Is Stratford upon Avon destined to remain as poorly connected as it is currently?

[VItraveller]

In my opinion, Stratford upon avon is one of the U.K.’s best tourist sites not only is it the birthplace of Shakespeare but it’s just generally a nice town.
I suspect the vast majority of people who visit though don’t use the train because it’s so poorly connected to the rest of the rail network, there are frequent services to Birmingham, but services to London and Leamington spa are intermittent.
is there any way the situation can be improved, or any future plans for the station, I know the honeyburn rail link has been cancelled now which could’ve given it a direct connection to Worcester and Cheltenham spa but how about extending one of the Leamington spa stoppers in peak times to Coventry or even Nuneaton?
another idea I had, which is completely out there is a service during summer and tourist seasons from Stratford to Oxford via Banbury, with a potential to extend further to either Reading, Milton Keynes or possibly Bristol.
Obviously that’s very unlikely to happen, but what other prospects are there?

 

[The exile]

Equally, it could be argued that the connections are poor because hardly anyone visits by rail. BR dabbled their toes in the water with the Stratford Pullman back in the (?) late 80s and (to mix metaphors) got their financial fingers burnt.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

It does seem that Stratford has been repeatedly screwed over by timetable changes that have reduced its direct services.
I'm sure in the dim and distant past, there were direct Thames Turbo services from Paddington to Stratford via Oxford and Banbury, and more recently at least several direct trains a day to/from Marylebone, now just a single late evening working in the London-bound direction only.

I'm sure there would be a market for reintroduction of direct Marylebone-Stratford services, but having also recently removed almost all direct services to Kidderminster/Stourbridge, it does appear that Chiltern are still in a period of post-Covid retrenchment, rather than looking to expand and grow their markets.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to link Leamington-Stratford and Leamington-Nuneaton services together, as I seem to recall there are a lot of signalling constraints on how the west-facing bays at Leamington Spa can be used, and you'd want to avoid blocking the through platforms.

 

[Djgr]

In my opinion, Stratford upon avon is one of the U.K.’s best tourist sites not only is it the birthplace of Shakespeare but it’s just generally a nice town.
I suspect the vast majority of people who visit though don’t use the train because it’s so poorly connected to the rest of the rail network, there are frequent services to Birmingham, but services to London and Leamington spa are intermittent.
is there any way the situation can be improved, or any future plans for the station, I know the honeyburn rail link has been cancelled now which could’ve given it a direct connection to Worcester and Cheltenham spa but how about extending one of the Leamington spa stoppers in peak times to Coventry or even Nuneaton?
another idea I had, which is completely out there is a service during summer and tourist seasons from Stratford to Oxford via Banbury, with a potential to extend further to either Reading, Milton Keynes or possibly Bristol.
Obviously that’s very unlikely to happen, but what other prospects are there?

To be fair, it is one easy change at Leamington Spa to and from London, with frequent services.

Elsewhere on the forum there are discussions about the importance or otherwise of direct trains, with very varied views.

 

[Fermiboson]

Geographically speaking it's simply not well placed. The Honeybourne rail link as you said would have enabled some justification for through services that call there, but as of now, it is awkwardly placed in the middle of nowhere. The majority market will be Birmingham - Stratford-u-Avon and Leamington - Stratford-u-Avon, which is West Midlands territory. Running direct trains from the east and south into Stratford will mean giving up markets such as Coventry, Solihul, Birmingham, etc. etc. which is not a good use of stock.

The economical way to do this is with a change - and really, it's not that bad except in late nights. The problem with change times here relates more to the lack of coordination between WM and CH timetables.

 

[cle]

I've often thought an hourly or bi-hourly (shared with Moor St) Chiltern service from Oxford would be a good link for Stratford.

I also think that Chiltern should re-up the services to Marylebone, especially now they are more of a semi-fast railway and less focused on e2e London-Brum sales. The previous service was always packed - and often very slow too, over 2 hours which is offputting. Linking it with Bicester cannot be a bad thing for tourists doing the things in that region either.

I definitely agree that Stratford has much more tourist potential if it was better served.

 

[Fermiboson]

I would like such a service, especially as it also relieves XC on Oxford - Banbury - Leamington. I’m not sure the business case currently works out.

 

[Energy]

It'd been an aspiration of Warwickshire County Council for a while to get a direct London service back to Stratford Upon Avon.

Most proposals include sacking off the current poor Leamington Spa - Birmingham Moor Street (1tp2h) or Stratford Upon Avon (1tp2h) service, and potentially extending the Banbury terminator (if it still runs).

There's also a decision as to whether a London - Stratford Upon Avon service or extending the Leamington Spa - Nuneaton service to Stratford would be better.

Stratford used to be served by GWR/FGW, the SRA moved it to Chiltern to make maps neater but they have never really wanted the service and always treated it as low priority. More details here.

 

[JonathanH]

The huge problem is that Banbury to Stratford via Leamington and Hatton is a 'long way round' compared to going direct, and an organised coach trip from London is better for tourists than going by train. Stratford is well linked from Birmingham.

Stratford used to be served by GWR/FGW, the SRA moved it to Chiltern to make maps neater but they have never really wanted the service and always treated it as low priority.

Difficult to see that running two trains from Marylebone to Birmingham and Stratford in opposite half hours is better than running them both to Birmingham given passenger flows.

That left Stratford as the destination of a stopper, and when the stopper was no longer justified, simply as a shuttle from Leamington. Simply not enough traffic to justify Stratford having its own service from London.

 

[The exile]

Once (if) Didcot - Oxford is electrified, an Oxford - Stratford stopper (as an extension of the Banbury shuttle) might be feasible.

 

[Starmill]

There used to be a 1732 from Stratford-upon-Avon which, at December 2019, went through to London Marylebone express, arriving 1941. Latterly it was cut and connected into the 1752 Birmingham Snow Hill to London Marylebone. Both in 2019 were express from Bicester North to London Marylebone just three minutes apart by the end of the line.

Today, the service from Stratford-upon-Avon doesn't run at all. The 1752 from Birmingham Snow Hill still runs but takes the path previously used by the separate 1903 Bicester North to London Marylebone, and picks up its calls at Haddenham & Thame Parkway, Princes Risborough, Saunderton and High Wycombe. It therefore takes 24 minutes longer to reach London from Warwickshire.

This is a good case study for how three separate services have become just one in order to slash unit and driver diagrams right back and lower the cost base. As a result there's now nothing from Stratford-upon-Avon until 1829 if you're finishing around 1700. You can get the 1708 to Dorridge, and spend half an hour there if you like, but this doesn't get you back to London until 2055, an hour and fifteen minutes later than the old through service. If you can't get to the station for 1708 you have to simply sit and wait for the 1829.

I think some stakeholders didn't like the fact that the old 1618 from Stratford-upon-Avon terminated at Hatton too, despite it having a connection for Warwick and Leamington Spa. This service now departs 10 minutes later and does continue on past Hatton to Warwick and Leamington Spa, and also has time to serve Stratford Parkway and all of the villages, which it previously couldn't.

It'd been an aspiration of Warwickshire County Council for a while to get a direct London service back to Stratford Upon Avon.

Most proposals include sacking off the current poor Leamington Spa - Birmingham Moor Street (1tp2h) or Stratford Upon Avon (1tp2h) service, and potentially extending the Banbury terminator (if it still runs).

There's also a decision as to whether a London - Stratford Upon Avon service or extending the Leamington Spa - Nuneaton service to Stratford would be better.

Stratford used to be served by GWR/FGW, the SRA moved it to Chiltern to make maps neater but they have never really wanted the service and always treated it as low priority. More details here.

It would make far more sense to me to just try to improve the Stratford-upon-Avon - Leamington Spa service to hourly. The section between Bearley Jn and Hatton West Jn only takes 11 minutes with two stops and half a minute of allowance so 2tph should be fairly easy to achieve. However there is a bit of a risk of clashes at Hatton with freight, CrossCountry and peak West Midlands Railway services. I also don't think trains from Stratford-upon-Avon can access platform 1 at Hatton which is pretty limiting in terms of having to wait on platform 3. I'd guess keeping platform 1 at Leamington Spa available for the shuttle trains to use all day shouldn't be too hard?

The other question is if the train ran non-stop from Stratford-upon-Avon to Hatton then Warwick then Leamington Spa could it do a full round trip in 60 minutes? To achieve this it'd need to come down to say 27 min each way - my guess is that's not achievable without track work at Hatton. It could also be really poor for the villages as they'd then get no service to Leamington Spa at all, not that hardly anyone uses them anyway, and the Parkway.

 

[Energy]

Difficult to see that running two trains from Marylebone to Birmingham and Stratford in opposite half hours is better than running them both to Birmingham given passenger flows.

Of course, any Stratford service wouldn't affect Birmingham still having 2tph.

It would make far more sense to me to just try to improve the Stratford-upon-Avon - Leamington Spa service to hourly.

Agreed, waiting 2 hours between trains limits the traffic the shuttle would get.

The other question is if the train ran non-stop from Stratford-upon-Avon to Hatton then Warwick then Leamington Spa could it do a full round trip in 60 minutes? To achieve this it'd need to come down to say 27 min each way - my guess is that's not achievable without track work at Hatton. It could also be really poor for the villages as they'd then get no service to Leamington Spa at all, not that hardly anyone uses them anyway, and the Parkway.

Hatton being 10mph is an obvious target but infrastructure improvements are always expensive.

Ideally, you'd run Nuneaton - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Stratford-upon-Avon as one service but timetabling the reverse at Leamington Spa would be difficult. Having the Nuneaton and Stratford service arrive at Leamington at roughly the same time to connect doesn't seem impossible.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course, any Stratford service wouldn't affect Birmingham still having 2tph.

Yes, but the point I am making is that once you run two Birmingham services in an hour with 'express' pathing, it is somewhat difficult to justify a separate one for Stratford.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, but the point I am making is that once you run two Birmingham services in an hour with 'express' pathing, it is somewhat difficult to justify a separate one for Stratford.

One of them could of course be the rear portion of one of the Birmingham services which divides at Leamington Spa. That would solve the issue from a capacity perspective on the Bicester - London and Leamington Spa - Stratford-upon-Avon sections, with a four or five car leading from London and a two or three car trailing. It may be slightly worse than currently between Leamington Spa and Birmingham however, which is obviously a negative.

However, there's clearly not enough units currently in the Turbostar fleet to be able to resource that all day, it would make the diagrams very inflexible because they'd always have to be the correct way around, and it would add risk to performance. It would also need an extra few minutes to do the attachment, during which the main platforms at Leamington Spa would be being occupied. More sets out on the Stratford-upon-Avon services would also need more guards as well as more drivers.

Ideally, you'd run Nuneaton - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Stratford-upon-Avon as one service but timetabling the reverse at Leamington Spa would be difficult. Having the Nuneaton and Stratford service arrive at Leamington at roughly the same time to connect doesn't seem impossible.

Another possibility would be a replacement bus from Warwick Parkway that serves Stratford Parkway and then Stratford-upon-Avon. This should be able to achieve a thirty minute timing without difficulty including the one intermediate stop. It could be timed for the London trains which currently do not have a train connection at Leamington Spa. A two-year trial funded via the Chiltern franchise could gather data on the demand for a train service every hour. You could ditch Stratford Parkway and cut the time to 25 minutes.

Obviously in a sensible world there'd already be a bus that did Coventry - Warwick Parkway - Stratford Parkway - Stratford-upon-Avon fast, and probably hourly not two-hourly. But we are where we are. Transport for Wales are doing it like this on the Aberystwyth - Carmarthen route...

 

[Energy]

One of them could of course be the rear portion of one of the Birmingham services which divides at Leamington Spa. That would solve the issue from a capacity perspective on the Bicester - London and Leamington Spa - Stratford-upon-Avon sections, with a four or five car leading from London and a two or three car trailing. It may be slightly worse than currently between Leamington Spa and Birmingham however, which is obviously a negative.

Definitely, London - Birmingham isn't a big market on Chiltern with London - Leamington Spa being bigger. However, a significant number of passengers are Leamington Spa - Birmingham.

Another possibility would be a replacement bus from Warwick Parkway that serves Stratford Parkway and then Stratford-upon-Avon. This should be able to achieve a thirty minute timing without difficulty including the one intermediate stop. It could be timed for the London trains which currently do not have a train connection at Leamington Spa. A two-year trial funded via the Chiltern franchise could gather data on the demand for a train service every hour. You could ditch Stratford Parkway and cut the time to 25 minutes.

Bus/train hybrid journeys are hindered because most journey planners do not show buses. Marking it as a train service that is permanently rail replacement buses could be a lazy way to sort this for a trial.

 

[Starmill]

Bus/train hybrid journeys are hindered because most journey planners do not show buses. Marking it as a train service that is permanently rail replacement buses could be a lazy way to sort this for a trial.

Yes. It's pretty much the only way to get people to do it, because otherwise there's no protection on missed connections. There must be through fares at the same terms and comparable prices as the fares on trains would be.

It could be registered as a stage carriage service on top, which would permit it to be permanent, or it could be temporary only and registered as a long-term rail replacement service.

 

[JonathanH]

Another possibility would be a replacement bus from Warwick Parkway that serves Stratford Parkway and then Stratford-upon-Avon. This should be able to achieve a thirty minute timing without difficulty including the one intermediate stop.

Still slower than running a non-stop coach from Banbury to Stratford-on-Avon given the 30 minute rail travel time to Warwick Parkway from Banbury.

I think the issue with any bus link is what the target market is, how many of those travellers exist and how predisposed to a bus link they would be. My guess is that many of those people who live in Stratford-on-Avon and need to get to London drive to a suitable railhead. Those visiting Stratford-on-Avon might not want the inconvenience of a bus link.

 

[Starmill]

Still slower than running a non-stop coach from Banbury to Stratford-on-Avon given the 30 minute rail travel time to Warwick Parkway from Banbury.

I think the issue with any bus link is what the target market is, how many of those travellers exist and how predisposed to a bus link they would be. My guess is that many of those people who live in Stratford-on-Avon and need to get to London drive to a suitable railhead. Those visiting Stratford-on-Avon might not want the inconvenience of a bus link.

If that were your view as a local politician I'd say the best way to incentivise lower-carbon travel for tourism or for outwards long-distance markets would be to attract a coach operator to run some new commercial coaches to the town. The options for an improved rail service aren't there on the current infrastructure, beyond tinkering with how long the DMUs are and exactly how connections work out it's not feasible. Upgrading the junction at Hatton might change things but that'd be 5-10 years to delivery and presumably low priority. It would depend on its current condition and when it was last renewed which I do not know.

For example Worcester Crowngate - Stratford-upon-Avon Railway Station, Banbury Bus Station, London Heathrow Airport, London Victoria.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm not sure I see the market for a rail service from London.
Its not that big a town, and the station is a few hundred metres away from the touristy bits along a busy and ugly main road.
I suspect a large proportion of the tourists will be on a coach, and Stratford will be a 'tick it off' photo stop for a couple of hours of a tour. If you are a London based holiday tourist then its not really worth a whole day of your trip. And the market will be massively seasonal and weather reliant.
If there was a market I would have thought Chiltern would have already tried weekend only extensions of the Banbury service, maybe marketed to serve Stratford and Warwick Castle.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure I see the market for a rail service from London.
Its not that big a town, and the station is a few hundred metres away from the touristy bits along a busy and ugly main road.
I suspect a large proportion of the tourists will be on a coach, and Stratford will be a 'tick it off' photo stop for a couple of hours of a tour. If you are a London based holiday tourist then its not really worth a whole day of your trip. And the market will be massively seasonal and weather reliant.
If there was a market I would have thought Chiltern would have already tried weekend only extensions of the Banbury service, maybe marketed to serve Stratford and Warwick Castle.

Personally I think that the market that there is can be satisfied by a 10-minute change at Leamington Spa quite happily. I can understand wanting a more frequent service between Warwick / Leamington Spa and Stratford-upon-Avon for it's own sake, also.

You can fill 4-6 hours in Stratford-upon-Avon fairly comfortably if you can afford to dine out / have a drink, as there's quite a few different places to see, small shops, pubs and restaurants, and so on. You probably can't fill longer than that without an evening performance or something.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think a London-Stratford Avon service would be handy, and should be reintroduced, even hourly, it could be London-Banbury-Leamington-Warwick-Stratford Avon.

 

[cle]

I think a London-Stratford Avon service would be handy, and should be reintroduced, even hourly, it could be London-Banbury-Leamington-Warwick-Stratford Avon.

I think that would be useful too, instead of shuttles to/from Leamington. But potentially an Oxford service also.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Personally I think that the market that there is can be satisfied by a 10-minute change at Leamington Spa quite happily. I can understand wanting a more frequent service between Warwick / Leamington Spa and Stratford-upon-Avon for it's own sake, also.

Better to change at Warwick - it'll be the same platform instead of having a very tightly timed long slog through the subway at Leamington and then all the way along the other platform...

 

[RT4038]

I think that would be useful too, instead of shuttles to/from Leamington. But potentially an Oxford service also.

Stratford is a small town. It is not 'on the way to' anywhere substantial that doesn't already have a good train connection. The hinterland is very rural and affluent, with high level of car ownership, to travel to Banbury and Warwick Parkway stations, or to Cotswold line stations. There are a lot of visitors from London, but many are foreign tourists coming by coach, to whom travelling to a London station before taking a train to Stratford would not be convenient. Those tourists travelling independently would want to travel on the same train and return on the same train (as it would be a fairly long journey for a day trip), and traffic at other times would be thin, hence the connecting shuttle is a more economical proposition. From Birmingham there is good train service already.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Birmingham there is good train service already.

There is indeed. However, it quite often takes the best part of an hour to get to/from Birmingham Snow Hill.

 

[Starmill]

Better to change at Warwick - it'll be the same platform instead of having a very tightly timed long slog through the subway at Leamington and then all the way along the other platform...

Yes Warwick or Warwick Parkway can be better provided you're using two services that call there.

 

[Meerkat]

You can fill 4-6 hours in Stratford-upon-Avon fairly comfortably if you can afford to dine out / have a drink, as there's quite a few different places to see, small shops, pubs and restaurants, and so on. You probably can't fill longer than that without an evening performance or something.

Would that market go by train though? It seemed busiest down by the river, and the people there seemed to have a lot of stuff and kids (ie they would want the car). Or they were retirees and probably wouldn't pay full fare, hurting the business case.
I was surprised how small the interesting bit was. If you live in London it isn't worth a five hour round trip unless you really want to tick off the Shakespeare connection. If I hadn't been going to the football I would have been pretty disappointed!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think that would be useful too, instead of shuttles to/from Leamington. But potentially an Oxford service also.

Yes an Oxford service would be good too, ideally this would run all the way to Paddington.

My hypothetical Chiltern service would call additionally at Bicester North.

Stratford is a small town. It is not 'on the way to' anywhere substantial that doesn't already have a good train connection. The hinterland is very rural and affluent, with high level of car ownership, to travel to Banbury and Warwick Parkway stations, or to Cotswold line stations. There are a lot of visitors from London, but many are foreign tourists coming by coach, to whom travelling to a London station before taking a train to Stratford would not be convenient. Those tourists travelling independently would want to travel on the same train and return on the same train (as it would be a fairly long journey for a day trip), and traffic at other times would be thin, hence the connecting shuttle is a more economical proposition. From Birmingham there is good train service already.

I wouldn’t describe Stratford as a small town, but granted it’s not a large town like Banbury, but the fact that it’s a busy tourist town that’s constantly busy day in day out warrants a service to London, even 1tph

 

[Starmill]

Would that market go by train though? It seemed busiest down by the river, and the people there seemed to have a lot of stuff and kids (ie they would want the car). Or they were retirees and probably wouldn't pay full fare, hurting the business case.
I was surprised how small the interesting bit was. If you live in London it isn't worth a five hour round trip unless you really want to tick off the Shakespeare connection. If I hadn't been going to the football I would have been pretty disappointed!

It's 2h 11m northbound and 2h 14m southbound, with approximately 10 minutes of that the connection at Leamington Spa. Yes 4h 25m travel in a day is a lot but it's perfectly doable as a day trip? Loads of people do day trips from London to Bournemouth, York, Liverpool, Littlehampton, all similar journey times?

 

[cle]

Many people will stay the night too, especially if seeing a play from London.

Or continue on to somewhere else (Warwick, Bicester, Oxford obviously - all tourist draws) - plus the option of a day trip from an Oxford base also.