Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[DynamicSpirit]

Something that's long puzzled me, so I decided to see what people think... The following is based on my impressions having never used Eurostar but sometimes explored their website to see if it's worth a trip to Paris, or perhaps somewhere like Boulogne - so feel free to correct me if I'm completely wrong

London to Paris or Brussels by Eurostar takes just over 2 hours - comparable to London-Manchester or London-Leeds journey times, and the distance as-the-crow-flies isn't that much further. Yet London-Manchester and London-Leeds offer multiple trains per hour on roughly clockface times designed for turn-up-and go. By contrast, Eurostar London-Paris offers at best one train per hour (not clockface) to a larger city, and as far as I can work out from its website, doesn't seem to sell open 'turn up and go and use any train' tickets. If I try and book to travel the next day, the fares for a return journey limited to a particular train are eye-watering even by UK rail standards - sometimes up to £300ish for a return journey, even on a standard ticket (though it gets a lot cheaper and much more comparable with UK fares if I book weeks in a advance). A very few trains stop at Calais, which at an hour out from London ought to be commutable (at least before Brexit), yet there seems to have been absolutely zero attempt to tempt anyone to use Eurostar to commute (in contrast to the SouthEastern HS2 trains which travel a similar distance and rely on commuters). Yes, I realise there wouldn't be a huge Calais-London commuter market, but if it was promoted, there'd be some market, which would add to the numbers on trains.

Then there's what look to me like absurd check-in times, when you'd have thought all you basically have to do is show your passport, have a baggage check, and jump on the train: According to the website, 30 minutes unless you 'buy' a shorter time by getting an ultra-expensive Business Premier ticket.

This all gives me the impression of a company that's doing its utmost to put people off from using its trains. Indeed a good part of why I've never travelled on Eurostar - is that it looks to me such a hassle and so expensive in comparison to any UK train.

Is my impression unreasonable? Is it possible that Eurostar are suppressing demand by making its services so infrequent/expensive/difficult to use? Or are there good reasons for that?

 

[gsnedders]

Fundamentally, Eurostar is operating like an airline. (Note that its competition was historically almost exclusively airlines!)

A lot of the things like check-in are basically forced by the Anglo-French treaties covering the Channel Tunnel (requiring border control before entering the tunnel).

The train length, which partly drive the frequency of the service, has historically mostly been set based on the Channel Tunnel safety standard requiring very long trains.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Something that's long puzzled me, so I decided to see what people think... The following is based on my impressions having never used Eurostar but sometimes explored their website to see if it's worth a trip to Paris, or perhaps somewhere like Boulogne - so feel free to correct me if I'm completely wrong

London to Paris or Brussels by Eurostar takes just over 2 hours - comparable to London-Manchester or London-Leeds journey times, and the distance as-the-crow-flies isn't that much further. Yet London-Manchester and London-Leeds offer multiple trains per hour on roughly clockface times designed for turn-up-and go. By contrast, Eurostar London-Paris offers at best one train per hour (not clockface) to a larger city, and as far as I can work out from its website, doesn't seem to sell open 'turn up and go and use any train' tickets. If I try and book to travel the next day, the fares for a return journey limited to a particular train are eye-watering even by UK rail standards - sometimes up to £300ish for a return journey, even on a standard ticket (though it gets a lot cheaper and much more comparable with UK fares if I book weeks in a advance). A very few trains stop at Calais, which at an hour out from London ought to be commutable (at least before Brexit), yet there seems to have been absolutely zero attempt to tempt anyone to use Eurostar to commute (in contrast to the SouthEastern HS2 trains which travel a similar distance and rely on commuters). Yes, I realise there wouldn't be a huge Calais-London commuter market, but if it was promoted, there'd be some market, which would add to the numbers on trains.

Then there's what look to me like absurd check-in times, when you'd have thought all you basically have to do is show your passport, have a baggage check, and jump on the train: According to the website, 30 minutes unless you 'buy' a shorter time by getting an ultra-expensive Business Premier ticket.

This all gives me the impression of a company that's doing its utmost to put people off from using its trains. Indeed a good part of why I've never travelled on Eurostar - is that it looks to me such a hassle and so expensive in comparison to any UK train.

Is my impression unreasonable? Is it possible that Eurostar are suppressing demand by making its services so infrequent/expensive/difficult to use? Or are there good reasons for that?

Eurostar generates a significant amount of revenue - at £793m of passenger revenue last year, they are a 'bigger' operation than even (ex-)VTEC or Southeastern! So clearly their pricing strategy is working for them.

I agree that it's a shame that it is considered necessary to have such extensive security checks before using the Eurostar. There are no such comparable checks when travelling on HS1, or the Eurotunnel car services, or the TGV services on the other side. So I fail to see why a service where security checks are not deemed necessary for each intermediate part of the journey, requires security checks when the journey is done as a whole.

They could also consider doing the passport and immigration checks onboard the train, in my view. That would mean you could simply board it like any other long-distance train, rather than it being the 'flight' type experience it currently is. That would perhaps encourage some marginal passengers.

But ultimately it is different to long-distance travel purely within the UK (or purely within another country) and so it simply works differently.

 

[Starmill]

...or the TGV services on the other side.

Some checks were put in place at Paris Gare du Nord for Thalys services. With no security for anyone boarding at any other station, however, these are considered to be a case of 'security theatre' by some.

I have asked the same question about why frequency is relatively low and the final service is so early. Broadly I believe the answer is connected to capacity. The commercial objective is to run the trains close to capacity. When you're operating a 400 metre train with more than 900 seats, it will be a fantastically tall order to have them filled near to capacity at twice an hour.

As for turn up and go, this certainly is available - but of course all trains are reservation compulsory, so... You may only be able to buy a ruiniously expensive Business First ticket, too. On the plus side you may still check in with just 10 minutes to departure. If you already had a Business First ticket, it's valid on any train, although note that reservations are still compulsory.

As far as commuting from Calais to London is concerned - why would anybody do this? I understand that until relatively recently, Eurostar didn't serve Calais.

Finally, London to Paris trains don't have any intermediate market to serve. Almost all trains between London and West Yorkshire carry passengers between London and Stevenage, Peterborough or Grantham. They then also carry passengers between Doncaster or Wakefield and Leeds. These are not trivial flows.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anytime return Euston to Manchester for today is going to be well north of £300. Eurostar to Paris is fairly similar, comparing like with like...

 

[CMS]

It’s clear the OP has never travelled on the Eurostar. Just a few remarks:

- Comparing the E* operation to WCML/ECML is ludicrous. One is an international route, one is intercity with several stops en-route and no borders issues. Nonetheless, picking up on fares, “Turn up and go” fares on Virgin are just as expensive, if not more than E*’s. Compare an on the day anytime 1st return at £484 London-Manchester to a Business Premier £490 London-Paris. The latter ticket would mean that even if you showed up 2 MONTHS LATE for your train, you would still get a seat on the next available train, with a hot meal, champagne, a guaranteed seat reservation, access to a very decent lounge and discounts to a handful of attractions across the network - to me, that’s the right proposition to attract and retain an affluent business traveller who relies on flexibility. At the lower £ end, both require an element of advance, online booking. But deals are to be had on both, which are accessible to the regular customer (VT advances, Eurostar snap/£59 returns). I’d also make the comment that people wouldn’t wake up and rationally go “hmm I want to go to the capital city of another country today so I will because it’s only a few hours on the train” and expect to do so without paying £££ for it. As for a day-trip to Boulogne as mentioned, there is not the demand by any stretch of the imagination. Service is whittled back at Calais to 2/3 trains per day and SNCF have stripped right back on the surrounding lines meaning 2-3 hour gaps in the off-peak TER frequencies.

- Calais <> London will never be a commuter market, there is not sufficient infrastructure on the French side, nor demand. Any “commuters” from the Côte d’Opale go to Lille or Paris. Notably, the Calais-Fréthun departure lounge can only hold about 100 customers at a time, there wouldn’t be enough car parking space for commuters as Lille commuters take it up and TER connections make it unattractive. If you look at the Eurostar base pdf timetables, there actually are some commuter-geared services, which regular commuters and expats use (from experience, these trains are way more “regulars” than the usual mix of tourists and leisure). I’m thinking of Sunday’s 9056, Monday’s 9005 and 9109, Friday’s 9060/9030/9038/9051. UK intercity commuter services are not usually explicitly marketed as such and so neither are these Eurostar services.

- A Eurostar e320 seats 912 people, Eurostar doesn’t know who needs a visa - unlikely but it could be 100s, who is likely to need extra immigration checks - again unlikely could be 100s, baggage per customer or how many border officers are 100% available at X time - could be that 10 are scheduled, 2 phone in sick, 1 is late and 2 need to question a customer... so I think it’s very reasonable to request a 30 minute check-in. If anything, it surprises me that BP is not also 30 mins, or 20 at a push. Add to that, the operational complications of train pathing on mixed-speed lines, requiring arriving and departing passengers to be physically separate and the physical capacity of the check-in area, then you cannot compare this to platform 6 at Watford Junction! This cannot be worked around due to Schengen.

- I’m not too sure what the actual wasted opportunity is: E* has been going for 23 years, has added new destinations, trialled many different tactics (revamping 1st class, Lyria from Lille connection, Disney offers, Eurostar Snap, 2 for 1 attractions etc). There is no demand, and essentially no business case for turn up and go, clockface timetables, regular service intervals. Perhaps there are some missed opportunities in terms of stock utilisation, a Bordeaux service, better use of the Kent stations to relieve St Pancras congestion, timetable revisions to ensure a more reliable set of peak departures from Paris... I’m sure others will find a few, just not those hinted at here.

To me, the worst TOCs over promise and under deliver and although E* is not perfect, I don’t think it’s as bad as the consistent poor delivery of several UK intercity TOCs.

I completely understand that in an ideal world, train travel would be so easy, accessible and attractive to all but the railway is a business and economic and operational requirements cannot be overlooked as wasted opportunities.

 

[Suraggu]

This is probably going to cause some members to be triggered, but if the UK became a member of Schengen, I believe Eurostar would have expanded at a much earlier stage.

 

[Hadders]

I'm sure RDG and many TOCs look on in envy at Eurostar and would love to follow their model given half a chance, rather than the other way round for long distance travel.

No walk on railway
Compulsory reservations
No fares regulation so they can charge what they like

 

[squizzler]

I'm sure RDG and many TOCs look on in envy at Eurostar and would love to follow their model given half a chance, rather than the other way round for long distance travel.

No walk on railway
Compulsory reservations
No fares regulation so they can charge what they like

Quite. And with regard to comments regarding the frequency vs lengths of trains I guess many operators would like to run longer trains with less frequency if only the stations could accommodate them.

One of the problems that affected the development of Eurostar was the development of so-called low cost airlines. This resulted in many of the routes being abandoned for many years. This summer we see Ryanair's service collapsing due to industrial action. It will be interesting to see if their customers give the train a go.

 

[DarloRich]

Something that's long puzzled me, so I decided to see what people think... The following is based on my impressions having never used Eurostar but sometimes explored their website to see if it's worth a trip to Paris, or perhaps somewhere like Boulogne - so feel free to correct me if I'm completely wrong

Eurostar seems to work and work well. It has beaten the airlines into second place on the routes it serves ( Amsterdam apart). Fares seem to be decent for normal passengers looking for a weekend away in Europe (like me) and the trains seems to be busy. It is a long distance high speed bulk passenger service not a commuter service and seems to do a great job at meeting that job description.

Then there's what look to me like absurd check-in times, when you'd have thought all you basically have to do is show your passport, have a baggage check, and jump on the train: According to the website, 30 minutes unless you 'buy' a shorter time by getting an ultra-expensive Business Premier ticket.

The check in times seem about right when you have c.900 people per train ( and often 2 or 3 trains open) to deal with for almost every country in the world some with biometric passports and some without, some with luggage and some without. The longest part is the queue to get throug hthe "check in" desks.

This all gives me the impression of a company that's doing its utmost to put people off from using its trains. Indeed a good part of why I've never travelled on Eurostar - is that it looks to me such a hassle and so expensive in comparison to any UK train.

You are missing out and making your life harder than it need be and seem to be looking for an excuse to knock something that works well. Personally I am unsure what opportunity is being wasted. It looks like a success to me.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

I have travelled on Eurostar, hate it, completely agree with the o/p. Nothing to stop Eurostar lobbying to speed/streamline the boarding process, and develop new markets, all the innovations over the years have been silly gimmicks. I gave up using Eurostar five years ago when I misbooked a ticket for returning home. It helps living next door to Harwich, same pointless security theatre (but outward only) but fewer foot passengers mean that I can through the terminal and in my cabin in ten minutes.

 

[edwin_m]

This is probably going to cause some members to be triggered, but if the UK became a member of Schengen, I believe Eurostar would have expanded at a much earlier stage.

Not being in Schengen doesn't make much difference as long as the requirement exists for baggage screening. In principle passport control can be done anywhere just by bringing in some people and a small amount of equipment. But if passport controls were eliminated, if baggage would still have to be scanned by large, costly and non-portable machines at every boarding point. Or you have the farce of everyone tipping out at Lille or Brussels only to rejoin the same or a later train.

 

[DarloRich]

I have travelled on Eurostar, hate it, completely agree with the o/p. Nothing to stop Eurostar lobbying to speed/streamline the boarding process, and develop new markets, all the innovations over the years have been silly gimmicks. I gave up using Eurostar five years ago when I misbooked a ticket for returning home. It helps living next door to Harwich, same pointless security theatre (but outward only) but fewer foot passengers mean that I can through the terminal and in my cabin in ten minutes.

hmmmmmmmmmm - is the "security theatre" (?) not the same as on an airline?

 

[Journeyman]

Fundamentally, Eurostar is operating like an airline. (Note that its competition was historically almost exclusively airlines!)

A lot of the things like check-in are basically forced by the Anglo-French treaties covering the Channel Tunnel (requiring border control before entering the tunnel).

The train length, which partly drive the frequency of the service, has historically mostly been set based on the Channel Tunnel safety standard requiring very long trains.

Eurostar has successfully destroyed the market for air travel from London to Paris and Brussels, and I'm sure it'll be making major inroads into Amsterdam traffic before long.

 

[Esker-pades]

Although I disagree with the "Eurostar is a wasted opportunity", because it really isn't, I do think Eurostar has peaked and is now declining.
Standard Premier is certainly no longer worth it. The meals served are worse than LNER or other long-distance domestic TOCs. (Whilst LNER gives you a Full English, Eurostar is a fairly pathetic continental now.) The seating on the refurbished sets and the 374s is also worse than before, and worse than TGV first class and standard class.
The check-in is also longer and much less smooth than it was a few years ago. For my last Eurostar trip, they requested that I turned up 45-60 minutes before departure.
Paris Gare du Nord is getting worse as it can't cope with the increased passenger numbers.

Some things may be outside Eurostar's control (increased security as a result of gits with bombs), but other things most certainly are inside their control (seating, comfort, service).

 

[Starmill]

This is probably going to cause some members to be triggered, but if the UK became a member of Schengen, I believe Eurostar would have expanded at a much earlier stage.

I agree. That's really the solution to the problems as the OP sees them! It was a good idea. Of course, now...

 

[Western Lord]

Eurostar has successfully destroyed the market for air travel from London to Paris and Brussels, and I'm sure it'll be making major inroads into Amsterdam traffic before long.

Eurostar services to Amsterdam are highly unlikely to have the airlines worrying. The journey is too long and services too infrequent to have any major impact. and remember that for many people living around London, getting to an airport is easier than getting to St. Pancras.

 

[nw1]

I think the thing with Eurostar is it's likely to be a fairly major trip, compared to a routine domestic journey which might need to be done at short notice and for which good value walk-on fares are a must. For me, booking in advance for a continental journey has always seemed natural, part of the holiday, and I've certainly got some good value fares in the past - admittedly often with another operator such as DB selling them (though I do seem to recall getting a good deal to Brussels when I got an InterRail ticket in 2009)

Did London to Munich for something like Eur 59 once - in July - for instance, and have done about three trips to southern Germany or Austria for less than Eur 200 return - all in July so peak holiday season.

So my experience is good. It is a great shame that the bureaucracy of returning to the UK cannot be minimised and we cannot have passport checks on arrival at St Pancras - or on the train - for instance (or even the UK be part of Schengen, but sadly post-2016 that political view is deeply unfashionable). Having return legs from Marseille, Amsterdam and potentially other popular destinations such as Frankfurt and Cologne free from border bureaucracy would be a huge boost.

 

[Mikey C]

Quite. And with regard to comments regarding the frequency vs lengths of trains I guess many operators would like to run longer trains with less frequency if only the stations could accommodate them.

One of the problems that affected the development of Eurostar was the development of so-called low cost airlines. This resulted in many of the routes being abandoned for many years. This summer we see Ryanair's service collapsing due to industrial action. It will be interesting to see if their customers give the train a go.

For most passengers they are low-cost airlines, as most people book in advance for the cheap tickets, and even with addons for luggage etc they are still excellent value for money. Most significantly they serve the regions too, if I live in Exeter or Norwich or Cardiff or Leeds, do I take the train to London to catch a Eurostar to Paris, or do I take a direct flight?

And low-cost airlines serve masses of destination, as opposed to Eurostar.

 

[EM2]

Just regarding the timetable, it needs to be borne in mind that Eurostar has to share the tunnel with car and freight shuttles, so that restricts the number of trains that they can run.

 

[quantinghome]

For most passengers they are low-cost airlines, as most people book in advance for the cheap tickets, and even with addons for luggage etc they are still excellent value for money. Most significantly they serve the regions too, if I live in Exeter or Norwich or Cardiff or Leeds, do I take the train to London to catch a Eurostar to Paris, or do I take a direct flight?

Living in Leeds, I would always compare the rail and air options when going to Belgium or Paris. The return journey is particularly appealing as you can get a Eurostar mid-afternoon and still be back home at a respectable time. Further afield, air becomes more attractive but even then it holds up on certain journeys. We're going on holiday in the south of France and although we eventually decided to fly the train option wasn't that bad in terms of price or schedule.

And low-cost airlines serve masses of destination, as opposed to Eurostar.

It's horses for courses. Although Eurostar has some airline-style arrangements, it is fundamentally a train service and does what trains do best - transporting large numbers of people between large population centres. Airlines will always be better able to provide services from smaller population centres to more destinations, although at lower frequencies.

 

[NickBucks]

I see that the French government is planning a substantial enlargement of Gare Du Nord with particular emphasis on increasing the space available for Eurostar services. My only regret is that the French will not centralise all TGV / Eurostar type services at one location . This would make travelling to other European destinations a more pleasant experience.
I would urge the OP to give Eurostar a chance. Paris is a delightful city and I always find it amazing that although only 22+ miles separate us when you emerge from the tunnel portals at Calais or Folkestone it is obvious that our respective countries differ in terms of the countryside, architecture, building styles etc.

 

[Elwyn]

One of the reasons that the UK (plus Ireland, Denmark and some others) is not in Schengen is that we are islands or mostly so. That makes border controls much more effective than for countries with major land borders, where circumventing the controls is quite easy.


Plus relying on an immigration officer in say Greece to check that someone is fully eligible to enter the UK has its difficulties. Given the current pore-occupation with firm immigration controls I see no chance of the UK joining Schengen. Schengen itself has looked rather wobbly in the past year or so with some participating countries exercising their limited rights to reintroduce some border controls. In certain circumstances it might even be abolished.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as commuting from Calais to London is concerned - why would anybody do this? I understand that until relatively recently, Eurostar didn't serve Calais.

It's served Calais Frethun and Lille Europe from the start.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anytime return Euston to Manchester for today is going to be well north of £300. Eurostar to Paris is fairly similar, comparing like with like...

It's not like for like, though, as the vast majority of walk up passengers will be using an Off Peak ticket.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think it is very right to argue in favour of some sort of 'clockface' timetable. Surely people will want to be able to depart at, say, 07:00 and on the hour until 20:00 with two additions at 07:04 and 18:04 to satisfy capacity and to allow those 07:00 and 18:00 'Express' trains to run fast whilst the ones behind pick people up at Ebbsfleet?

Same for Brussels, what of everything sodding off from London at 06:30, 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30, 16:30, 18:30 and 20:30? Add an 08:34 Brussels in behind the 08:30 Amsterdam and a 17:30 Amsterdam fast?

And that way, surely, you can use the gaps at 07:30 / 09:30 / 11:30 / 13:30 / 15:30 for any other trains you want to run like Bourg St Maurice, Avignon, Marne la Vallee...

 

[DarloRich]

It's served Calais Frethun and Lille Europe from the start.

my recent trains to and from Brussels stopped at both ( and Ebbsfleet) in both directions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

hmmmmmmmmmm - is the "security theatre" (?) not the same as on an airline?

It's much less so, it's more like the pre-9/11 airline security, e.g. liquids allowed.

 

[DarloRich]

It's much less so, it's more like the pre-9/11 airline security, e.g. liquids allowed.

they weren't allowed, open, through the security. You had to bin them.

 

[DarloRich]

I think it is very right to argue in favour of some sort of 'clockface' timetable. Surely people will want to be able to depart at, say, 07:00 and on the hour until 20:00 with two additions at 07:04 and 18:04 to satisfy capacity and to allow those 07:00 and 18:00 'Express' trains to run fast whilst the ones behind pick people up at Ebbsfleet?

Same for Brussels, what of everything sodding off from London at 06:30, 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30, 16:30, 18:30 and 20:30? Add an 08:34 Brussels in behind the 08:30 Amsterdam and a 17:30 Amsterdam fast?

And that way, surely, you can use the gaps at 07:30 / 09:30 / 11:30 / 13:30 / 15:30 for any other trains you want to run like Bourg St Maurice, Avignon, Marne la Vallee...

But is the issue not just the Eurostar timetable. It has to find a path through the tunnel between the car trains then up the shared HS tracks to Brussels or Paris