Is it OK to use Thameslink KeyGo on EMR trains?

[Timmy]

Two or three times a month I use KeyGo to travel from Bedford to London, usually Blackfriars, on Thameslink trains. When I first started using KeyGo I asked Thameslink if it was OK to use EMR trains to St Pancras, they said it wasn’t recommended because of possible issues at the EMR gateline.

I’m now planning to use St Pancras more often and potentially have the option of using EMR trains. Are Thameslink KeyGo cards actually valid on EMR trains? A paper ticket bought at Bedford would be valid on either Thameslink or EMR. Thanks.

 

[Haywain]

Are Thameslink KeyGo cards actually valid on EMR trains?

They are not, unless they carry a pre-purchased ticket. This is what the Thameslink website says (my bold):

• KeyGo cannot be used on TfL (Transport for London) or other train company’s services with one small exception. KeyGo can be used on Great Western Railway services between Redhill and Dorking Deepdene. This is in place to allow onward keyGo journeys on Southern services from Dorking station where you can touch in/touch out

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately not. It seems rather harsh seeing as you aren't getting a discount in exchange for that loss of flexibility over a paper/eTicket, but those are the conditions you have to accept if you want to use KeyGo.

 

[MrJeeves]

When I first started using KeyGo I asked Thameslink if it was OK to use EMR trains to St Pancras, they said it wasn’t recommended because of possible issues at the EMR gateline.

For context, I believe what they really meant here was whether it was okay to use a ticket on a smartcard that also has keyGo.

GTR don't get the tap in/out information from the EMR gateline, so if you had a flexible ticket loaded onto the smartcard alongside keyGo, GTR wouldn't know you'd tapped in/out and would charge you a penalty via keyGo despite having a ticket that covers the whole journey.

keyGo itself has never been valid on EMR, unfortunately.

 

[Timmy]

Thanks for the replies all, it is a bit disappointing and I guess I’ll have to buy a paper ticket on occasion. I do very much like the KeyGo though, fantastic to go past the queues and to have my senior railcard integrated in as well.

 

[etr221]

For context, I believe what they really meant here was whether it was okay to use a ticket on a smartcard that also has keyGo.

GTR don't get the tap in/out information from the EMR gateline, so if you had a flexible ticket loaded onto the smartcard alongside keyGo, GTR wouldn't know you'd tapped in/out and would charge you a penalty via keyGo despite having a ticket that covers the whole journey.

keyGo itself has never been valid on EMR, unfortunately.

What is the position on diverting Thameslink services into St Pancras HL when/if the Thameslink core is closed/blocked?

 

[MrJeeves]

What is the position on diverting Thameslink services into St Pancras HL when/if the Thameslink core is closed/blocked?

You can always "correct" journeys online, anyway, but if you're travelling regularly during one blockade, you can only amend a journey a certain number of times per month, so you'd have to contact GTR on the phone to fix it.

 

[miklcct]

For context, I believe what they really meant here was whether it was okay to use a ticket on a smartcard that also has keyGo.

GTR don't get the tap in/out information from the EMR gateline, so if you had a flexible ticket loaded onto the smartcard alongside keyGo, GTR wouldn't know you'd tapped in/out and would charge you a penalty via keyGo despite having a ticket that covers the whole journey.

keyGo itself has never been valid on EMR, unfortunately.

As GWR accepts KeyGo in the area Southern operates, why can't EMR or London Overground do the same as well? What's the difference between GWR and EMR / London Overground?

 

[MrJeeves]

As GWR accepts KeyGo in the area Southern operates, why can't EMR or London Overground do the same as well? What's the difference between GWR and EMR / London Overground?

It's just commercial agreements. Also no barriers at Dorking Deepdene, so no concerns about missing smartcard tap data.

 

[Vexed]

It's just commercial agreements. Also no barriers at Dorking Deepdene, so no concerns about missing smartcard tap data.

But for keyGo you need the tap data as tapping in and out is required, from standalone readers in this case.

It's clearly possible if GTR and EMR make an agreement, as the GWR-managed PAYG schemes in Bristol & Cornwall are valid on all GWR, XC and TfW services where available.

Going back to EMR on the south MML I wonder if keyGo PAYG fares go through ORCATS revenue spitting. It would seem odd if they don't but at the same time when it's not valid on EMR it seems pointless to bother with ORCATS, giving EMR money from someone who can't use their services.

Of course with all fares going to the Treasury it doesn't matter so much.

 

[Edvid]

Though the OP's query has been answered already, GTR explicitly refer to the EMR / St Pancras issue on their page as well, albeit w.r.t. season ticket holders specifically:

[Question] I have a season ticket on my Key Smartcard and regularly travel on East Midlands Trains* to St Pancras, is this a problem if I add keyGo?
[Answer] Yes. We recommend that you do not sign up to keyGo if you regularly travel to St Pancras with East Midlands Trains.* This is because we are unable to receive journey details from East Midlands Trains* and the system will therefore always treat your journey as Incomplete. To avoid an Incomplete Journey Charge, we recommend you do not add keyGo to your Key Smartcard in this instance.

[* Previous operator, but underlying issue remains unchanged.]

Going back to EMR on the south MML I wonder if keyGo PAYG fares go through ORCATS revenue spitting. It would seem odd if they don't but at the same time when it's not valid on EMR it seems pointless to bother with ORCATS, giving EMR money from someone who can't use their services.

Just considered this point myself - I would be surprised if keyGo revenue is split by ORCATS, Redhill-Dorking Deepdene aside.* keyGo predates the transfer of revenue risk from TOCs to the government; notwithstanding GTR being a management contract from the get-go, the previous franchise framework still applied to EMT - then EMR - before the pandemic.

[* Terms also say SWR accepts keyGo Dorking-Epsom, but this isn't mentioned elsewhere]

 

[Joe Paxton]

Hopefully the issue of smartcard (non-)interoperability is something that will eventually be addressed through GBR, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that! I think there's quite a jumble of different backend systems at work across the industry.

 

[tram21]

What is the position on diverting Thameslink services into St Pancras HL when/if the Thameslink core is closed/blocked?

When this happens you are never directed through the gateline due to the problems it would cause with this as an example. All tickets are either manually checked, or you tap on the oyster pad which is set up as being the Thameslink station, so would act the same as the downstairs ones.

 

[MrJeeves]

But for keyGo you need the tap data as tapping in and out is required, from standalone readers in this case.

Which is exactly why the validity on GWR is explicitly intended for connecting to Dorking Main for onward GTR travel.

When this happens you are never directed through the gateline due to the problems it would cause with this as an example. All tickets are either manually checked, or you tap on the oyster pad which is set up as being the Thameslink station, so would act the same as the downstairs ones.

If you don't get the tap data, you manually complete your journey online or by contacting GTR.

 

[Wallsendmag]

For context, I believe what they really meant here was whether it was okay to use a ticket on a smartcard that also has keyGo.

GTR don't get the tap in/out information from the EMR gateline, so if you had a flexible ticket loaded onto the smartcard alongside keyGo, GTR wouldn't know you'd tapped in/out and would charge you a penalty via keyGo despite having a ticket that covers the whole journey.

keyGo itself has never been valid on EMR, unfortunately.

I thought the card issuer always had to be sent the tap data but then again GTR have their own HOPS. I can certainly see LNER cards tapped on other TOCs gates

 

[OscarH]

GTR have their own HOPS

Oh dear

 

[Jan Mayen]

Oh dear

What does HOPS mean, please?

 

[Ediswan]

I thought the card issuer always had to be sent the tap data but then again GTR have their own HOPS. I can certainly see LNER cards tapped on other TOCs gates

HOPS ?

 

[Edvid]

HOPS is short for Host or Operator Processing System. (Or Host Operator or Processing System; I've seen both variations in ITSO Ltd literature.)

 

[Jan Mayen]

So not the thing Heritage Railways use, then...

HOPS Heritage Railways

HOPS is an online management system for heritage railways. Virtually all aspects of railway data processing and ancilliary administration are within the ultimate scope of HOPS.

www.hops.org.uk

 

[tram21]

So not the thing Heritage Railways use, then...

HOPS Heritage Railways

HOPS is an online management system for heritage railways. Virtually all aspects of railway data processing and ancilliary administration are within the ultimate scope of HOPS.

www.hops.org.uk

Was just thinking the same thing!

 

[Somewhere]

TOCs should never have been allowed to introduce ticketing systems which aren't operable between TOCs.
Apart from being anti-customer, it defeats the whole point of ITSO in the first place

 

[Wallsendmag]

TOCs should never have been allowed to introduce ticketing systems which aren't operable between TOCs.
Apart from being anti-customer, it defeats the whole point of ITSO in the first place

I think it's only GTR SE and ScotRail that aren't part of the RDG scheme

 

[signed]

TOCs should never have been allowed to introduce ticketing systems which aren't operable between TOCs.
Apart from being anti-customer, it defeats the whole point of ITSO in the first place

Isn't it only Scotrail (and all the various smartcards in Scotland) that are non-interoperable?

 

[Somewhere]

Isn't it only Scotrail (and all the various smartcards in Scotland) that are non-interoperable?

Not if pre-pay isn't usable between different operators, no. If you want to change trains at Britain's busiest railway station (Clapham Junction) it makes it useless

I think it's only GTR SE and ScotRail that aren't part of the RDG scheme

What's GTR SE?

 

[Edvid]

What's GTR SE?

Govia Thameslink Railway and Southeastern. (Not a combined entity)

 

[Somewhere]

Govia Thameslink Railway and Southeastern. (Not a combined entity)

Presumably that's because they both used to be Govia until £25m went missing?