Line Speeds Between Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh

[herschell]

I was wondering what are the line speeds between Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh as have searched the net but not been able to find the information.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Altnabreac]

Page 11 of the Scotland network specification:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_specification_Scotland.aspx
has a linespeed map that will show you that the majority of the route is between 80- and 100mph with the section between the Forth Bridge and Kirkcaldy at 60-70mph.

For more detailed breakdowns you need to look at the Sectional Appendix here:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...appendix/scotland sectional appendix.pdf?cd=7

 

[herschell]

Thanks, that's exactly what I was needing

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Page 11 of the Scotland network specification:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_specification_Scotland.aspx
has a linespeed map that will show you that the majority of the route is between 80- and 100mph with the section between the Forth Bridge and Kirkcaldy at 60-70mph.

For more detailed breakdowns you need to look at the Sectional Appendix here:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...appendix/scotland sectional appendix.pdf?cd=7

Bookmarked - thanks - great resource.

 

[herschell]

hopefully the line will get some sort of upgrade during the new franchise so as to have quicker times between those to stations

 

[edwin_m]

hopefully the line will get some sort of upgrade during the new franchise so as to have quicker times between those to stations

Probably not. Most of the sections where HSTs could run faster without huge expenditure were upgraded in the 80s and the differential speeds for HSTs remain in force (170s can use them too). If by two stations you're referring to Forth Bridge and Kirkcaldy there are some quite bad curves here and the straighter bits in between are too short to get up much speed.

 

[Northern_Light]

Probably not. Most of the sections where HSTs could run faster without huge expenditure were upgraded in the 80s and the differential speeds for HSTs remain in force (170s can use them too). If by two stations you're referring to Forth Bridge and Kirkcaldy there are some quite bad curves here and the straighter bits in between are too short to get up much speed.

Agree with you entirely. Unless we reach the point that running express services from Aberdeen to the Central Belt becomes viable, then I think that this would be a rather pointless exercise. As it has been said that not even 1,000 passengers a day cross the single track section to the south of Montrose, I doubt very much that this is very likely to happen - now and even beyond the foreseeable future.

Once the HSTs are up and running, then they should make a small difference to journey times. Looking into the franchise beyond the next one, then the planned electrification of the lines should also make a further, if slight improvement to running time.

 

[clc]

Transport Scotland's 'Aberdeen to Central Belt' project will be taken forward in CP6. From STPR:

"Phase 1 would include line speed improvements, additional loops to allow passing of freight trains, and upgraded signalling along the entire length of the line to reduce headway times. The intervention would also require more powerful rolling stock. Phase 2 would involve the removal of the single track at Usan, including a new bridge over Montrose Basin."

The Scottish Government's draft budget for 2015/16 confirms it is allowing for longer term RAB borrowing for projects beyond those included in the 2012 HLOS, and specifically mentions Aberdeen to Central Belt.

 

[Northern_Light]

Transport Scotland's 'Aberdeen to Central Belt' project will be taken forward in CP6. From STPR:

"Phase 1 would include line speed improvements, additional loops to allow passing of freight trains, and upgraded signalling along the entire length of the line to reduce headway times. The intervention would also require more powerful rolling stock. Phase 2 would involve the removal of the single track at Usan, including a new bridge over Montrose Basin."

The Scottish Government's draft budget for 2015/16 confirms it is allowing for longer term RAB borrowing for projects beyond those included in the 2012 HLOS, and specifically mentions Aberdeen to Central Belt.

More powerful rolling stock? Additional freight passing loops? Does this imply that they plan to upgrade the line to full on 125mph standard?

If this is indeed the plan, then of course it does make sense to have the improvements in place prior to electrification. But at what cost? I can't find the relevant document at the moment, but I have read that the proposed doubling of Montrose-Usan produced a BCR of 0.1. And with the vast majority of services south of Aberdeen stopping at most of the stations en route to Dundee, the point of an upgrade of this level is lost on me.

My long term goal would be quite simply this - for the train to handily beat the dear old car from Aberdeen to Glasgow/Edinburgh. Of course, there would need to be some upgrades along the way. But this would surely be much more cost effective than butchering a good proportion of the track. If the new bridge over the Montrose Basin is indeed built it would be IMO a case of fantasy brought to life.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a pessimist here. And I honestly hope that I'm proved wrong! But if it means that finite resources are saved to be put to better use on more deserving causes then so be it.

 

[clc]

More powerful rolling stock? Additional freight passing loops? Does this imply that they plan to upgrade the line to full on 125mph standard?

If this is indeed the plan, then of course it does make sense to have the improvements in place prior to electrification. But at what cost? I can't find the relevant document at the moment, but I have read that the proposed doubling of Montrose-Usan produced a BCR of 0.1. And with the vast majority of services south of Aberdeen stopping at most of the stations en route to Dundee, the point of an upgrade of this level is lost on me.

My long term goal would be quite simply this - for the train to handily beat the dear old car from Aberdeen to Glasgow/Edinburgh. Of course, there would need to be some upgrades along the way. But this would surely be much more cost effective than butchering a good proportion of the track. If the new bridge over the Montrose Basin is indeed built it would be IMO a case of fantasy brought to life.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a pessimist here. And I honestly hope that I'm proved wrong! But if it means that finite resources are saved to be put to better use on more deserving causes then so be it.

The upgrades would allow (in addition to local services) 1 express train per hour to both cities: Aberdeen-Glasgow in 2h15m, Aberdeen-Edinburgh in 2h. So the rail journey would be faster than driving.

Capacity would be significantly increased for passenger and freight services.

BCR for phase 1 = 1.75-2.25.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ts/uploaded_reports/j10194a/j10194a-a2D18.pdf

 

[herschell]

One problem I see with doubling the line at Usan is the houses just after the viaduct, any ideas as to how this would be solved?

 

[Altnabreac]

The other relevant scheme that potentially reduces journey times here is the Inverkeithing to Halbeath rail line which was identified in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR).
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j10194c-33.htm

It isn't currently funded as a CP5 investment but in theory because it was included in the STPR the intention is to deliver it before 2030.

There is also a proposal to extend that line further north to serve Perth directly. This does not have any official status with Transport Scotland or Scottish Government but I understand it is being taken seriously by ministers as a future proposal.
http://transformscotland.org.uk/intercityexpress/?page_id=103

 

[najaB]

One problem I see with doubling the line at Usan is the houses just after the viaduct, any ideas as to how this would be solved?

It might require compulsory purchase and demolition.

A question about potential solutions for difficult areas like this, with advances in materials science (for example carbon composites) does anyone know of any research into the practicalities of building double track decks on top of existing single track structures?

 

[herschell]

It might require compulsory purchase and demolition.

True and we know what kind of a fuss that can kick up when it's suggested.

 

[clc]

The other relevant scheme that potentially reduces journey times here is the Inverkeithing to Halbeath rail line which was identified in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR).
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j10194c-33.htm

It isn't currently funded as a CP5 investment but in theory because it was included in the STPR the intention is to deliver it before 2030.

There is also a proposal to extend that line further north to serve Perth directly. This does not have any official status with Transport Scotland or Scottish Government but I understand it is being taken seriously by ministers as a future proposal.
http://transformscotland.org.uk/intercityexpress/?page_id=103

If all the proposed improvements went ahead along with electrification and perhaps a short spur bypassing Perth to the south east, and Aberdeen-Central Belt services were re-routed via the new Perth line what do you think would be the hourly journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh assuming one stop only (say Dundee)? Could Aberdeen-Edinburgh be brought down to 1h30m and Aberdeen-Glasgow to 1h45m?

 

[najaB]

If all the proposed improvements went ahead along with electrification and perhaps a short spur bypassing Perth to the south east, and Aberdeen-Central Belt services were re-routed via the new Perth line what do you think would be the hourly journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh assuming one stop only (say Dundee)? Could Aberdeen-Edinburgh be brought down to 1h30m and Aberdeen-Glasgow to 1h45m?

Where would this line cross the Tay?

 

[Altnabreac]

If all the proposed improvements went ahead along with electrification and perhaps a short spur bypassing Perth to the south east, and Aberdeen-Central Belt services were re-routed via the new Perth line what do you think would be the hourly journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh assuming one stop only (say Dundee)? Could Aberdeen-Edinburgh be brought down to 1h30m and Aberdeen-Glasgow to 1h45m?

Those sort of times sound plausible. That's assuming of course that 7 different schemes go ahead, only 4 of which are actually current government policy:
Edinburgh - Glasgow high speed rail
Dunblane - Aberdeen electrification
Aberdeen - Central belt speed enhancements
Inverkeithing - Halbeath new line
Halbeath - Perth new line (proposed by Transform Scotland)
EGHSR - Dalmeny link line
Bridge of Earn - St Madoes - (Dundee West?) link line

Suspect politically you'd actually stop each service at least once north of Dundee alternating between Arbroath, Montrose and Stonehaven. Probably also some intermediate stations as well although stops there could be picked up by Perth/Inverness trains.

Could see a service pattern of something like.
1tph Edinburgh - Haymarket - Kinross - Dundee - Montrose - Aberdeen.
1tph Glasgow Central - Dunfermline - Dundee - Arbroath - Stonehaven - Aberdeen.
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Stirling - Dunblane - Gleneagles - Perth - Dundee West - Dundee - Broughty Ferry - Monifieth - Carnoustie - Arbroath - Montrose - Laurencekirk - Stonehaven - Portlethen - Aberdeen - Dyce - Kintore - Inverurie.
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Where would this line cross the Tay?

Logically it would be somewhere south west of St Madoes. Wouldn't be cheap though as technically the Tay is navigable at that point and a new line would also have to cross the Earn in quick succession.

Once you'd crossed the Tay it might make sense to build a new line from St Madoes to the western outskirts of Dundee. The existing line has loads of Level Crossings and may just be easier to build offline and then abandon the old route.

As far as I'm aware nothing crossing the Tay has been proposed even by pressure groups but it is a logical next step of the Intercity Express concept advocated by Transform Scotland.