Isle of Man Heritage Railway consultation

[Belfastmarty]

As has already been documented elsewhere, the Isle of Man's Heritage Railways are currently the subject of a major review being undertaken by SYSTRA, which could have serious implications for their future.

The cynic in me thinks these type of consultations rarely lead to a positive outcome, and I'd far rather the money being used for the review was spent on the actual railways themselves.

However, I'd urge anyone who has the interests of the Island's railways at heart to participate and advocate for a positive future for the island's systems.

The consultation can be found here:

Isle of Man Heritage Railways Independent Review and Economic Impact Assessment - Cabinet Office of the Isle of Man Government - Citizen Space​

Find and participate in consultations run by the Cabinet Office of the Isle of Man Government
consult.gov.im

and the link

IOM consultation

The closing date for all submissions is 13th August 2023.

 

[Western 52]

I've certainly made a very positive response! I visit the island regularly, mainly for the railways. It's vital they are retained for future generations to enjoy and learn from. Many unique aspects of the railways which must be preserved.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Done... and I fired a torpedo at them...

I should point out that without these railways and the tramway I simply would not bother to visit the IoM at all and would just go somewhere else and spend my money there instead.

 

[8A Rail]

However, there is more obvious issue though, it is expensive to travel to the Island, let alone thinking about accommodation. I live in Liverpool and we love to go back, but just too expensive to even think about it.

 

[John Luxton]

However, there is more obvious issue though, it is expensive to travel to the Island, let alone thinking about accommodation. I live in Liverpool and we love to go back, but just too expensive to even think about it.

Fares from Liverpool, in particular if you go as a foot passenger can be very cheap, but you do need to plan ahead and book early. The dreaded fluid pricing kicks in if you leave it to the last minute. I paid £56 for the trip the other day to take the photos as I only booked it a couple of days in advance.

I travel back and forth regularly for nothing more than the pleasure of a sail (I like ships as much as trains). I have had two day returns this season from Liverpool to Douglas for £32, also one from Heysham for £35. Several others which I have still to use are under £45.

Later this month I am going over for a few days and have a return booked for £56.

To put things into context - I visited the Island for the first time in 1994 when SEACAT ISLE OF MAN appeared. A day trip then cost £25 to £30. Had a day out on PS WAVERLEY the other week cost £65.00.

There is a myth about Steam Packet fares being high - but that is because so many people compare IOMSPCO fares with those charged by English Channel operators who operate over much shorter distances.

 

[8A Rail]

Fares from Liverpool, in particular if you go as a foot passenger can be very cheap, but you do need to plan ahead and book early. The dreaded fluid pricing kicks in if you leave it to the last minute. I paid £56 for the trip the other day to take the photos as I only booked it a couple of days in advance.

I travel back and forth regularly for nothing more than the pleasure of a sail (I like ships as much as trains). I have had two day returns this season from Liverpool to Douglas for £32, also one from Heysham for £35. Several others which I have still to use are under £45.

Later this month I am going over for a few days and have a return booked for £56.

To put things into context - I visited the Island for the first time in 1994 when SEACAT ISLE OF MAN appeared. A day trip then cost £25 to £30. Had a day out on PS WAVERLEY the other week cost £65.00.

There is a myth about Steam Packet fares being high - but that is because so many people compare IOMSPCO fares with those charged by English Channel operators who operate over much shorter distances.

Thank you for your input but my reference is nothing to do with day trips, sorry. When been previously it has been for a holiday, at least a week and more often than not took the car over too! Likewise I don't and never compare with English Channel operators as I don't use them. Bottom line, travelling over there along with accommodation is not cheap regardless whether it is in advance or nearer the time you wish to travel.

PS: My wife and I love the Island, (her father was a Manxman, never lost his accent and his ashes were scattered at Peel breakwater) been a few times over the years in times gone by (I first visited in 1975) but the reality, IOM has priced themselves out of consideration for another holiday, it IS expensive.

 

[Egg Centric]

Thank you for your input but my reference is nothing to do with day trips, sorry. When been previously it has been for a holiday, at least a week and more often than not took the car over too! Likewise I don't and never compare with English Channel operators as I don't use them. Bottom line, travelling over there along with accommodation is not cheap regardless whether it is in advance or nearer the time you wish to travel.

PS: My wife and I love the Island, (her father was a Manxman, never lost his accent and his ashes were scattered at Peel breakwater) been a few times over the years in times gone by (I first visited in 1975) but the reality, IOM has priced themselves out of consideration for another holiday, it IS expensive.

Indeed I can't imagine visiting the Isle of Man (where I got married) without a car given it's one of the few places in the world with a sensible national speed "limit". When they put the mountain road one way during TT week there really is nothing quite like it anywhere on earth.

IMO what they need to do is increase the heritage service frequency considerably so that they are genuinely practical solutions for locals. If I lived in say Castletown or Port Erin I'd probably use the steam railway to visit Douglas if it operated early in the morning and into the evening - but really it doesn't. There seems to be plenty of capacity there with a bit of imagination, perhaps with rail cars outside of "tourist" times.

And if they don't have the money to do that, perhaps they could raise inheritance/capital gains tax to 3% or something...

 

[John Luxton]

Thank you for your input but my reference is nothing to do with day trips, sorry. When been previously it has been for a holiday, at least a week and more often than not took the car over too! Likewise I don't and never compare with English Channel operators as I don't use them. Bottom line, travelling over there along with accommodation is not cheap regardless whether it is in advance or nearer the time you wish to travel.

PS: My wife and I love the Island, (her father was a Manxman, never lost his accent and his ashes were scattered at Peel breakwater) been a few times over the years in times gone by (I first visited in 1975) but the reality, IOM has priced themselves out of consideration for another holiday, it IS expensive.

Interesting perception of accommodation prices I generally find places I have stayed at have been around the same a I have paid in the UK in Wales, Devon and Cornwall.

 

[matt]

I'm going over for 3 nights at the end of the month for the later part of the transport festival. Sharing with a friend I'm only paying £45 per person per night so not overly expensive considering it is the UK school holidays. I think I paid just over £50 each as a foot passenger from Liverpool but that was booked a few weeks ago.

 

[8A Rail]

Cheers both of you for your input but as an example, £360 a week in September or @ £274 in October (two people and car) for the Ferry alone still makes it expensive and that is not allowing for the cost of accommodation, even it is compatible with location in SW England. Likewise 'Car Hire' is a none starter as you pay far more than taking your own car over and that does not include On Foot Ferry cost either.

 

[philthetube]

I would never take my car. £58 for a weekly pass which includes bus, steam railway, electric railway horse drawn trams and snaefell mountain railway, £58 is not much more than you would expect to spend in a day at many UK heritage railways. Buses are decent and seem reliable when I have used them.

If going to the island for the heritage transport Douglas is the best option for a base.

 

[8A Rail]

I appreciate your input but what is unknown to others, I've been to the Isle of Man many times over the years, the last occasion over 10 years ago sadly but always went in Spring time and the car came too. One of the reasons for the car, I enjoy photographing the Manx Steam and having that freedom, I was able to record it at many locations especially away from the stations. Sadly you can't do that relying on public transport unfortunately. Also, it gave us the freedom to go where we want and when, also numerous locations which includes the west coast of the Island. That is how we enjoy out breaks / holidays. The 'Go Explore' card is good value for money (£57), I don't doubt that especially you can ride on all three systems but to make the most of it as you said, you need to based in Douglas to make the most of it. I will leave the matter there and hopefully others reading this, just may encourage them to go if that is type of break / holiday they are looking for. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Belfastmarty]

Certainly getting to the IoM, and the associated cost, has always been an issue given it's geographical location, and especially from my side of the Irish Sea where connections are fewer. However, given the quality of the railway attractions available IMO it's a cost worth paying.

The availability of a card for use on all forms of public transport, both buses and trains, is a major plus, and the bus service is sufficiently good to make that a viable option for many. I've been going to the island for 50+ years and have only needed to hire a car on a couple of occasions, but it's horses for courses I guess.

Getting back to the railways, I've never been convinced that it would really be possible to use the railways as a commuter/local service without destroying what makes them special in the first place. Sure, you could convert the MER to modern low floor trams and maybe extend it along Douglas Promenade, but it's the largely original nature of the rolling stock and infrastructure which gives the railways their unique character. Seeing a Winter Saloon sitting in Laxey beside a Bombardier Flexicity or whatever really wouldn't be the same.

As an enthusiast I'd like to see: more frequent service on all systems but especially the IMR, restoration of more historical rolling stock on all systems and (in fantasy-IOM-railway-world) the reopening of the line to Peel.

Back in the real world I really don't know what the current review can propose or indeed deliver, especially given the stretched budgets which seem to be all-pervasive. In my view the last few years have been very mixed for the railways in the IOM, with big positives such as the restoration of ratchet car 18, but on the other hand the promenade reconstruction which has been pretty catastrophic for the horse tramway. We shall find out what the future holds in the fullness of time.

 

[Krokodil]

I appreciate your input but what is unknown to others, I've been to the Isle of Man many times over the years, the last occasion over 10 years ago sadly but always went in Spring time and the car came too. One of the reasons for the car, I enjoy photographing the Manx Steam and having that freedom, I was able to record it at many locations especially away from the stations. Sadly you can't do that relying on public transport unfortunately. Also, it gave us the freedom to go where we want and when, also numerous locations which includes the west coast of the Island. That is how we enjoy out breaks / holidays. The 'Go Explore' card is good value for money (£57), I don't doubt that especially you can ride on all three systems but to make the most of it as you said, you need to based in Douglas to make the most of it. I will leave the matter there and hopefully others reading this, just may encourage them to go if that is type of break / holiday they are looking for. Thanks again for your input.

I went a few years ago with my parents and their car broke down on the way. Managed a full week of using public transport to get to photo spots, while staying in Laxey.

 

[Rick1984]

I went a year ago. Thought my flight and accomodation on Douglas seafront, in a nice hotel, was very reasonable. As was the multi travel ticket including all heritage lines. The electric railway was the highlight for me, way it snakes along the coast. Unfortunately the steam train forgot to stop at the airport on my way home so I missed that novelty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting back to the railways, I've never been convinced that it would really be possible to use the railways as a commuter/local service without destroying what makes them special in the first place. Sure, you could convert the MER to modern low floor trams and maybe extend it along Douglas Promenade, but it's the largely original nature of the rolling stock and infrastructure which gives the railways their unique character. Seeing a Winter Saloon sitting in Laxey beside a Bombardier Flexicity or whatever really wouldn't be the same.

Not the *same*, but is that not basically what Blackpool did? Modern trams for the day to day service (very well used) but still able to run heritage tours?

Extended to the ferry terminal that would potentially be very useful, though it'd be at the expense of the horse tramway unless they regauged some trams and just horse-hauled them along the normal tramway between electric cars.

 

[John Luxton]

I think there could be a compromise between providing a commuter service with modern stock and maintaining the railway heritage.

MER needs a couple of modern low floor cars. People have to be quite agile to board the current stock. When my late mother ended up on wheels in her latter years the rigmarole of having to phone up and arrange for the accessible trailer to be attached to a service car was rather inconvenient, though I did it several times. Also notice had to be given as the batteries powering the lift had to be charged. Usual arrangement was to phone Laxey station a few days before. The trailer normally being kept at Laxey shed.

Extension to the Sea Terminal would be feasible. The part of the horse tramway to Broadway has been relayed with heavy duty rail which I understand was some of the unused new rail bought for the aborted Merseytram project. During the main season the horse trams could operate along the promenade between say 09:30 and 16:30 with electric services being provided before and after.

As for the Isle of Man Railway the biggest mistake with that was made in the 1970s. I always wonder why the rather circuitous and longer southern route to Port Erin was retained whilst the shorter, more direct route to Peel was closed. That would have lent itself to be a much more successful commuter route with lower running costs than what we have now.

The railway needs a diesel railcar. They need to either complete the rebuild on the County Donegal railcars and run them as a pair for off season and possible commuter work or build a new railcar - perhaps two single unit one person operated car operated on a pay as you enter basis.

Before people question whether there would be a loss of attraction in operating modern rolling stock - just look to the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland much of their rolling stock is modern.

 

[matt]

Three reopened for @Belfastmarty to post an update

 

[Belfastmarty]

The SYSTRA report has now been published here . It seems surprisingly positive and in particular mentions the economic impact of the railways (£2.88 input to the ecomomy for every £1 in subvention). One less helpful recommendation is to single Laxey - Ramsey and build a parallel cycle track. However it does come out in favour of the reinstatement of the full horse tramway line to the Sea Terminal (possibly stating the obvious) and also mentions the (albeit ambitious) possibility of a Ramsey - Douglas commuter service.

 

[30907]

The SYSTRA report has now been published here . It seems surprisingly positive and in particular mentions the economic impact of the railways (£2.88 input to the ecomomy for every £1 in subvention). One less helpful recommendation is to single Laxey - Ramsey and build a parallel cycle track

Have I misread this? I thought it argued against this, as it wouldn't attract enough cyclists to be cost-effective.

 

[Belfastmarty]

Have I misread this? I thought it argued against this, as it wouldn't attract enough cyclists to be cost-effective.

You're correct, I misinterpreted this in my initial skim through. The heading says "Recommendation 11 – Laxey – Ramsey Cycle track" whereas the detail is actually argues for NO cycle track. That's better news, and they also argue there is no case for the withdrawal of services between Castletown and Port Erin, so the network stays intact.

 

[Western 52]

Overall it looks very positive. I note the bit about the cost of the Go Explore tickets needing to rise though! I've used them many times.

Commuter services on the MER? I think the speed limit is about 20mph, so that doesn't sound feasible, unless a modern unit could run a bit faster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Commuter services on the MER? I think the speed limit is about 20mph, so that doesn't sound feasible, unless a modern unit could run a bit faster.

Street tramways are usually slow. The Metrolink Ashton line isn't much quicker.

 

[Western 52]

Street tramways are usually slow. The Metrolink Ashton line isn't much quicker.

Buses take about 50 minutes between Ramsey and Douglas, the MER is about 75 minutes. The tram will certainly need to be faster than now to be competitive. It would be amazing if this could be done though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The report is correct to highlight there is a decent commuter market between Ramsey and Douglas, but I'm not sure that the MER will ever be the correct way to meet it. The X3 Manx Express- which goes over the Mountain- is well-loaded and I don't see why anyone would switch from that to the MER. Especially as the MER isn't exactly the most comfortable of railways- I'm always glad to be getting off by the time I've got to Ramsey from Douglas.

Running a proper commuter service from Port Erin to Douglas wouldn't have the same level of competition from the bus, though, as the A5 road in a morning is basically a traffic jam from Ballasalla all the way to Douglas.

I thought the report was, overall, reasonably well considered. They were surprisingly circumspect about getting the horse tramway back to the Victoria Clock, but that is probably because of political sensitivities relating to the refurbishment/destruction of Douglas promenade. Funding was included for a single track line from the War Memorial to the Victoria Clock, and the space has been reserved alongside the sunken gardens, but then that funding was used to cover massive cost overruns elsewhere in the project. So now the reserved space alongside the sunken gardens is just a weed-ridden mess.

They're probably right about the cost of the Go Explore tickets though. Given an all-day bus ticket is £7 and given that Douglas-Snaefell return is £18, I would say the price of the Go Explore ticket at £19 for one day is about five pounds too low.

I just hope they don't pay so much attention to the residents' annual season ticket, which is £70 for the year. Funnily enough I'm massively in favour of them keeping it at that price!

 

[John R]

That’s really good news, and a very sensible outcome imo.

 

[Krokodil]

SYSTRA report: Strategy needed to develop heritage railway to 2040

Heritage rail network benefits Manx economy by around £17m per year

www.manxradio.com

SYSTRA found that for every £1 spent in subvention and capital investment on the heritage railways there is a benefit to the Manx economy of £2.88.

SYSTRA argues capital expenditure on the railways should be temporarily increased 'for a small number of years'.

If a commuter service is to be viable (rather than a novelty as per the breakfast dining trains), it needs to use modern rolling stock running at a competitive speed to match the buses, continuing into town via the horse tramway infrastructure, ideally extending it to the centre of Douglas or even connecting directly onto the IoMSR metals - as per Nordhausen Route 10.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a commuter service is to be viable (rather than a novelty as per the breakfast dining trains), it needs to use modern rolling stock running at a competitive speed to match the buses, continuing into town via the horse tramway.

Isn't the track gauge different?

If not, I suppose you could get a narrow gauge battery/DC OHLE FLIRT going on it if you had enough money for one, it is a bit like a Swiss narrow gauge railway in style.

New speculative thread to continue this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/isle-of-man-railways-public-transport-potential.260880/

 

[Krokodil]

Isn't the track gauge different?

If not, I suppose you could get a narrow gauge battery/DC OHLE FLIRT going on it if you had enough money for one, it is a bit like a Swiss narrow gauge railway in style.

No, it's 3ft just like the MER and IoMSR. You may be thinking of the Snaefell Mountain Railway which is 3ft 6.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Just have to keep the horses clear while the commuter tram is running down the street… AIUI they were really not OK with the battery-powered restored cable tram running up and down with no horse on it.