Leeds/Bradford Ex to Poole - route 1970s

[deltic]

I recently picked up a copy of Nottingham station arrivals departures book for 1970 and I was wondering what route one of the summer Saturday services took.

The 09.10 from Bradford Exchange/ 09.43 from Leeds to Poole ran via Nottingham and after Nottingham called at Loughbrough, Leicester and then Basingstoke. What route would it have taken between Leicester and Basingstoke?

 

[Taunton]

via Hendon, the Dudding Hill freight line to Acton, the further freight link to Brentford, thence via Feltham, Virginia Water, Chertsey, the link to Byfleet, and the SW main line. Still fairly well used for freight.

 

[deltic]

via Hendon, the Dudding Hill freight line to Acton, the further freight link to Brentford, thence via Feltham, Virginia Water, Chertsey, the link to Byfleet, and the SW main line. Still fairly well used for freight.

Thanks, would the route via Northampton, Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction be too congested - as presumably that would be the quicker route?

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks, would the route via Northampton, Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction be too congested - as presumably that would be the quicker route?

If they had needed an alternative route, it might have gone via Nuneaton avoiding line, Saltley / Bordesley Jn, Leamington, Oxford & Reading west curve.

 

[ac6000cw]

If they had needed an alternative route, it might have gone via Nuneaton avoiding line, Saltley / Bordesley Jn, Leamington, Oxford & Reading west curve.

That's an interesting possibility, since this could easily have been a service that originally used the Great Central route from Yorkshire (look at the calling pattern, including Bradford Exchange) to Banbury, thence Oxford etc.

 

[Taunton]

Thanks, would the route via Northampton, Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction be too congested - as presumably that would be the quicker route?

You couldn't (and still can't) get from the West London Line through Olympia directly onto the SW main line. You can get onto the Windsor Lines on the north side of Clapham Jc station, and you can get onto the Brighton Line on the south side, but not onto the SW main in the middle. So anything that comes off the West London still has to go via Barnes, Feltham, Chertsey etc. This was never a problem for freight going by this route in the old days as they would generally want to go into Feltham yard anyway (and is part of why the big SW marshalling yard was built post-WW1 in Feltham, to suit cross-London freight, rather than on the SW main itself).

I also guess that in 1970 Midland crews knew the way through Dudding Hill to Feltham, whereas via Northampton they would have needed to change crews there, and then again at Feltham.

That's an interesting possibility, since this could easily have been a service that originally used the Great Central route from Yorkshire (look at the calling pattern, including Bradford Exchange) to Banbury, thence Oxford etc.

Bradford to Bournemouth etc summer Saturday services until the early 1960s typically went via Bath and the S&D. This had always suited the Midland (and later LMS) as it would be on their tracks throughout. There were multiple services on summer Saturdays from Yorkshire to Bournemouth that went this way.

 

[Bevan Price]

Originally Posted by Bevan Price View Post
If they had needed an alternative route, it might have gone via Nuneaton avoiding line, Saltley / Bordesley Jn, Leamington, Oxford & Reading west curve.

That's an interesting possibility, since this could easily have been a service that originally used the Great Central route from Yorkshire (look at the calling pattern, including Bradford Exchange) to Banbury, thence Oxford etc.

By the 1978 timetable, the Nottingham - Poole went via Leicester, Birmingham New St., Leamington, Oxford, etc.

 

[30907]

Bradford to Bournemouth etc summer Saturday services until the early 1960s typically went via Bath and the S&D. This had always suited the Midland (and later LMS) as it would be on their tracks throughout. There were multiple services on summer Saturdays from Yorkshire to Bournemouth that went this way.

Indeed, plus the amazing Cleethorpes Bournemouth (later Exmouth and Sidmouth) which was an expansion of a weekday CLP-Birmingham via Nottingham.

However, the GC carried plenty of SR traffic too - 6 trains SO compared with just the Newcastle-Bournemouth. Including one from Bradford Exchange, and all of them serving both Nottingham and Leicester. I concur that the train we are discussing was a GC replacement.

As Taunton says, Olympia wasn't a preferred route to/from the LSW, but was busy enough with trains to Kent and the LBSC, from the Midland, the LNW and the GC.

 

[SouthDevonian]

This train and the corresponding return service must have had more route changes than any other. The PSUL (Passenger Services over Unusual Lines) website includes many of the details in its year by year listing from 1963.

In the late 1950s and early 1960s they used much of the old Great Central route (inc running powers over the L&Y between Bradford & Penistone), ie. Halifax, Huddersfield, Penistone, Sheffield Vic, Woodford Halse to Banbury.

In 1963, a portion from Leeds was added (presumably at Huddersfield) to compensate for the loss of the Midland line Bradford FS - Bournemouth West services via the S&D after 1962.

1964 was the last year for the remaining holiday trains using the Great Central and in 1965 this pair of trains was re-routed south of Penistone via Barnsley, Sheffield Mid, Mkt Harborough, Northampton, Bletchley to Oxford. Although PSUL does not show the pair going this way in 1966, I have seen a photo of one on this line in July of that year. Instead PSUL shows the 1966 pair going via the MML then Hendon Goods Flyover, Acton Wells, Addlestone Jn and this is clearly the way they went from 1967 for a few years.

For the 1970 season, the route between Barnsley & Huddersfield was changed to via Crigglestone. This meant reversal at Huddersfield.

In 1972, the southern terminus was extended to Weymouth and the northbound train was re-routed via Reading West, Birmingham and, presumably for pathing reasons, the Lifford curve / St Andrews Jn / Landor St Jn loop. The southbound train was still booked to go via Hendon.

In 1973, the southbound train was re-routed to go the same way as the 1972 northbound, inc the Lifford curve. However the northbound was not booked via Lifford so presumably reversed in New St.

There were several more route variations up to the end of the 1982 season, which can be found on the PSUL website, when the northbound train ceased to run via Huddersfield & Halifax (there was a 1983 train but it ran via Leeds). 1986 was the last year that the south bound train ran.

 

[30907]

Fascinating history, especially the 1964 routing - never realised this combination of routes had been used for long distance timetabled services. Was it booked over the flyover?

Interesting for the roster clerks as well, I would think, bearing in mind Taunton's earlier remark about route knowledge.

 

[SouthDevonian]

I think you mean 1965 (1964 was the last year that this pair used the Great Central line). PSUL shows the Market Harborough No. 1 – Northampton Castle No. 5 line was used during the 1965 summer season by 3 pairs of trains between Yorkshire & the Dorset/Hants Coast and states that the last scheduled passenger train ran on 4 Sept 1965. However there is a photo on cover of ‘Dawn of Diesels’ book by J S Gilkes dated Saturday 23/7/66 which was taken at Launton showing a Class 31 on the Bradford train at Launton (between Bletchley & Oxford) so they may have used this route for some or all of the 1966 season. There is another picture of the same train in 1965 at Oxford station where a Hymek is taking over from a 31.

For 1967, and the later years, PSUL shows all these trains as booked to travel via the Hendon goods line flyover.

Incidentally, a check on my 1984 timetable showed the route of the southbound train between Chesterfield & Birmingham was via Nottingham & Leicester rather than Derby. This route may have also been used in 1983/5/6.

After the previous mention of a possible route between Northampton & Clapham Jn, I looked up PSUL to see if there had been any use by passenger trains of the mainly freight lines between the WCML and the SWML. This revealed a pair of summer Saturday trains between Manchester and Weymouth, for the years 1970/1/2/3, using 'unusual lines' Willesden Jn No.1 – Clapham Jn ‘A’ and Addlestone Jn – Byfleet Jn. These two were remnants of the old Pines Express - another train which had endured many changes of route.

 

[Taunton]

Interesting for the roster clerks as well, I would think, bearing in mind Taunton's earlier remark about route knowledge.

One of the many surprising things about these summer Saturday trains over the S&D was where the locomotives used might come from. It would be by no means unknown for one of these trains, on reversing at Bath, to have a Yorkshire Black 5 on the front down to Bournemouth. Bath Green park shed used to start salting away any handy-looking loco from about Thursday evening, aided by their mates at Bristol Barrow Road, and a Black 5 that arrived on a freight on Thursday evening might disappoint the crew by being given a 4F for their return working; meanwhile Green Park was accumulating several good locos from far and wide to help out with the Saturday rush. Green Park's own regular fleet would be fully employed as pilots, for just about all these services needed double heading between Bath and Evercreech.

If the harassed Green Park foreman was really down to the dregs I heard that a Jinty 3F tank was the ultimate pilot that might be turned out.

Blasting up the 1 in 50 out of Bath, a 4F pilot in front of a Black 5, Combe Down Tunnel the tightest single-bore you can imagine, completely unventilated and constant trains up and down through midday, and summer temperatures with the carriage ventilators open, conditions inside were bad enough for the passengers before they slammed the ventilators closed. What it was like for the crew on the second loco don't really bear thinking about, especially if it was a West Country 4-6-2 working back to Bournemouth, that got a slip inside the tunnel!