business routes in the country or is there anything prohibiting you from starting short on an anytime ticket?

Shhhh

In reality you may well get grief for travelling via this route, most people on £166 fares are on business-paid fares, or at the very least can claim it as an offset against tax (so in reality the saving is about £25, not £51), and the extra hassle won't be worth it to them.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The very first route, GM+MA, seems to cover it. GM (Routes in Greater Manchester) covers Huddersfield to Manchester to Wilmslow

Aha; I think this is it. Those early morning Transpennine Express trains go from Huddersfield to Manchester via Hebden Bridge. This is not covered on map GM. The only map that seems to cover it is LY, which gets you as far as Wilmslow. So Crewe is the point at which you depart from the mapped routes, but its not because of going via Crewe, rather it's because of the earlier diversion via Hebden Bridge. You'd imagine this should really be included on one of the other maps.

 

[miami]

So it's the route taken, rather than the specific stops on that route?

I'm no expert in the routing guide. Would a valid route on map GM+MA for Huddersfield-London be

Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester-Wilmslow-Stockport-Stoke-Crewe-Stafford-Wallsall-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-Nuneaton-Rugby-Northampton-Bletchly-Watford-Willesden-Euston?

Which seems rather roundabout, but doesn't seem to involve any doubling back.

Or do you need to fares-check at each route to ensure you're always going in a "cheaper" direction?

How do the rules ensure that you can't, on a single ticket, do

Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester-Wilmslow-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton

Then by non-railways means travel to Stockport

Then do Stockport-Stoke-Rugeley-Nuneaton-Rugby-London

 

[Paul Kelly]

Would a valid route on map GM+MA for Huddersfield-London be

Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester-Wilmslow-Stockport-Stoke-Crewe-Stafford-Wallsall-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-Nuneaton-Rugby-Northampton-Bletchly-Watford-Willesden-Euston?

As far as I can see no, because you would be doubling back through at least Cheadle Hulme, Longport and Kidsgrove. It's not just routeing points you may not double back through, but rather any station. Some doublebacks are allowed/tolerated by online journey planners as the stations are not stopped at and are not compulsory timing points, and some stations are grouped in to routeing groups to purposely allow doubling back for interchange purposes.