• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Little Gem buses has ceased operating

Status
Not open for further replies.

bussnapperwm

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2014
Messages
1,528
Little Gem have ceased operations


TfGM was today, Friday 21 April, informed by the owner of Little Gem that they plan to stop running contracted bus services, with the last day of operation being Saturday 22 April.

The operator currently runs several school and local bus services.

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has arranged emergency cover for several bus routes set to be withdrawn in Manchester, Trafford, Tameside and Stockport.

However, currently, no emergency cover has been found for general bus services 44, 84, 217, 260, 261, 262, 280, 288 and 375. TfGM is tendering all Little Gem services, with a view to new contracts starting on Tuesday 2 May.

In arranging emergency cover, priority was given to school services and those routes where passengers have fewer travel options.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

markymark2000

Established Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
4,092
Location
Western Part of the UK
What will happen to the 391/392 to Macclesfield?
Very conveniently, that got moved over to the Go Goodwins (coaching) licence as of Monday just gone (18th April) and everyone was confused as to why they would do this. I therefore think what is going on is that they are going to keep running the 391/392 and this is a winding up of the Little Gem business and operation. As the 391/392 has moved to Go Goodwins, not Little Gem, this wouldn't be included.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
I wonder what keeps driving Goodwins's on/off relationship with service work? This is the second time in 10 years they've withdrawn back to their coach service roots.
 

M803UYA

Member
Joined
24 May 2020
Messages
699
Location
Under my stone....
Little Gem have ceased operations

When I click on the press release I'm taken to their website, and beside the press release is an announcement called 'Say yellow to your buses'.....

Possible connection?

Say yellow to your buses​

Your Bee Network is arriving from September. But you'll see yellow buses from April.
Find out more about your yellow buses
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2023-04-21 19.49.11.png
    Screenshot 2023-04-21 19.49.11.png
    972 KB · Views: 65

markymark2000

Established Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
4,092
Location
Western Part of the UK
Possible connection?
Not exactly. The franchised area will be Wigan and Bolton and the 'yellow buses from April' is Diamond and GoNorthWest repainting some of their buses into the franchising Yellow in preparation for the franchising.

In some ways I would say yes though it is connected to franchising as Little Gem don't want to be part of it. I think there are better ways to go about things though than shut up shop one random day.
 

O539

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2023
Messages
16
Location
Leeds
This will certainly create a big problem in regards to TfGM trying to find operators for the sheer volume of public routes that Little Gem now will have formerly operated. It was bad enough when CTPlus went under as some of those services took 6 months to find new operators, although to be fair that was for a few little local non-profitable and subsidized routes rather than the larger routes they used to operate.

Hopefully a new operator is found for the services relatively soon
 

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,519
I have a few questions to those with local knowledge…

Does anyone know roughly what the PVR (peak vehicle requirement) of the Little Gem operation is? Looks like quite a few routes with a level of interworking on some, although not sure how the schools fit around some of the daytime only routes. Somewhere in the region of 20 vehicles?

I’d read somewhere that Go Goodwins had been planning to use the Maynes name they acquired on their local bus services - I guess this rumour was either unfounded or idea just done away with since assessing and deciding to ditch buses instead? I’m unsure if there was ever any official announcement/source, or even where I read this.

Finally, it was mentioned above that the 391/392 had recently been moved from the Little Gem to the Go Goodwins licence. I realise we can probably only speculate, but what is it about this tendered operation that could’ve made that attractive to keep when giving up all the other stage carriage stuff?
 

markymark2000

Established Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
4,092
Location
Western Part of the UK
I have a few questions to those with local knowledge…

Does anyone know roughly what the PVR (peak vehicle requirement) of the Little Gem operation is? Looks like quite a few routes with a level of interworking on some, although not sure how the schools fit around some of the daytime only routes. Somewhere in the region of 20 vehicles?
In terms of 'normal service', you are looking at the following:
44 - 3 buses
84 - 1 bus (between schools)
217 - 2 buses
260/261/262 - 1 bus
280 - 2 buses
288 - 1 bus
336/337/389 - 3 buses.
375 - 3 buses

The larger interworking is just Little Gem doing it themselves as then they can save on shunt cars. It doesn't have to be mass interworked and it isn't tendered out in that way.

Schools, as far as PVR is concerned, is mostly in addition to the local service. There is only 1 route which runs between school times, that being the 84. the 260/261/262 does start late so could have a school run prior. All other routes run all day and have no gaps where schools can operate.
 

Djb1

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2021
Messages
76
Location
Manchester
I have a few questions to those with local knowledge…

Does anyone know roughly what the PVR (peak vehicle requirement) of the Little Gem operation is? Looks like quite a few routes with a level of interworking on some, although not sure how the schools fit around some of the daytime only routes. Somewhere in the region of 20 vehicles?

I’d read somewhere that Go Goodwins had been planning to use the Maynes name they acquired on their local bus services - I guess this rumour was either unfounded or idea just done away with since assessing and deciding to ditch buses instead? I’m unsure if there was ever any official announcement/source, or even where I read this.

Finally, it was mentioned above that the 391/392 had recently been moved from the Little Gem to the Go Goodwins licence. I realise we can probably only speculate, but what is it about this tendered operation that could’ve made that attractive to keep when giving up all the other stage carriage stuff?
In respect of your final paragraph, perhaps they didn’t want to burn that bridge in case they want to pursue opportunities in Cheshire east from Warrington at some point?
 

M803UYA

Member
Joined
24 May 2020
Messages
699
Location
Under my stone....
In some ways I would say yes though it is connected to franchising as Little Gem don't want to be part of it. I think there are better ways to go about things though than shut up shop one random day.
It depends on the leanings of the owner, I guess. There is some historic evidence that the owners of Go Goodwins may possibly have right of centre learnings rather than the left leanings of the current Mayor of Greater Manchester.

The link won't let me download the image so I can't attach it here. :(
 

Mwanesh

Member
Joined
14 May 2016
Messages
884
Not exactly. The franchised area will be Wigan and Bolton and the 'yellow buses from April' is Diamond and GoNorthWest repainting some of their buses into the franchising Yellow in preparation for the franchising.

In some ways I would say yes though it is connected to franchising as Little Gem don't want to be part of it. I think there are better ways to go about things though than shut up shop one random day.
As soon as franchising started this was bound to happen. Speaking to a few operators some have said there is no more room to start a bus company.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,809
Location
Isle of Man
As soon as franchising started this was bound to happen. Speaking to a few operators some have said there is no more room to start a bus company.
I’d also say good riddance to operators who behave like this.

I’ve been in Manchester this week, the Little Gem stuff looked as badly turned-out as the UK North stuff was back in the day. Whether they’d already given up I don’t know, but it didn’t scream professional operator.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
As soon as franchising started this was bound to happen. Speaking to a few operators some have said there is no more room to start a bus company.

Though the Little Gem services are in Altrincham/Sale and Central Manchester, which is the last rollout zone that won't transition for another two years (one in Stockport 2nd phase zone). It's more likely related to the new owner trimming back bus services to focus on their coach operations.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,317
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
In terms of 'normal service', you are looking at the following:
44 - 3 buses
84 - 1 bus (between schools)
217 - 2 buses
260/261/262 - 1 bus
280 - 2 buses
288 - 1 bus
336/337/389 - 3 buses.
375 - 3 buses
A couple of the services are operated at certain times (280 Sundays, 288 evenings/Sundays) by Arriva, who also operate many of the other bus services in the Altrincham area (both commercial and tendered). Arriva will also have a number of surplus buses after today following the closure of their nearby Winsford and Macclesfield depots - could these be re-allocated to their Wythenshawe depot to run some of these services, at least for the short-term?
 

Soundwave

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2022
Messages
71
Location
UK
Interesting that First Transport Solutions have for a finger in this pie. Do TfGM not have the resources to sort the schools out themselves?
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
This will certainly create a big problem in regards to TfGM trying to find operators for the sheer volume of public routes that Little Gem now will have formerly operated. It was bad enough when CTPlus went under as some of those services took 6 months to find new operators, although to be fair that was for a few little local non-profitable and subsidized routes rather than the larger routes they used to operate.

Let's remember Manchester Community Transport stopped trading at the start of the COVID pandemic. At that time it was illegal to go on a bus unless it was for an essential reason like work, shopping or healthcare and even then you were supposed to work from home if possible and use local shops, not go on shopping trips.

Manchester Community Transport had the 391/392 contract and it took a few months before Go Goodwins took on the replacement. During the gap Cheshire East made an arrangement for a temporary flexible service using their own minibuses.

I do question how Little Gem can just stop operating at the end of Saturday, if they have contracts which are still valid.

I wonder what keeps driving Goodwins's on/off relationship with service work? This is the second time in 10 years they've withdrawn back to their coach service roots.

Finally, it was mentioned above that the 391/392 had recently been moved from the Little Gem to the Go Goodwins licence. I realise we can probably only speculate, but what is it about this tendered operation that could’ve made that attractive to keep when giving up all the other stage carriage stuff?

I don't have the answer but it's worth remembering a few points in relation to this.

Firstly, the original Little Gem operation was sold to Diamond Bus North West. There were no Little Gem buses running about when they started running the 391 and 392. In the early days of the 391 and 392 they were only using vehicles in the blue Go Goodwins livery as demonstrated here:
It was claimed Go Goodwins decided to set up the Little Gem name again because the COVID pandemic had resulted in no coach hire work and TfGM were awarding short term contracts. Saying that it's unclear why they decided to bid for the new contracts that started last April, especially considering at the time they were saying they didn't have enough drivers for the 391/392 to return to its original frequency.

Secondly, I think the 391/392 contract is between Cheshire East and Go Goodwins, not with Little Gem. I heard a rumour that Go Goodwins were invited to bid by Cheshire East because they heard positive things about them from Knutsford Town Council. (Knutsford Town Council gave them a contract to provide a Park&Ride service for Christmas markets.) The 391 and 392 contract is longer than the TfGM ones. Cheshire East had enough issues with Selwyns using vehicles that were smaller and older than the contract specification on the 391/392 and then throwing in the towel, before having to replace the Manchester Community Transport contract.

A couple of the services are operated at certain times (280 Sundays, 288 evenings/Sundays) by Arriva, who also operate many of the other bus services in the Altrincham area (both commercial and tendered). Arriva will also have a number of surplus buses after today following the closure of their nearby Winsford and Macclesfield depots - could these be re-allocated to their Wythenshawe depot to run some of these services, at least for the short-term?

A Winsford driver probably isn't going to commute to Wythenshawe each day to drive the 288 or 280. So it might require Arriva to take on Little Gem drivers too. Do we know if Go Goodwins are making drivers redundant or just moving them to other work?
 

Djb1

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2021
Messages
76
Location
Manchester
I’d also say good riddance to operators who behave like this.

I’ve been in Manchester this week, the Little Gem stuff looked as badly turned-out as the UK North stuff was back in the day. Whether they’d already given up I don’t know, but it didn’t scream professional operator.
I’ll be honest as an occasional user of little gem buses I agree with some of this. I’m sure it’s mechanically sound but one of the solos looked utterly dreadful, especially from behind.

Frequent early termination of last buses - https://bustimes.org/services/44-al...nchester-piccadilly/vehicles?date=2023-04-18#

They were also the operator of my local service when it got discontinued due to low patronage. Except it appeared to me that many fares didn’t reach the farebox….
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Except it appeared to me that many fares didn’t reach the farebox….

I've been on their buses a few times and I've not experienced any drivers not issuing tickets. One even told a passenger it was cheaper on the app and allowed the passenger to buy it on the app during the journey and to show it as he alighted.

One thing I have noticed on the minibuses is they have a radio system fitted and the drivers use it. On one occasion it was playing Smooth Radio, so probably won't get any objections. On another the driver had 1Xtra playing. Perhaps not a favourite of pensioners returning from their shopping trip?
 

M803UYA

Member
Joined
24 May 2020
Messages
699
Location
Under my stone....
I do question how Little Gem can just stop operating at the end of Saturday, if they have contracts which are still valid.
I can surmise that the owners aren't too concerned about the response from the traffic commissioner - which might be a ban on running local bus services. Clearly they see no future in local bus work and to them there is little point carrying on when the medium term future is one where everything is yellow?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,941
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I can surmise that the owners aren't too concerned about the response from the traffic commissioner - which might be a ban on running local bus services. Clearly they see no future in local bus work and to them there is little point carrying on when the medium term future is one where everything is yellow?

Given that a lot of their business was tenders, I don't see how the yellow future is much different, it just means everything is tendered. They could well go for some small contracts if they wanted.
 

pjnathanail

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2012
Messages
374
Location
Nottingham
Given that a lot of their business was tenders, I don't see how the yellow future is much different, it just means everything is tendered. They could well go for some small contracts if they wanted.
On paper a small bus franchise is no different to a collection of gross cost tenders, you’re right. However, the hoops one has to jump through to win - and retain - the franchise package, and the service standards one will be held to, are much much higher, with proportionately higher financial penalties for failures. I’m speaking in general terms, not specific to Manchester, but this could be why they’ve decided to move away from local bus.
 

H14LSB

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2023
Messages
7
Location
South Manchester
Given that in order to bid for a franchise, TfGM are reportedly looking for a "deposit" of £20M from EACH operator in advance, it's no wonder Little Gem see no future in the local bus services.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,941
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
On paper a small bus franchise is no different to a collection of gross cost tenders, you’re right. However, the hoops one has to jump through to win - and retain - the franchise package, and the service standards one will be held to, are much much higher, with proportionately higher financial penalties for failures. I’m speaking in general terms, not specific to Manchester, but this could be why they’ve decided to move away from local bus.

Possibly so. As a passenger, I'm more than happy operators that aren't willing to be held to high standards leave the industry, as there is really no room for poor quality if we want to see increased usage.
 

M803UYA

Member
Joined
24 May 2020
Messages
699
Location
Under my stone....
On paper a small bus franchise is no different to a collection of gross cost tenders, you’re right. However, the hoops one has to jump through to win - and retain - the franchise package, and the service standards one will be held to, are much much higher, with proportionately higher financial penalties for failures. I’m speaking in general terms, not specific to Manchester, but this could be why they’ve decided to move away from local bus.
From my limited understanding of Greater Manchester, their tender conditions are fairly stringent compared to those of local authorities. Evidently the conditions required to run under a franchise regime would be even more stringent. I can see why the owners of Go Goodwins may have little to no interest in that side of the business.

Historically, Goodwins have run a number of schools services which they're also ending.
Possibly so. As a passenger, I'm more than happy operators that aren't willing to be held to high standards leave the industry, as there is really no room for poor quality if we want to see increased usage.
I think under your requirements for improved standards you might see an absence of operators willing to operate services - so overall fewer services and fewer buses at a higher cost to the taxpayer. I don't see many new entrants to the industry at the present time. You have the likes of Jim Stones, so much complimented by the mayor of Greater Manchester exiting the industry thanks to the acid yellow vision on offer. I wouldn't have classed them as a poor quality operation, neither would their customers.
 

cnjb8

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
2,251
Location
Nottingham
Interestingly, LJ09KPF has seemingly been repainted in Diamond livery
 

Contains Nuts

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2019
Messages
113
Given that in order to bid for a franchise, TfGM are reportedly looking for a "deposit" of £20M from EACH operator in advance, it's no wonder Little Gem see no future in the local bus services.
Source for this please?
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
From my limited understanding of Greater Manchester, their tender conditions are fairly stringent compared to those of local authorities. Evidently the conditions required to run under a franchise regime would be even more stringent. I can see why the owners of Go Goodwins may have little to no interest in that side of the business.

When there were Cheshire contracts for a 289 Altrincham to Northwich and a 200 Manchester Airport to Wilmslow, it was commonplace to see Greater Manchester coach hire operators bidding for them, even when they had no or limited experience of running ordinary bus services. At one stage Swans Travel had both routes, despite being based on the other side of Greater Manchester. I suspect this was down to them wanting to prove themselves to TfGM, rather than them really wanting a Cheshire contracted service.

I can surmise that the owners aren't too concerned about the response from the traffic commissioner - which might be a ban on running local bus services. Clearly they see no future in local bus work and to them there is little point carrying on when the medium term future is one where everything is yellow?

They might not care that much about being banned from operating public bus services but the action a traffic commissioner could take may affect their ability to provide coach hire services for the England Cricket Board, for instance.
 

Leedsbusman

Member
Joined
9 May 2021
Messages
449
Location
Layton
Given that in order to bid for a franchise, TfGM are reportedly looking for a "deposit" of £20M from EACH operator in advance, it's no wonder Little Gem see no future in the local bus services.
Not quite. To bid for a large franchise a performance bond is required to be lodged and a parent company guarantee required. Small and school franchises are not required to provide either.
 

H14LSB

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2023
Messages
7
Location
South Manchester
Source for this please?
Personal experience. The reason that Arriva have turned Bolton depot loose, and are not bidding for the area.


Not quite. To bid for a large franchise a performance bond is required to be lodged and a parent company guarantee required. Small and school franchises are not required to provide either.
The problem is the way the Mayor is trying to arrange things. A system like London where operators bid on a package of routes, would have been a perfectly simple and well worked way forward. To have a "winner takes all" system, is ridiculous.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top