Liverpool Lime Street to Newport South Wales: permitted routes?

[Fawkes Cat]

As in the title, please could anyone advise on the above? The context is that I am thinking about a circular trip Liverpool - Slough (overnight) - Newport (overnight) - Liverpool and I am wondering if it would make sense to get a Liverpool - Newport ticket plus something for when I go off a permitted route.

It would be nice if Liverpool to Newport was permitted via London, but gut instinct suggests that it won't be.

 

[jfollows]

Lots of valid map routes, so go to https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps and look them up:

But London won't be one of them!
Bristol appears to be the furthest point east, but I may not have checked them all.
BV+CB BV+WB CH+AW CV+AW ME+CB ME+WB NO+BM+CB NO+BM+WB NR+BM+CB NR+BM+WB

EDIT Liverpool-Swindon has a vast number of routes and maybe more suitable for your trip but that's only a guess at the moment:

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That's helpful - thanks.

 

[kieron]

As in the title, please could anyone advise on the above? The context is that I am thinking about a circular trip Liverpool - Slough (overnight) - Newport (overnight) - Liverpool and I am wondering if it would make sense to get a Liverpool - Newport ticket plus something for when I go off a permitted route.

Not with a Liverpool-Newport ticket; you'd go off-route near Birmingham, and buying an extra Birmingham-London ticket would make your Slough-Newport journey really slow.

If you're happy to continue your outward journey on the second day using an off peak return, a Liverpool-Swindon ticket may be worth considering. If you buy a "not via London" ticket and excess the outbound leg to "via London", you could travel via London and Slough on the way in, and via Newport, Shrewsbury and Birkenhead on the way back (the latter using maps SB+PJ+CH).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Many thanks for all the help si far. Can I now come back for detailed advice on restriction 2V?

As the journey gets closer, things have changed a little.

It turns out I'm going to Bristol rather than Newport - but still with Slough on the way down. And my wife's coming too, so an easy journey has some importance as well as getting a good fare - which means that I don't really want anything which involves arguing the letter of 'the rules' against interpretations that railway staff might have

On the basis of the excellent advice already given, it looks as if the ticket to go for may be a Liverpool - Swindon off-peak return, not via London (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LIV&dest=SWI&grpo=0435&rte=700&tkt=SVR) for £99.50 each (n.b. we will be using a Two Together Railcard, so in practice a fare of £65.65 each). So I expect our itinerary to go something like the following:

Thursday: Liverpool - Reading via Birmingham, using outward leg of the LIV - SWI off-peak return. Separate ticket to Slough. Overnight in Slough
Friday: Slough to Bristol.

This is where I start asking questions. BRFares says that the LIV-SWI off-peak return has outward validity:

One journey in each direction to be made within:​
Outward Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 day)​

but in the notes we are told

Notes​
Overnight Break of Journey is permitted under this restriction code, but the restriction applies for all individual legs of the journey at each intermediate station: Outward (on day 2): Outward restrictions as above apply from the intermediate station, Monday-Friday.

So does this mean that 'by the rules' I can break my outward journey at Reading on Thursday/day 1 and resume it there on Friday/day 2? And if it does mean that, am I likely to be able to do this without challenge from rail staff?

If I am practically allowed to resume at Reading on Friday, then we will need separate tickets from Slough back to Reading. Otherwise we will need tickets from Slough to Swindon.

Having got to Swindon, I assume that I can start my return journey to Liverpool, breaking my journey at Bristol Temple Meads.

We'll be in Bristol until Sunday, and then travel back to Liverpool, via Cheltenham and Birmingham. I'm pretty certain by 'the rules' that we're entitled to break our journey at Bristol and resume a couple of days later as the return validity of a 2V ticket is

VALIDITY
One journey in each direction to be made within:​
Outward Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 day)​
Return Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 month)​

But again, are we likely to be able to do this without challenge from railway staff?

All advice welcome!

(and apologies if I've gone into excessive details about the stations involved: I don't think that this is a 'loophole' but I'm happy to be advised otherwise)

​

​

 

[Watershed]

On the basis of the excellent advice already given, it looks as if the ticket to go for may be a Liverpool - Swindon off-peak return, not via London (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LIV&dest=SWI&grpo=0435&rte=700&tkt=SVR) for £99.50 each (n.b. we will be using a Two Together Railcard, so in practice a fare of £65.65 each).

To clarify, the suggestion was to buy the 'not via London' ticket and then obtain a change of route excess to 'via London' for the outward portion - which should cost half the difference between the two fares. Whilst there is no requirement to obtain this excess before boarding, many onboard staff, including Avanti Train Managers, no longer have the ticket issuing equipment to sell tickets with a Maltese Cross (as these must be issued as Credit Card Sized Tickets to work the Underground barriers). Thus from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, it's advisable to obtain the excess at a ticket office before boarding in order to avoid potential hassle once you get to London.

Thursday: Liverpool - Reading via Birmingham, using outward leg of the LIV - SWI off-peak return. Separate ticket to Slough. Overnight in Slough
Friday: Slough to Bristol.

Unfortunately this would involve a double-back between Didcot and Reading; this double-back is permitted for some tickets, but not with this one. Is there a particular reason you'd rather travel via Birmingham down to Reading, rather than via London? If so, it's likely that a different combination of tickets would be optimal.

but in the notes we are told

So does this mean that 'by the rules' I can break my outward journey at Reading on Thursday/day 1 and resume it there on Friday/day 2? And if it does mean that, am I likely to be able to do this without challenge from rail staff?

If I am practically allowed to resume at Reading on Friday, then we will need separate tickets from Slough back to Reading. Otherwise we will need tickets from Slough to Swindon.

It's not really so much down to the notes as the essential terms of validity for an Off-Peak Return. NRE refers:

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriate restrictions for the actual day on which travel is being undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Friday restrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

The phrase "journey cannot be completed in this time" has long been open to interpretation, but I think that the notes in LNER's restriction code 1K describe the (seemingly intended) meaning more clearly:

Break of journey is permitted. For long-haul train journeys, if a customer begins their journey at such a time that the timetable does not facilitate completion of the journey into their destination, customers may break their journey overnight. The same time restrictions apply for any continuation of travel on day 2 in this scenario.

So overnight break of journey on the outward portion is permitted, but only if there are no more trains to Swindon at the time you reach e.g. Slough. Given that the last train to Swindon leaves Paddington at 23:32 (there are effectively trains through the night to Slough, with a 2 hour gap between the 01:42 and 03:34), I think that might make a break of journey at Slough rather unappealling - it would only be permissible if arriving at Paddington later than 23:32!

This is aside from the fact that as you allude to, the overnight break of journey on the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is not very well-known by gateline staff and so you might expect some hassle if trying to do so.

Having got to Swindon, I assume that I can start my return journey to Liverpool, breaking my journey at Bristol Temple Meads.

We'll be in Bristol until Sunday, and then travel back to Liverpool, via Cheltenham and Birmingham. I'm pretty certain by 'the rules' that we're entitled to break our journey at Bristol and resume a couple of days later as the return validity of a 2V ticket is


But again, are we likely to be able to do this without challenge from railway staff?

Overnight break of journey on the return portion is much less likely to be problematic, as it's better known about. I wouldn't expect any issues on this front.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Unfortunately this would involve a double-back between Didcot and Reading;

I've obviously been in the north west for too long: I'd forgotten about the existence of Didcot, and hence the doubling-back from there to Reading. Thanks for the reminder of how geography works!

This makes via London (with, as people have pointed out, getting a change of route excess for the outward portion) look rather more appealing.

Otherwise, thanks for confirming what I thought was the case (but rather hoped wasn't) about outward validity.

 

[kieron]

It turns out I'm going to Bristol rather than Newport - but still with Slough on the way down.

Only going as far as Bristol makes things easier, as a Swindon-Liverpool journey is valid (on maps BW+BV) with one change in Birmingham.

I've obviously been in the north west for too long: I'd forgotten about the existence of Didcot, and hence the doubling-back from there to Reading. Thanks for the reminder of how geography works!

The double back to Reading is absolutely fine with a "not via London" ticket. Easement 82 says as much, and the reason behind it (that Crosscountry doesn't stop between Oxford and Reading) is as sound as ever. For confirmation, nre.co.uk is happy to show that route as being valid (link*).

From what I can see, going down via London will be quicker, but going via Reading cheaper. The "via London" excess should cost £14.85 or £14.90 each with a railcard (I don't know how exactly the rounding works here). If you go via Reading, you can use contactless for £5.20 each off peak.

For the journey to Bristol, your return leg would cover you from Swindon (maps BW+BV via Bath, or SB+PM+NO via Bristol Parkway). Going to Swindon, a £14.30 (with railcard) super off peak single to Swindon (restriction YU) may be suitable.

Otherwise, thanks for confirming what I thought was the case (but rather hoped wasn't) about outward validity.

Sorry, I should have made the situation a bit clearer. The outward ticket will only have one day's validity printed on it, so you are likely to be asked questions if you use it after then. The return has a month's, so you aren't.

To minimise the risk of hassle, I'd take an itinerary with you (either printed or on a phone) in case someone asks. A Liverpool-Swindon ticket is valid via Bristol Temple Meads but a Birmingham-Swindon one isn't, so I wouldn't rely on the barrier staff knowing.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Only going as far as Bristol makes things easier, as a Swindon-Liverpool journey is valid (on maps BW+BV) with one change in Birmingham.

The double back to Reading is absolutely fine with a "not via London" ticket. Easement 82 says as much, and the reason behind it (that Crosscountry doesn't stop between Oxford and Reading) is as sound as ever. For confirmation, nre.co.uk is happy to show that route as being valid (link*).

From what I can see, going down via London will be quicker, but going via Reading cheaper. The "via London" excess should cost £14.85 or £14.90 each with a railcard (I don't know how exactly the rounding works here). If you go via Reading, you can use contactless for £5.20 each off peak.

For the journey to Bristol, your return leg would cover you from Swindon (maps BW+BV via Bath, or SB+PM+NO via Bristol Parkway). Going to Swindon, a £14.30 (with railcard) super off peak single to Swindon (restriction YU) may be suitable.

Sorry, I should have made the situation a bit clearer. The outward ticket will only have one day's validity printed on it, so you are likely to be asked questions if you use it after then. The return has a month's, so you aren't.

To minimise the risk of hassle, I'd take an itinerary with you (either printed or on a phone) in case someone asks. A Liverpool-Swindon ticket is valid via Bristol Temple Meads but a Birmingham-Swindon one isn't, so I wouldn't rely on the barrier staff knowing.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.

Many thanks for this!