Indian railway electrification

[shawmat]

India has set itself the target of electrifying the entire broad gauge network by 31st March 2024 i.e. to complete within the next 7 months. The nation has been adding 7-10% every year for the last six years, so it looks like the target will be met. Net zero is a 2030 target, which requires the use of green sources of electricity rather than coal.

That's an extraordinary achievement, as least on a par with the moon landing! Indian railways (excluding metros) carry 8.5bn passengers per annum, second only to Japan (25bn), but they make longer journeys (6x). 1.2tn passenger-km is second only to China's 1.5tn with its well developed high-speed network.

The map shows this investment is not replicated in adjacent countries. Even China's line to Lhasa is not yet electrified (but is in progress).

 

[Flying Snail]

An unlimited supply of cheap labour and a laissez-faire approach to the safety and well being of the lower classes helps get things done.

 

[renegademaster]

An unlimited supply of cheap labour and a laissez-faire approach to the safety and well being of the lower classes helps get things done.

Our network would be tiny if not for the victorians building it in almost excatly the same circumstances

 

[Trainbike46]

India has set itself the target of electrifying the entire broad gauge network by 31st March 2024 i.e. to complete within the next 7 months. The nation has been adding 7-10% every year for the last six years, so it looks like the target will be met. Net zero is a 2030 target, which requires the use of green sources of electricity rather than coal.

That's an extraordinary achievement, as least on a par with the moon landing! Indian railways (excluding metros) carry 8.5bn passengers per annum, second only to Japan (25bn), but they make longer journeys (6x). 1.2tn passenger-km is second only to China's 1.5tn with its well developed high-speed network.

The map shows this investment is not replicated in adjacent countries. Even China's line to Lhasa is not yet electrified (but is in progress).

View attachment 141646

Great to see the fast progress to full electrification, as well as there being work to decarbonise the grid.

 

[Geeves]

In addition to wiring everywhere they also rebuilt thousandS of miles of meter gauge lines at the same time as putting up the overheads. The days of riding on the train roofs in India are well and truly over, not to mention the speed increase on most lines

India is also the first country to run double stack container trains while also using electric locomotives with extended pantographs in some areas on brand new dedicated freight only lines. Very impressive!

 

[shawmat]

In addition to wiring everywhere they also rebuilt thousandS of miles of meter gauge lines at the same time as putting up the overheads. The days of riding on the train roofs in India are well and truly over, not to mention the speed increase on most lines

India is also the first country to run double stack container trains while also using electric locomotives with extended pantographs in some areas on brand new dedicated freight only lines. Very impressive!

View attachment 141804

That is impressive. The garlands suggest it might be opening day?

Just imagine: the UK electrifying 7-10% of its railway network every year for six years. "Can't be done" we hear - until other countries prove otherwise.

Once India has completed its own network in 2024, they will have a very exportable capability. The upcoming UK-IN trade deal might be a great opportunity for our railways to acquire a "can be done" attitude.

 

[Trainbike46]

That is impressive. The garlands suggest it might be opening day?

Just imagine: the UK electrifying 7-10% of its railway network every year for six years. "Can't be done" we hear - until other countries prove otherwise.

Once India has completed its own network in 2024, they will have a very exportable capability. The upcoming UK-IN trade deal might be a great opportunity for our railways to acquire a "can be done" attitude.

That would be amazing!

I agree the double-stacked electric railway in the above image looks very impressive! - Maybe the USA could take lessons from that?

 

[shawmat]

That would be amazing!

I agree the double-stacked electric railway in the above image looks very impressive! - Maybe the USA could take lessons from that?

India has gung-ho private industrial companies and a powerful public sector. In the airline sector, Tata Group is well placed via its Indigo airline to knock Emirates/Qatar Airways off their perches. Watch this space. Does anyone know of a super-hub airport plan for India?

Your point about dedicated freight lines is well-made: passengers and freight don't mix. So India builds new freight lines (not HS2s), because they make sense to a sub-continent's geography. Yes, there is one high-speed passenger line under construction north from Mumbai, but their high-speed ambition is smaller than China's and spread over a much longer period.

I get the vibe that India has over the last 6-7 years been preparing for greatness on the world stage.

 

[WideRanger]

India has gung-ho private industrial companies and a powerful public sector. In the airline sector, Tata Group is well placed via its Indigo airline to knock Emirates/Qatar Airways off their perches. Watch this space. Does anyone know of a super-hub airport plan for India?

Indigo is unconnected with Tata. Tata owns part of Vistara and now Indian Airlines and Air Asia India.

 

[Trainbike46]

India has gung-ho private industrial companies and a powerful public sector. In the airline sector, Tata Group is well placed via its Indigo airline to knock Emirates/Qatar Airways off their perches. Watch this space. Does anyone know of a super-hub airport plan for India?

Your point about dedicated freight lines is well-made: passengers and freight don't mix. So India builds new freight lines (not HS2s), because they make sense to a sub-continent's geography. Yes, there is one high-speed passenger line under construction north from Mumbai, but their high-speed ambition is smaller than China's and spread over a much longer period.

I don't actually agree freight and passengers don't mix, depending on volumes of both I see now issue with mixed-use railways. I also think HS2 is the correct decision for the UK, but definitely off-topic here

I was mostly referring to the fact that double-stacked containers are common in the US, and that is used as an argument against electrification sometimes. It's good to see double stacked electrified railways are proven to work in India!

 

[ac6000cw]

I was mostly referring to the fact that double-stacked containers are common in the US, and that is used as an argument against electrification sometimes.

US double-stack trains are only about 4.5ft/1.3m taller than the bi-level EMUs used in the Chicago area. The 'Plate K' loading gauge Autorack car-carriers are also the same height as double-stacks in the centre.

So personally I don't think electrically hauling US double-stack trains in terms of wire-height is a big deal - just needs wider pantograph heads to deal with the extra sway (like the Indian locos in the photo have).

One issue in the US is that to accommodate double-stack and Autoracks, they've already used up the available vertical clearances through tunnels etc., and for commercial railroad companies making the financial numbers work for such a huge infrastructure project is difficult. Also what is said publicly via e.g. the AAR (their trade association) for political purposes isn't necessarily reflective of what the US railroads might be thinking internally. What I suspect they're trying to head off is legislation being passed to force them to electrify and pay for it all privately (as happened with PTC installation recently). I think it might need public money to 'oil the wheels' as a compromise (e.g. like how some of the PRR electrification projects in the 1930s were financed via low-interest 'New Deal' government loans).

If I had to bet on who might go for freight electrification first, it would be BNSF on their Chicago - LA route - it's got lots of 'open country' sections without significant tunnels and high traffic density, but power supplies might be an issue in some areas so I suspect a hybrid of OHLE sections with battery power for the gaps might be more likely as a first stage.

 

[stuu]

Double stacks under wired already happens in the US, although the train itself will be diesel powered (this is somewhere between Philadelphia and Harrisburg):

 

[ac6000cw]

Double stacks under wired already happens in the US, although the train itself will be diesel powered (this is somewhere between Philadelphia and Harrisburg):
View attachment 141865

Thanks for that - as that's a SEPTA EMU (made up from 4 x single cars, each with a pretty tall pantograph!) it'll be reasonably close to Philadelphia.
A bit of searching suggests it's probably the far end of the SEPTA 'West Trenton' line between Woodbourne and West Trenton (which continues north as the CSX route to New Jersey) or in the Norristown area.

 

[LLivery]

The progress Indian Railways and other sectors have made in the country has made is nothing short of incredible. Love to see it.

India has gung-ho private industrial companies and a powerful public sector. In the airline sector, Tata Group is well placed via its Indigo airline to knock Emirates/Qatar Airways off their perches. Watch this space. Does anyone know of a super-hub airport plan for India?

Your point about dedicated freight lines is well-made: passengers and freight don't mix. So India builds new freight lines (not HS2s), because they make sense to a sub-continent's geography. Yes, there is one high-speed passenger line under construction north from Mumbai, but their high-speed ambition is smaller than China's and spread over a much longer period.

I get the vibe that India has over the last 6-7 years been preparing for greatness on the world stage.

Passengers and freight can work if there's a will to do it in the right circumstances. To me, the North London Line is the most impressive railway in London, at least for timetabling. Those planners are world class.

The US allows freight companies to flout the law on passenger priority and they seem to accept their lazy excuses, without learning from the rest of the world. I recently saw a tweet claiming electricity isn't powerful enough for double-stacked freight, but diesel is. Yes, seriously...

 

[zwk500]

Just imagine: the UK electrifying 7-10% of its railway network every year for six years. "Can't be done" we hear - until other countries prove otherwise.

Once India has completed its own network in 2024, they will have a very exportable capability. The upcoming UK-IN trade deal might be a great opportunity for our railways to acquire a "can be done" attitude.

Of course what none of these stats are telling you is what level of technical challenge India is facing. The UK has had to electrify railways more than 100 years old without significant disturbance to traffic, while paying compensation to any Tom, Dick or Harry that is mildly annoyed by the sound of a drill. In addition we have to rebuild bridges, stations, tunnels, platforms etc to achieve the required clearance while India's larger track and loading gauges naturally achieve a significant part of that clearance without the need for remedial work.

That's not to say the UK can't improve on what it's doing, just a lesson to make sure comparisons account for the fact that one is apples and one is oranges.

I get the vibe that India has over the last 6-7 years been preparing for greatness on the world stage.

India has been preparing for greatness on the world stage since before it was independent. Arguably it *was* great on the world stage before being conquered for European empires, as that wealth and prestige was a significant part of the attraction for the East India Companies.

 

[Trainbike46]

US double-stack trains are only about 4.5ft/1.3m taller than the bi-level EMUs used in the Chicago area. The 'Plate K' loading gauge Autorack car-carriers are also the same height as double-stacks in the centre.

So personally I don't think electrically hauling US double-stack trains in terms of wire-height is a big deal - just needs wider pantograph heads to deal with the extra sway (like the Indian locos in the photo have).

One issue in the US is that to accommodate double-stack and Autoracks, they've already used up the available vertical clearances through tunnels etc., and for commercial railroad companies making the financial numbers work for such a huge infrastructure project is difficult. Also what is said publicly via e.g. the AAR (their trade association) for political purposes isn't necessarily reflective of what the US railroads might be thinking internally. What I suspect they're trying to head off is legislation being passed to force them to electrify and pay for it all privately (as happened with PTC installation recently). I think it might need public money to 'oil the wheels' as a compromise (e.g. like how some of the PRR electrification projects in the 1930s were financed via low-interest 'New Deal' government loans).

If I had to bet on who might go for freight electrification first, it would be BNSF on their Chicago - LA route - it's got lots of 'open country' sections without significant tunnels and high traffic density, but power supplies might be an issue in some areas so I suspect a hybrid of OHLE sections with battery power for the gaps might be more likely as a first stage.

I fully agree it was always a bull**** excuse spouted for political reasons, but such a visible of example of it existing only reaffirms that.

Of course what none of these stats are telling you is what level of technical challenge India is facing. The UK has had to electrify railways more than 100 years old without significant disturbance to traffic, while paying compensation to any Tom, Dick or Harry that is mildly annoyed by the sound of a drill. In addition we have to rebuild bridges, stations, tunnels, platforms etc to achieve the required clearance while India's larger track and loading gauges naturally achieve a significant part of that clearance without the need for remedial work.

That's not to say the UK can't improve on what it's doing, just a lesson to make sure comparisons account for the fact that one is apples and one is oranges.

India has been preparing for greatness on the world stage since before it was independent. Arguably it *was* great on the world stage before being conquered for European empires, as that wealth and prestige was a significant part of the attraction for the East India Companies.

To me, the most relevant difference is that India clearly has the political will to get electrification done, something that is lacking in the UK unfortunately. Obviously the timescales in the UK would be longer than in India, and it would undoubtedly cost more, in part because of the many relevant differences you mention

 

[ac6000cw]

To me, the most relevant difference is that India clearly has the political will to get electrification done, something that is lacking in the UK unfortunately. Obviously the timescales in the UK would be longer than in India, and it would undoubtedly cost more, in part because of the many relevant differences you mention

For some GB numbers:

According to ORR statistics, after a 12 year near hiatus from 1999, between 2011 and 2022 Great Britain added around 2000 track km/780 route km of electrification - see https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1528/table-6320-infrastructure-on-the-mainline.ods

About 38% of GB route km is electrified (46% of track km).

Also according to this ORR data: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2139/rail-infrastructure-assets-apr-2021-mar-2022.pdf :

As of 31 March 2022, 71% of all passenger train operator rolling stock were electric. Diesel vehicles made up 18%, and 11% of the passenger fleet were either bi-mode or locomotive hauled

...which probably implies that around 70% of passenger vehicle miles are electrically operated, plus a reasonable percentage of the traffic on bi-mode trains (which are 7% of total vehicles).

This is a breakdown by TOC:

 

[shawmat]

Of course what none of these stats are telling you is what level of technical challenge India is facing. The UK has had to electrify railways more than 100 years old without significant disturbance to traffic, while paying compensation to any Tom, Dick or Harry that is mildly annoyed by the sound of a drill. In addition we have to rebuild bridges, stations, tunnels, platforms etc to achieve the required clearance while India's larger track and loading gauges naturally achieve a significant part of that clearance without the need for remedial work.

That's not to say the UK can't improve on what it's doing, just a lesson to make sure comparisons account for the fact that one is apples and one is oranges.

India has been preparing for greatness on the world stage since before it was independent. Arguably it *was* great on the world stage before being conquered for European empires, as that wealth and prestige was a significant part of the attraction for the East India Companies.

It's dangerous to comment on another country's politics, but the facts on the ground suggest that policies enacted after 2014 are now reaping major benefits. The Central Organisation for Railway Electrification existed beforehand, but the political impetus is new. The Modi government was elected in 2014.

For some GB numbers:

According to ORR statistics, after a 12 year near hiatus from 1999, between 2011 and 2022 Great Britain added around 2000 track km/780 route km of electrification - see https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1528/table-6320-infrastructure-on-the-mainline.ods

About 38% of GB route km is electrified (46% of track km).

Also according to this ORR data: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2139/rail-infrastructure-assets-apr-2021-mar-2022.pdf :


...which probably implies that around 70% of passenger vehicle miles are electrically operated, plus a reasonable percentage of the traffic on bi-mode trains (which are 7% of total vehicles).

This is a breakdown by TOC:

View attachment 141878

I like the graphic. But it is a classic example of stats being misused.

• Why is "Train Operator" on the Y axis? It gives no information about the size of the network covered, the passenger-km.
• Why use a graphic about rolling stock to discuss route electrification? A graphic that shows how much non-electric traction is used "under the wires" would be rather inforamtive.

The "blue bulge" gives the impression that Britain's railways are doing well by cherry-picking the main routes to electrify. We've made a social contract over the last 50 years or so (since about 1972 I'd suggest) to maintain the remaining network. It has cost us dearly in recent years, but its rather less than the cost of reopening closed lines.

So what's the plan to get it all electrified?

 

[Ken H]

I think india doesnt have many overbridges. Its an important difference as one of the huge costs of UK electrification is replacing or altering bridges.

 

[zwk500]

It's dangerous to comment on another country's politics, but the facts on the ground suggest that policies enacted after 2014 are now reaping major benefits. The Central Organisation for Railway Electrification existed beforehand, but the political impetus is new. The Modi government was elected in 2014.

I was asking primarily about the technical and accounting differences in the challenge faced. I don't doubt that political impetus is very important to any major public investment programme.

I like the graphic. But it is a classic example of stats being misused.

• Why use a graphic about rolling stock to discuss route electrification? A graphic that shows how much non-electric traction is used "under the wires" would be rather inforamtive.

The stat you want is vehicle-miles by power mode. That chart is useless because Bi-mode/loco hauled is a completely opaque category.

 

[edwin_m]

In addition to wiring everywhere they also rebuilt thousandS of miles of meter gauge lines at the same time as putting up the overheads. The days of riding on the train roofs in India are well and truly over, not to mention the speed increase on most lines

India is also the first country to run double stack container trains while also using electric locomotives with extended pantographs in some areas on brand new dedicated freight only lines. Very impressive!

View attachment 141804

They do also run passenger trains on lines with high overhead lines. However, they haven't managed to make it work at more than 110km/h. There are various videos showing this, but I can't dig out the links right now.

 

[ac6000cw]

The "blue bulge" gives the impression that Britain's railways are doing well by cherry-picking the main routes to electrify.

Electrifying the busiest routes first is the obvious thing to do - it maximises the return on investment (be that lower running costs, more revenue from faster services & quieter trains or CO2 reduction etc.). So you should be 'cherry picking' the routes. It would be madness to electrify the least-used routes first...

• Why use a graphic about rolling stock to discuss route electrification?

1. It was available in the document I linked to, and I thought it was interesting.
2. 'Route miles electrified' is just a 'mine is bigger than yours' type of comparison - what matters is how much rail traffic is electrically hauled (that's why you electrify railways in the first place). As the GB rolling stock fleet is generally pretty intensively used, the relative amounts of electric and diesel powered vehicles on the network is probably a reasonable comparator of the traffic carried by each type. Note the stats are based on vehicles, not units or trains. If you use the year 2021-22 electric and diesel railway energy consumption stats here - https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/infrastructure-and-emissions/rail-emissions/ - and assume a 30% conversion efficiency (from fuel to kinetic energy) overall for diesel trains, the relative proportion of electric to diesel train usage comes out around the same as the vehicle comparison i.e. about 68% electric to 32% diesel.

• A graphic that shows how much non-electric traction is used "under the wires" would be rather informative.

This is the ORR data portal - https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/ There are all sorts of statistics there, but I haven't come across anything like that so far.

 

[Geeves]

They do also run passenger trains on lines with high overhead lines. However, they haven't managed to make it work at more than 110km/h. There are various videos showing this, but I can't dig out the links right now.

Edwin yeah I have been reading about that, I believe they managed at least half a fix by running with the pantograph the other way around, something interesting for the folks at Faiveley to get their minds on at least!

​

 

[edwin_m]

Edwin yeah I have been reading about that, I believe they managed at least half a fix by running with the pantograph the other way around, something interesting for the folks at Faiveley to get their minds on at least!

​

The 110km/h was only achievable with the pantograph one way round, I think it was about 80km/h the other way. I believe the pantograph in question is made by Schunk. I did wonder whether the solution that Brecknell Willis developed for the Class 91 pantograph would work here - attach small aerofoils tweaked to equalise the forces in each direction.

 

[railfan99]

It would be madness to electrify the least-used routes first...

Agree, but I'd change the emphasis to 'madness to electrify some little used routes at all'.

In my Australian state, in the 1950s, a 160km route to Traralgon was electrified due to briquette traffic to a Melbourne suburb with a power station. The traffic eventually ceased: electrification was removed on 102km, the outer section.

I visited India in late 2019, just before COVID. One pleasant Saturday I travelled on the Hassan Junction to Bengaluru (Bangalore) line past swamps/lakes. The train was comfortably full, but no standees. Traffic volumes on it would (I hypothesise) not justify electrification.

That said, as many of us know, freight and passenger train volumes on many Indian Railways lines are most impressive, and presumably in line with what's occurring benefit from electrification.

Not wanting to go OT, but visit while you can still have openable doors on many trains, and affordable day train and sleeping car travel. 2AC class is very suitable for foreigners using main line trains. The Travelling Ticket Examiners are courteous and helpful if my weeks of limited experience is any guide.

 

[eldomtom2]

One issue in the US is that to accommodate double-stack and Autoracks, they've already used up the available vertical clearances through tunnels etc., and for commercial railroad companies making the financial numbers work for such a huge infrastructure project is difficult. Also what is said publicly via e.g. the AAR (their trade association) for political purposes isn't necessarily reflective of what the US railroads might be thinking internally. What I suspect they're trying to head off is legislation being passed to force them to electrify and pay for it all privately (as happened with PTC installation recently). I think it might need public money to 'oil the wheels' as a compromise (e.g. like how some of the PRR electrification projects in the 1930s were financed via low-interest 'New Deal' government loans).

If I had to bet on who might go for freight electrification first, it would be BNSF on their Chicago - LA route - it's got lots of 'open country' sections without significant tunnels and high traffic density, but power supplies might be an issue in some areas so I suspect a hybrid of OHLE sections with battery power for the gaps might be more likely as a first stage.

I'll believe any US railroad has plans to electrify when they actually do it. But their opposition to even government-funded electrification makes it unlikely in my opinion. Actually electrifying makes it harder to legally fight things like California's recent legislation demanding zero-emissions locos, as well as give the lie to all their anti-electrification propaganda which would then become useless and provide further impetus for any government electrification mandate.

I just don't see how the AAR etc.'s actions make sense unless they genuinely intend to stave off electrification altogether.

2. 'Route miles electrified' is just a 'mine is bigger than yours' type of comparison - what matters is how much rail traffic is electrically hauled (that's why you electrify railways in the first place).

Comparing route miles is definitely not irrelevant to determining how much investment there has been on electrification - it's what costs the money, after all (IIRC buying electric traction is a much smaller part of the costs of electrification than the actual infrastructure). There are only so many emissions savings you can squeeze out from efficiency measures, especially when you're still using diesel.