Idea: Could the Gatwick Express be diverted into Old Oak Common instead of Victoria?

[eddp]

Hi all,

I've had a look for a post on this topic but couldn't see anything, but if it's already been done to death then please ignore!

I was idly wondering if once Crossrail and HS2 are serving Old Oak Common, whether it would make sense to divert the Gatwick Express there (via the West London line) rather than sending it to Victoria? Victoria would still have a 4tph fast service to the airport, and it would provide a one-change service from Gatwick to Heathrow and avoiding the M25, one change from HS2 ("the North") to Gatwick airport, and give easier access to the Paddington area (although it might reduce patronage on the Reading-Gatwick trains). It might also, depending on ticketing and how the trains run, open up more of Sussex to HS2 services by removing the cross-London tube transfer. Thameslink might also reduce the patronage of Gatwick Express (passengers from Stevenage/Peterborough/Cambridge etc changing at Finsbury Park for Thameslink rather than for the Victoria line, etc)

I'm sure there are a million reasons it wouldn't work though (is it planned to move the electrification changeover on the WLL to Old Oak Common station? Lack of paths?) but would be interested to hear any thoughts.

And as I say, if there is already a thread on this, sorry!

 

[NSE]

One of the biggest problems (which is the reason the MK service is all stations on this part) is the junction to join the WLL is from the slow BML lines. So the GatEx would have to run slow line from East Croydon or cross the lines south of Wandsworth Common. Also, I don't know how straight forward the connection is from leaving the WLL to the GWML. I don't know much but i don't think it's in great condition after the cessasation of XC services. Could be way out though.


Nice idea though.

 

[Sunset route]

Gatwick and Heathrow will one change away from each other when the Crossrail interchange at Farringdon opens with 8 Thameslink and 6 Crossrail to chose from.

 

[tsr]

It's important to remember that Gatwick Express is still used by a lot of tourists for whom knowledge of London may be limited. Diverting GX to Old Oak Common, which they will never have heard of and which is (in the nicest possible way) not handy for tourist attractions, vice Victoria, which appears to still be the destination of choice in the guidebooks, would simply lose custom from a train service which would hang by a thread if it was any emptier!

I know OOC is obviously due to have something of a refresh over the coming years, in terms of rail passenger facilities, but just to get it up to the level of tourist awareness as St Pancras will take some doing, let alone Victoria, which really is a very desirable destination to serve if you want to capture certain markets.

Gatwick and Heathrow will one change away from each other when the Crossrail interchange at Farringdon opens with 8 Thameslink and 6 Crossrail to chose from.

Precisely this, too. I know it's not the biggest station in the world, but I suggest Farringdon will be an incredibly well-used interchange for cross-London links. I think Thameslink has been so tortuously slow on its journeys through South London for so long that it will be suddenly more popular when people realise the comparative speed and smoothness of the route via London Bridge once again. Previously, on fast trains, London Bridge to Gatwick and vice versa could actually be rather quicker than GX, depending on nuances of the network's congestion that day. Add in a short hop up to Farringdon and you've got an effective portal into the central East-West link across London which adds potential to the areas that the Tube connecting with GX at Victoria serves less efficiently.

One only has to hope that the platform space will cope. There are many people who enter London from the north and south who currently struggle with access onto the Central Line (passengers using routes into Liverpool Street excepted), and Crossrail will provide a more accessible route to all sorts of places which have so far involved an extra change of trains, or a bit of a walk. Then there's the Heathrow / Gatwick options which you so correctly point out.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You've also got the coach station at Victoria with all its coach connections and the tube for many of the main terminus stations. I don't know what the bus connections are like from Victoria to the main parts of London where all the hotels are

 

[Joe Paxton]

You've also got the coach station at Victoria with all its coach connections and the tube for many of the main terminus stations. I don't know what the bus connections are like from Victoria to the main parts of London where all the hotels are

There was talk of the coach station moving elsewhere, because property developers were (of course) interested in the land. Westminster City Council seemed to be taking the lead on this idea in concert with a developer / developers but it's gone a bit quiet of late. Whilst one could say Victoria isn't the right place for a coach station serving central London, I suspect much the same could be said for any of the alternative locations that might be proposed.

Anyway I'm veering a bit off topic - I doubt there's a huge number of people making Gatwick-train-coach connections through Victoria, and those who are might be less likely to be travelling on GatEx.

However on the broader point that tsr raises above, Victoria is indeed a very desirable and popular termini for tourists and visitors heading for central London - you only need to walk through the concourse in say the mid morning or lunchtime in the summer to see this!

 

[PermitToTravel]

a train service which would hang by a thread if it was any emptier!

You've got it - a cable car! The Airport Airline

 

[hwl]

GatEx also provides 2tph Victoria to Brighton fasts (first stop Gatwick then most stops to Brighton) which is well used by commuters so no easy diversion of those services.

Post a potential Windmill Bridge Jn and East Croydon rebuild in CP6 you could then easily stop the GatEx at East Croydon (probably easier to do than not) which would make the existing loadings far higher.

 

[Ianno87]

If it were operationally simple, a regular, fast service from Old Oak Common to Gatwick Airport (calling East Croydon) would be a no-brainer post-HS2.

Unfortunately, it will never be operationally straightforward short of some colossal grade separated junction at Clapham Junction.

Next best alternative is to better link (somehow) the HS2 platforms at Euston to the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras, which will have at least 4tph reasonably fast to Gatwick.

 

[jopsuk]

(passengers from Stevenage/Peterborough/Cambridge etc changing at Finsbury Park for Thameslink rather than for the Victoria line, etc)

No changing will be needed

 

[Busaholic]

It's on the lips of every tourist to this country - what do you want to see when you're in London? The Tower of London? Westminster Abbey? St Paul's Cathedral? Oxford Street? Buck House? Nah, take me to Old Oak Common, and don't spare the horses. I don't think.

 

[tbtc]

I've had a look for a post on this topic but couldn't see anything, but if it's already been done to death then please ignore!

...

And as I say, if there is already a thread on this, sorry!

I don't think I've ever seen a thread on this, so it's a refreshingly different topic - I'm all for it.

Personally I'm not a fan of the way that some Airports (and Airport passengers) get to lord it over other stations on these lines - looking at how some suburban stations on the way to Manchester Airport/ Heathrow/ Stansted/ Gatwick have seen suppressed levels of service due to the need to maintain so many paths for limited/non-stop services to the Airports...

...BUT, if we are going to have a Gatwick Express then I'd be in favour of using Gatwick Express paths to offer something a bit different, rather than just providing a regular service to Victoria (when other Southern services on the BML can provide a regular service from Gatwick to Victoria with minimal stops).

At least running it to OOC would offer something different, would open up some interesting cross-London routes.

I'm not saying I'm all for the idea (how do you untangle lines at Clapham Junction without taking a few years and a few billion quid?) but it's nice to debate something different on here and it's worthy of more consideration than worrying about villages in Shropshire (or whatever other re-openings are flavour of the week).

Thanks eddp for an interesting idea.

 

[43096]

It's on the lips of every tourist to this country - what do you want to see when you're in London? The Tower of London? Westminster Abbey? St Paul's Cathedral? Oxford Street? Buck House? Nah, take me to Old Oak Common, and don't spare the horses. I don't think.

That response shows you clearly haven't engaged brain.

The Gatwick-OOC idea is a good one (unlike most on here!!), even if actually achieving it would likely be thwarted by practical considerations. If it were to happen, then I'd think about diverting the Gatwick starters to OOC and leave the Brighton-Gatwick-Victoria service as now.

For the hard of understanding, having trains to both Gatwick and Heathrow interchanging with HS2 at OOC is the reason behind the idea. Once HS2 is completed that would give large areas of the country much easier access to the airports, which could have the effect of reducing UK domestic air travel and free capacity at Heathrow and Gatwick for international travel.

 

[MotCO]

There was talk of the coach station moving elsewhere, because property developers were (of course) interested in the land. Westminster City Council seemed to be taking the lead on this idea in concert with a developer / developers but it's gone a bit quiet of late.

I seem to recall that this site would be required for Crossrail 2 (if and when it takes off)

 

[Starmill]

It would be a far better idea just to equalise the prices of the rail services between London and Gatwick Airport, and thereby spread the loadings more evenly. I would expect that to increase both total revenue and passenger numbers, and improve onboard conditions where most needed. In the long term I would also suggest that running all 4 Gatwick Express services through to Brighton might be a good move, although it depends on the need to balance capacity. It may not be a good idea to run 4 or 8 car Gatwick Express services to Brighton.

 

[Tio Terry]

Perhaps Gatwick to Heathrow direct? Why just OOC?

DC to start with, AC from North Pole to Heathrow and the reverse in the opposite direction.

 

[adrock1976]

Picking up on some points already mentioned, having direct trains between Gatwick and Old Oak Common (perhaps future extensions to Heathrow, although may not be necessary due to there being London Crossrail services to Heathrow) would be a good idea if engineering challenges/track layout around the Battersea area could be sorted. Gatwick - Old Oak Common trains would provide High Speed connections to the Midlands and North of England.

Regarding the fare structure with trains to and from Gatwick Airport - Old Oak Common, perhaps a "Route: Via Kensington Olympia" could be introduced, which would be cheaper than the Any Permitted.

Furthermore, as all of the trains from London Terminals to Gatwick Airport are all operated by the same company regardless of what colour or livery the trains are in, it needs to be sorted out properly. The existing muddle of fares were caused by the former Train Operating Companies Gatwick Express (merged into Southern in 2008), and Thameslink/First Capital Connect which got merged with the Southern TOC in 2015. The TOC that operates trains between Gatwick Airport and London Terminals (and northbound to Bedford) are now Govia Thameslink Railway.

It is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers FC have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they started liquidation proceedings after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Charles Green (the same Charles Green who was the self styled "saviour" of Sheffield United, who left them in a worse financial state after he trousered a lot of money out of it) came along and set up Sevco, and applied to be a member of the Scottish FA as a new outfit. This new outfit became The Rangers, Rangers FC 2012, and now presently Rangers International Football Club.

 

[37 418]

Picking up on some points already mentioned, having direct trains between Gatwick and Old Oak Common (perhaps future extensions to Heathrow, although may not be necessary due to there being London Crossrail services to Heathrow) would be a good idea if engineering challenges/track layout around the Battersea area could be sorted. Gatwick - Old Oak Common trains would provide High Speed connections to the Midlands and North of England.

Regarding the fare structure with trains to and from Gatwick Airport - Old Oak Common, perhaps a "Route: Via Kensington Olympia" could be introduced, which would be cheaper than the Any Permitted.

Furthermore, as all of the trains from London Terminals to Gatwick Airport are all operated by the same company regardless of what colour or livery the trains are in, it needs to be sorted out properly. The existing muddle of fares were caused by the former Train Operating Companies Gatwick Express (merged into Southern in 2008), and Thameslink/First Capital Connect which got merged with the Southern TOC in 2015. The TOC that operates trains between Gatwick Airport and London Terminals (and northbound to Bedford) are now Govia Thameslink Railway.

It is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers FC have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they started liquidation proceedings after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Charles Green (the same Charles Green who was the self styled "saviour" of Sheffield United, who left them in a worse financial state after he trousered a lot of money out of it) came along and set up Sevco, and applied to be a member of the Scottish FA as a new outfit. This new outfit became The Rangers, Rangers FC 2012, and now presently Rangers International Football Club.

Your last comment is not only blinkered but not relevant to this forum. It was DAVID MURRAY who screwed Rangers, the rest just finished the job!

So it depends of GTR can take the assets out of the old company/franchise and create a new one ...

 

[xotGD]

Perhaps Gatwick to Heathrow direct? Why just OOC?

DC to start with, AC from North Pole to Heathrow and the reverse in the opposite direction.

This would be good for the poor buggers who end up inadvertently booking an itinerary with a change of airport. Better than a coach or train and tube combo. Even one through train per hour would be good, and would also facilitate connections to Gatwick via Old Oak Common.

 

[Muzer]

No. Where do I start in explaining why this is a bad idea?

OK, let's start with the practical considerations. The West London Line is pretty busy these days, full of stopping services, and very unreliable (just ask anyone who's been on the Southern East Croydon - Milton Keynes service more than a handful of times). It's either going to be crawling along, or going to be having to stop at every station, and will frequently be delayed. Moreover, the East Croydon to Milton Keynes service is a stopping service, so it naturally uses the slow lines. This is good because the junction to Kenny O from the Southern side of Clapham is a flat junction coming off the slow lines followed by a diveunder. However, coming off the fast lines is going to be significantly harder, and having 4tph cross between fasts and slows near Clapham is going to completely ruin capacity that the current East Croydon projects would have carefully created.

And Old Oak Common itself. I guess you're expecting to see a terminus platform built on the North Pole side of the complex (ie where the IEP depot currently is), and presumably new track as well since I believe the current line leads directly into the depot? Either that or a completely new link built from the north side of the WLL (which I'm not convinced local geography would allow). Either that, or the new Old Oak Common station on the West London Line itself would have to have a terminus platform going spare. However it's done, this isn't going to be cheap.

And besides that. Yes, giving Gatwick better links to HS2 would be a nice idea. I'm not denying that. But you're diverting services that, while they're not necessarily full to capacity all the time, are popular with tourists, and help reinforce the idea that Gatwick is a real, serious airport, worthy of their custom; and that train travel is a quick way to get to London (how many tourists would rather get a taxi if they didn't see something advertised as "express"?). These services, as others have pointed out, also provide 2tph express London to Brighton which would otherwise have to be replaced. Frankly, while useful for HS2 and for Heathrow, a service to Old Oak Common isn't good for much else; certainly when you take into account the current services to Victoria and the Thameslink core and what they're good for. It'd be much more useful, in my opinion, to have a moving walkway link from Euston (for HS2) to St. Pancras Low Level (for Thameslink and Gatwick) (I don't know if this is likely to be done anyway should Crossrail 2 go ahead; I haven't looked at the plans for the Euston St. Pancras complex); and have people interchange at Farringdon for Heathrow.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A better way (if the track plans/alignments allow it) would be to extend the tracks from XRail to Gatwick. Don't know if it would be viable to also extend the LU Piccadilly line to Gatwick as well

 

[coppercapped]

A better way (if the track plans/alignments allow it) would be to extend the tracks from XRail to Gatwick. Don't know if it would be viable to also extend the LU Piccadilly line to Gatwick as well

1. Have you looked at a map?
2. Do you know how far you are expecting people to travel on TUBE train?
3. Who would use it?

 

[jopsuk]

A better way (if the track plans/alignments allow it) would be to extend the tracks from XRail to Gatwick. Don't know if it would be viable to also extend the LU Piccadilly line to Gatwick as well

Let me draw you a diagram to end this silly idea:

 

[Busaholic]

Does anyone think that Heathrow Airport, its owners and the food chain it engenders would ever allow such a prospect? They would find eyewatering amounts of money to help 'influence' public opinion (or, rather, that small part that counts) against it if it were to be seen to be gaining traction. Dirty tricks? Positively filthy!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

1. Have you looked at a map?
2. Do you know how far you are expecting people to travel on TUBE train?
3. Who would use it?

Don't forget that the new tube trains are due to come into service from 2023, they've got aircon and by the time that any extension went through the planning process and construction took place, all the old Piccadilly stock will be gone.

It's about 25 miles in a straight line, it would take about 40mins at 40mph, no worse than what it would be travelling by road on a coach, it's going to be mainly people flying out and airport staff who would use it.

In any case any extension to either XRail or the LU Piccadilly line would probably be at least 15-20 years away assuming that such a project ever got authorised. By that time given growth in traffic the demand might be there anyway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You've also got the coach station at Victoria with all its coach connections and the tube for many of the main terminus stations. I don't know what the bus connections are like from Victoria to the main parts of London where all the hotels are

While that is true, I very much doubt that the kind of person who goes to the trouble of finding a cheap (and slow) coach instead of a train to their destination is the kind of person who'll willingly pay the premium rates to use the Gatwick Express instead of the just-as-good but cheaper Southern services.

I would therefore imagine the numbers of people who'll use Gatwick Express to get to the coach station is almost zero.