Ideas for York - Leeds - Manchester improvements

[mike57]

There has been a lot of discussion on here about possible new tunnels between Huddersfield and Manchester as part of major improvements to the York - Manchester route, however given the likely cost and the current economic situation it seems very unlikely that this 'new build' will get beyond planning and discussion in the foreseeable future, and whilst it may continue to form part of long term plans it will always be 'tomorrow'

It looks as though the Dewsbury - Huddersfield upgrade will go ahead, and for the purpose of this discussion I am assuming that end to end electrification is delivered at some point outside any further improvements

So bearing in mind I think Dewsbury - Huddersfield is costed at £1.5B ish what could be acheived with say up to £1B to make some piecemeal improvements to the rest of the route to allow either quicker journeys, more services, or more reliability, with probably more emphasis on more paths and reliability.

I am thinking 'quick wins' that will deliver results fairly quickly, so staying within the current rail corridor boundaries.

My suggestions:

• Restore 4 tracks through Crossgates, to allow fast services to overtake.
• Would it be feasible to restore and reuse one of the Standedge single bores as a bi-directional long loop.
• Would the current track geometery allow higher speeds between Leeds and Morley as well as Stalybridge - Man Vic if signalling/track was improved
• Could Slaithwaite station have 4 tracks without affecting line speeds? It looks to be in the middle of the old 4 track formation at that point.
• Would the 4th Track through Dewsbury be worth a slight reduction in line speed, which I understand would happen if it went back to 4 track.

I know that its going to be regarded as a 'sticking plaster' but the 'proper solution' just doesn't look like it will happen in any realistic time frame

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There has been a lot of discussion on here about possible new tunnels between Huddersfield and Manchester as part of major improvements to the York - Manchester route, however given the likely cost and the current economic situation it seems very unlikely that this 'new build' will get beyond planning and discussion in the foreseeable future, and whilst it may continue to form part of long term plans it will always be 'tomorrow'

It looks as though the Dewsbury - Huddersfield upgrade will go ahead, and for the purpose of this discussion I am assuming that end to end electrification is delivered at some point outside any further improvements

So bearing in mind I think Dewsbury - Huddersfield is costed at £1.5B ish what could be acheived with say up to £1B to make some piecemeal improvements to the rest of the route to allow either quicker journeys, more services, or more reliability, with probably more emphasis on more paths and reliability.

I am thinking 'quick wins' that will deliver results fairly quickly, so staying within the current rail corridor boundaries.

My suggestions:

• Restore 4 tracks through Crossgates, to allow fast services to overtake.
• Would it be feasible to restore and reuse one of the Standedge single bores as a bi-directional long loop.
• Would the current track geometery allow higher speeds between Leeds and Morley as well as Stalybridge - Man Vic if signalling/track was improved
• Could Slaithwaite station have 4 tracks without affecting line speeds? It looks to be in the middle of the old 4 track formation at that point.
• Would the 4th Track through Dewsbury be worth a slight reduction in line speed, which I understand would happen if it went back to 4 track.

I know that its going to be regarded as a 'sticking plaster' but the 'proper solution' just doesn't look like it will happen in any realistic time frame

On the 3rd bullet point, i believe the current plan for Dewsbury to Leeds includes some realignment around Morley station to increase line speeds.
On the 4th, IIRC the original Slaithwaite station was two island platforms, however I doubt there's room for that now. It's possible you could do four tracking with platforms on the outer tracks only, if that was required.

On Dewsbury, you'd only gain a very awkward short loop, and it would be a significant reduction in speed for fast services, not just slight. The issue isn't just the alignment it's also the curve over the viaduct and the width of said viaduct- and the limits that places on the length (thus geometry) of the switches. A loop in the Up direction there is also pretty close to the start of what will be the four-track section, so it isn't the optimal place for another overtaking point. Even today, it's only a couple of miles from the existing 3-track section where a stopper can be passed.

 

[WAO]

I'd like to see York - Leeds sorted, presumably by building the Northern tip of HS2 first, from Church Fenton N Jn to a (fast) branch to Crossgates' proposed 4 tracks. It would need a truly heroic flyover over the M1. That still leaves Marsh Lane - Kirkgate - Leeds City as two track and both routes would need electrification. It could end main line Diesel operation North of Leeds.

WAO

 

[Ken H]

I'd like to see York - Leeds sorted, presumably by building the Northern tip of HS2 first, from Church Fenton N Jn to a (fast) branch to Crossgates' proposed 4 tracks. It would need a truly heroic flyover over the M1. That still leaves Marsh Lane - Kirkgate - Leeds City as two track and both routes would need electrification. It could end main line Diesel operation North of Leeds.

WAO

Sorting Marsh lane - Leeds Stn is the hard one. I can think of no reasonable way to widen it.
I have tried to think if a tunnel would work. But there is lady beck which runs under the railway by the bus station, which has a propensity to flood so that would be a difficulty. Under the station there is the river and the canal. So the tunnels would have to be a bit north of the station. Finding room for the West portal would be interesting.
Maybe further south would be easier. Under the river perhaps. But again, where would the west portal be? It really needs to point onto the Huddersfield line methinks.
Tube railway with platforms part of Leeds station.
but serious money. its unfashionable Leeds so no funding will be forthcoming.

 

[30907]

Purely on a timetabling point, to get any benefit from a loop it needs to be long enough NOT to delay the stopping train, which means two consecutive stations not one.

 

[Halifaxlad]

On the 3rd bullet point, i believe the current plan for Dewsbury to Leeds includes some realignment around Morley station to increase line speeds.

Morley station is effectively being demolished and being rebuilt slightly closer to Leeds!

 

[WAO]

Sorting Marsh lane - Leeds Stn is the hard one. I can think of no reasonable way to widen it.

I wonder whether it is quite so difficult. The viaduct is capable of 4 track west of Briggate/Bridge End, after which on the South side there appear to be only two buildings in The Calls on the line of a 2-track addition to the South, all the way to Marsh Lane. The rest is car parks etc. I agree that Leeds won't figure high in a Surrey based DfT Mandarin's priorities but this looks much more do-able than Manchester Piccadilly - Castlefield.

WAO

 

[bluenoxid]

Do you spend time and effort widening the viaduct or do you stick a new light rail route in, close Crossgates and one of the Garforth stations?

 

[WAO]

AS LRT came in at c£70M/route mile (Liverpool - Kirkby scheme), I think that the viaduct is better value. LRT is good for low capacity, short distance, one up from a bus; heavy rail is better (IMHO) for a metropolitan area like Leeds with a serious population size.

Just a thought.

WAO

 

[mike57]

I'd like to see York - Leeds sorted, presumably by building the Northern tip of HS2 first, from Church Fenton N Jn to a (fast) branch to Crossgates' proposed 4 tracks. It would need a truly heroic flyover over the M1. That still leaves Marsh Lane - Kirkgate - Leeds City as two track and both routes would need electrification. It could end main line Diesel operation North of Leeds.

WAO

I think we all would like to see HS2 reach Leeds and then head on to York, but as for when, I suspect it will 20-30 years away if then.

I wonder whether it is quite so difficult. The viaduct is capable of 4 track west of Briggate/Bridge End, after which on the South side there appear to be only two buildings in The Calls on the line of a 2-track addition to the South, all the way to Marsh Lane. The rest is car parks etc. I agree that Leeds won't figure high in a Surrey based DfT Mandarin's priorities but this looks much more do-able than Manchester Piccadilly - Castlefield.

WAO

Again even if this were to ever happen it will be years away, Issues with Castlefield will always be higher on the priority list

Which is why I was considering what could be done as a 'quick win' hence my limiting ideas to those that stay within the current rail corridor.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As an irregular but budget conscious user of the Calder valley, the timetable on here really needs sorting. Could there be additional platforms created at various points along the route to allow some degree of local stopping service to slot in with faster services on the route providing a true express service to Manchester from the likes of Bradford Halifax and hebden bridge etc? Effectively cut the stopping service on this route in half with maybe a Leeds to todmorden and a Manchester to to somewhere else with the through Service being something like
York or Leeds Bradford Halifax, hebden bridge, todmorden, Rochdale Manchester Victoria and either terminate there or continue West to somewhere else using the ? Either another airport service or perhaps a continuation to somewhere like Stockport or Stoke Oak or Liverpool or even towards the wcml. Do we actually need yolk Blackpool running this way stopping every granny's front door in the process? Could this be speeded up and or diverted
Or indeed cut in half


Should we be increasing services again on the Leeds Shipley Bradford Forster Square air route and incentivising Bradford customers to use these with cheaper fares etc rather than them crowding-out the diesel services to interchange that are desperately needed by people from other destinations? I know the free bus in Bradford has gone but could rail tickets be priced in order to add a transfer to interchange into the existing Bradford stations group

How feasible stop diverting some or all cross-country services via Harrogate be? Obviously there be a hit in the journey time but I don't know how badly this would be felt and if doing so required cutting out a local service why could XC not pick up a Harrogate call or two

 

[WAO]

I think we all would like to see HS2 reach Leeds and then head on to York, but as for when, I suspect it will 20-30 years away if then.


Again even if this were to ever happen it will be years away, Issues with Castlefield will always be higher on the priority list

Which is why I was considering what could be done as a 'quick win' hence my limiting ideas to those that stay within the current rail corridor.

We don't need to wait 30 years to build a Church Fenton - Crossgates line. The argument for it is the same as the wider HS2 - capacity but with the added bonus of alignment/speed

I agree that the North needs a "quick win"; there are mostly passable London services already but there aren't between most Northern towns.

Priorities

WAO

 

[Ken H]

We don't need to wait 30 years to build a Church Fenton - Crossgates line. The argument for it is the same as the wider HS2 - capacity but with the added bonus of alignment/speed

I agree that the North needs a "quick win"; there are mostly passable London services already but there aren't between most Northern towns.

Priorities

WAO

The most important flow is Leeds - Manchester. If resources are scarce, that's where they should concentrate on.

 

[geordieblue]

How feasible stop diverting some or all cross-country services via Harrogate be? Obviously there be a hit in the journey time but I don't know how badly this would be felt and if doing so required cutting out a local service why could XC not pick up a Harrogate call or two

You'd need to reverse at Leeds and York too which would add a significant time penalty and there's nowhere to overtake a local service on the Harrogate line itself. The route's also single-track in parts between Knaresborough and York. Not sure it could be made to fit in the timetable and the likely 40 minute increase in journey time would not be appreciated by most passengers I imagine.

 

[mike57]

How feasible stop diverting some or all cross-country services via Harrogate be? Obviously there be a hit in the journey time but I don't know how badly this would be felt and if doing so required cutting out a local service why could XC not pick up a Harrogate call or two

And cross country services also incur a (I think) roughly 20 min time penalty by using the Wakefield - Leeds route rather than the direct York - Doncaster - Sheffield one, so people travelling between York and places north and Sheffield and places south would be looking at about an hour + longer.

 

[30907]

the through Service being something like York or Leeds Bradford Halifax, hebden bridge, todmorden, Rochdale Manchester Victoria

That's exactly what one of the 2tph Bradford-Manchesters does, with the other making 3 extra stops so that the York Blackpool doesn't have to stop at

every granny's front door.

Yes, a half-hourly fast Bradford-Victoria would be even better but the Blackpool is a Regional Railways (or Britannia Building Society?) success story.

 

[YorksLad12]

I wonder whether it is quite so difficult. The viaduct is capable of 4 track west of Briggate/Bridge End, after which on the South side there appear to be only two buildings in The Calls on the line of a 2-track addition to the South, all the way to Marsh Lane. The rest is car parks etc. I agree that Leeds won't figure high in a Surrey based DfT Mandarin's priorities but this looks much more do-able than Manchester Piccadilly - Castlefield.

Everyone always forgets the cemetery at Leeds Parish Church, the headstones of which cover the south side of the present embankment (the better side to run a second viaduct). Someone on a different site, years ago, worked out that it would be possible to run a second viaduct from Leeds to Marsh Lane with minimal demolition. But, you've also got the associated worksite, cranes, road closures and having to rehouse some businesses, at least temporarily (12-plus months). And the connections at either end. It would allow parallel arrivals and departures at the east end of Leeds but you'd need more four-tracking east of Leeds to make the most of it. And a couple of extra platforms for the extra traffic you'd generate...

 

[matacaster]

Would it be feasible to demolish the existing viaduct walls down to track level at Marsh Lane and place a wider concrete slab overhanging the existing viaduct bed? The overhang at each side allowing 4 tracks.

 

[snowball]

Everyone always forgets the cemetery at Leeds Parish Church, the headstones of which cover the south side of the present embankment (the better side to run a second viaduct). Someone on a different site, years ago, worked out that it would be possible to run a second viaduct from Leeds to Marsh Lane with minimal demolition. But, you've also got the associated worksite, cranes, road closures and having to rehouse some businesses, at least temporarily (12-plus months). And the connections at either end. It would allow parallel arrivals and departures at the east end of Leeds but you'd need more four-tracking east of Leeds to make the most of it. And a couple of extra platforms for the extra traffic you'd generate...

I think the parish church is now known as Leeds Minster.
One report on the widening of this rail corridor was published about 10 years ago by North and West Yorkshire Chambers of Commerce as an alternative route for the HS2 eastern arm to approach the city centre.

 

[Neptune]

Would it be feasible to demolish the existing viaduct walls down to track level at Marsh Lane and place a wider concrete slab overhanging the existing viaduct bed? The overhang at each side allowing 4 tracks.

I don’t know if it’s a possible solution but if it were then might it be better to look at widening the structure where possible with the cantilever deck used only where necessary (above Leeds Minster graveyard etc). It would reduce the amount of time the line was unavailable for use by building adjacent first and actually completing that part and only then building the small cantilevered sections which would then be able to connect up once complete.

There is a lot of building work around the viaduct at the Marsh Lane end so factoring in a station around there would help connectivity for the east end of the city.

You would also want to see the 4 track section extend right out to Micklefield junction with a grade separated junction for the Selby lines. There’s no point not doing as you’re just kicking the can up the road otherwise.

I’d still look at closing the current Garforth and East Garforth stations and replacing them with one in between connected to the current Garforth car park and a walkway to the housing at EGF.

Another consideration if it was 4 tracked would be to have the 2 slow lines paired together on the north side of the formation to reduce conflicting moves at Leeds and at the grade separation in the Micklefield area.

 

[Ken H]

Would it be feasible to demolish the existing viaduct walls down to track level at Marsh Lane and place a wider concrete slab overhanging the existing viaduct bed? The overhang at each side allowing 4 tracks.

White cloth hall, an important listed building would be in the way. Tho it was truncayed somewhat when they built the original railway.

Here is a pic of white cloth hall. https://live.staticflickr.com/6030/5978139503_1a62004d63_b.jpg

 

[WAO]

Lovely Leeds picture!

I think that any widening would be on the south side, well away from the White Cloth Hall. The main property affected would be part of the west part of the "Coach Works", 21 The Calls. The rest is either car parks or just off the route.

A modern viaduct would be unlikely to be a brick arched affair. For elevated railways, think of the reconstructed Bletchley flyover, just vertical pillars at intervals with bridge decks in between.

If the Huddersfield - Dewsbury scheme is viable then so must be something along the lines of the above and of what other, better informed posters are suggesting. This would benefit not just TP etc but also XC and could even give Leeds an additional route to the ECML.

WAO

 

[YorksLad12]

I think the parish church is now known as Leeds Minster.

Not by us older locals. We also say "Armley Jail", not "Leeds Prison"...

I’d still look at closing the current Garforth and East Garforth stations and replacing them with one in between connected to the current Garforth car park and a walkway to the housing at EGF.

Get my vote. Otherwise you'd have Cross Gates, Thorpe Park, Garforth and East Garforth in the space of 3.5 miles (5.5km).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Everyone always forgets the cemetery at Leeds Parish Church, the headstones of which cover the south side of the present embankment (the better side to run a second viaduct).

Ironically I was going to post a comment on this very subject a few days ago...

If you want to four track East of Leeds the section by the graveyard has to be on an embankment, its the law!





Obviously this act of Parliament that stipulates this could be rescinded but that's highly unlikely and complicated.

 

[WAO]

Not a problem as the site is a wide and open park, although its reduction might be regretted.

What might be more tricky are the ground conditions as the cemetery was used for Cholera victims during Leeds' many sad epidemics.

WAO

 

[alexl92]

Morley station is effectively being demolished and being rebuilt slightly closer to Leeds!

Is it actually? Or are you referring to the new White Rose station which is replacing Cottingley?

 

[snowball]

Is it actually? Or are you referring to the new White Rose station which is replacing Cottingley?

No, I think he means Morley as he said. A videoed talk on TRU posted several months ago suggested that Morley station would be moved along the line. I think it's to enable the speed limit to be eased, or perhaps to put the station on a straight bit of track between the left- and right-hand curves.

 

[geordieblue]

No, I think he means Morley as he said. A videoed talk on TRU posted several months ago suggested that Morley station would be moved along the line. I think it's to enable the speed limit to be eased, or perhaps to put the station on a straight bit of track between the left- and right-hand curves.

I think they're easing the curves as well aren't they? Can't imagine it'll be an easy job

 

[YorksLad12]

No, I think he means Morley as he said. A videoed talk on TRU posted several months ago suggested that Morley station would be moved along the line. I think it's to enable the speed limit to be eased, or perhaps to put the station on a straight bit of track between the left- and right-hand curves.

Aye. I think prep work has already started, the car park was closed off for a while and some site clearing is going on.

I think they're easing the curves as well aren't they? Can't imagine it'll be an easy job

Curve and speed limit, I thought? There's a curve in the station area (as well as the larger ones further out), easing the curves and moving the station slightly should allow trains to enter and exit at higher speeds, even if only slightly. And it means Morley finally becomes accessible

 

[30907]

Not a problem as the site is a wide and open park, although its reduction might be regretted.

What might be more tricky are the ground conditions as the cemetery was used for Cholera victims during Leeds' many sad epidemics.

WAO

Fortunately the question is unlikely to arise, as four-tracking a line where all trains travel at the same speed brings little benefit - if you needed to regulate westbound trains a third track west of the Minster would suffice, unless you also wanted to revive the Leeds Parish Church station idea (under a new name!)