Llangollen to Corwen complete - where next?

[deevalley]

After many years of effort, the fantastic volunteers at Llangollen Railway have completed the dream of a line to a new permanent station at Corwen.
The station has been wonderfully designed and built. Customers, volunteers and staff can now enjoy this wonderful route.

For a good while I expect this will be it. Celebrate and allow the new route to bed in.

But where to go next? Extend from Llangollen East towards Ruabon? Maybe just as far as the New Wernffrwd nature reserve, or Trevor for the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct?

Or Westwards towards Bala?

Or neither!? Llangollen to Corwen is a lovely route. Stop now and focus on other aspects?

Any thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may well have reached the optimal length for a preserved railway experience? The Ffestiniog seem to be finding that the full length of the Welsh Highland is a bit too long and costly for a family day out which provides much of the business, so they seem to be mostly operating that as halfway trips from each end with very few full length through trains (only something like two a week in each direction if I recall).

 

[30907]

East from Llangollen is out of the question, just by looking at satellite imagery.
West from Corwen the station sites have been repurposed, and the scenery isn't comparable with eg Berwyn.

Keeping the line going will be enough of a challenge, I imagine, as it is everywhere.

PS welcome to the forum!

 

[satisnek]

That's great news! I really must pay another visit, it's a beautiful little (or not so little) line. From my observations when I went there via the temporary station when that stretch of line first opened, Corwen really needs to up its game as a tourist destination, which it will surely become.

But yes, the Llangollen Railway is Llangollen-Corwen, the same as the SVR is Kidderminster-Bridgnorth, despite what the pipe-dreamers (or is it 'crayonistas' in this century?) keep on saying.

 

[bramling]

After many years of effort, the fantastic volunteers at Llangollen Railway have completed the dream of a line to a new permanent station at Corwen.
The station has been wonderfully designed and built. Customers, volunteers and staff can now enjoy this wonderful route.

For a good while I expect this will be it. Celebrate and allow the new route to bed in.

But where to go next? Extend from Llangollen East towards Ruabon? Maybe just as far as the New Wernffrwd nature reserve, or Trevor for the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct?

Or Westwards towards Bala?

Or neither!? Llangollen to Corwen is a lovely route. Stop now and focus on other aspects?

Any thoughts?

I can’t see any further expansion for the foreseeable future, simply too many difficulties involved.

In perfect world a railway from Ruabon to Bala would be a nice-to-have, however achieving that is way beyond reach.

With Llangollen being something of a honeypot one might think Ruabon would be a worthwhile target, however getting there would not be easy. On top of that, Llangollen is a strange place, the “weekend break” brigade don’t seem as interested in going for a ride on a steam train compared to the types of people who visit somewhere like the Ffestiniog’s territory.

 

[Spagnoletti]

There is still a very large 'to-do' list in the wake of the failure of the PLC two years ago. Further extension of the line could not be further from our minds at the moment.

 

[deevalley]

It may well have reached the optimal length for a preserved railway experience? The Ffestiniog seem to be finding that the full length of the Welsh Highland is a bit too long and costly for a family day out which provides much of the business, so they seem to be mostly operating that as halfway trips from each end with very few full length through trains (only something like two a week in each direction if I recall).

Yes that may be true - the current length between two reasonable sized towns makes sense.

East from Llangollen is out of the question, just by looking at satellite imagery.
West from Corwen the station sites have been repurposed, and the scenery isn't comparable with eg Berwyn.

Keeping the line going will be enough of a challenge, I imagine, as it is everywhere.

PS welcome to the forum!

I've heard mention of some kind of viaduct to get around the barriers to the immediate East of Llangollen. I'm not sure how possible this would be.

P.S. Thanks for the welcome - seems like a very active and friendly forum

I can’t see any further expansion for the foreseeable future, simply too many difficulties involved.

In perfect world a railway from Ruabon to Bala would be a nice-to-have, however achieving that is way beyond reach.

With Llangollen being something of a honeypot one might think Ruabon would be a worthwhile target, however getting there would not be easy. On top of that, Llangollen is a strange place, the “weekend break” brigade don’t seem as interested in going for a ride on a steam train compared to the types of people who visit somewhere like the Ffestiniog’s territory.

Talking to volunteers on the Corwen platform at the weekend, it seems there is more appetite to head back towards Ruabon than Westwards. There was mention of maybe a park and ride bus service from Ruabon direction. Maybe from Trevor at the Aqueduct site.

There is still a very large 'to-do' list in the wake of the failure of the PLC two years ago. Further extension of the line could not be further from our minds at the moment.

Absolutely. I guess the sale of assets to get through the PLC insolvency has caused problems? Getting Corwen up and running is a fantastic achievement, and it makes sense to consolidate what's in place. My question is more hypothetical than anything else.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Corwen to Bala (and beyond!) would work as a greenway/cycleway. The trackbed is largely unobstructed; I believe some of it is still owned by Denbighshire County Council; and it would work well with the wider family/outdoor tourism offer in the area. I can't see it stacking up as a preserved railway - Bala already has a preserved railway attraction and as @Bletchleyite says, the combined trip would be overly long for most day-trippers.

There seems to be some local interest in reopening Corwen to Denbigh which is even less likely to happen!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Corwen to Bala (and beyond!) would work as a greenway/cycleway.

Agree with this idea. For people wanting a long day out the railway could even look to market, along with a partner, combined train tickets and cycle hire. With an e-bike and preserved lines being limited in speed the end to end wouldn't be that far different!

 

[8A Rail]

The railway have now achieved their goal which was always Corwen. It has taken them from when the first train operated in 1981, at least 40 years to get there. Even it was possible (which it ain't for various reasons), the current climate at the railway and in the country in general prevents any thoughts of further expansion. The railway's main goal now, is to maintain what they have got which is a lot and attempt to increase patronage for this lovely tourist line.

 

[railfan99]

There is still a very large 'to-do' list in the wake of the failure of the PLC two years ago. Further extension of the line could not be further from our minds at the moment.

Congratulations! I visited from Australia in September 2022 and enjoyed this railway with its riverside operation, even though it was a diesel loco-hauled pass., not steam or historic railcar. There were more on the train before me than mine, as I was limited by having to travel by rail Preston to Ruabon and then the Arriva double-decker route bus.

How have passenger numbers been of late?

 

[John Luxton]

After many years of effort, the fantastic volunteers at Llangollen Railway have completed the dream of a line to a new permanent station at Corwen.
The station has been wonderfully designed and built. Customers, volunteers and staff can now enjoy this wonderful route.

For a good while I expect this will be it. Celebrate and allow the new route to bed in.

But where to go next? Extend from Llangollen East towards Ruabon? Maybe just as far as the New Wernffrwd nature reserve, or Trevor for the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct?

Or Westwards towards Bala?

Or neither!? Llangollen to Corwen is a lovely route. Stop now and focus on other aspects?

Any thoughts?

I was there at the weekend.

Corwen isn't completed yet - next task would be to fully signal it.

At present it appears to be operated as one engine in steam between Carrog and Corwen, thus the second platform cannot be taken advantage of.

Then the railway needs to consolidate its position promote Park and Ride from Corwen.

A later last train from Llangollen to Corwen is required - one of the DMUs which could be stabled at Carrog overnight which would probably be safer. On one visit to Corwen a few years ago to view progress I was aware the area around the bus stops in the adjacent car park is a bit of a hanging out area for local youths thus leaving rolling stock there might not be a good idea!!!

If one was going to extend in the future east to Ruabon is the only way to go. When the line closed prematurely it was due to flood damage between Corwen and Bala if I recall.

It is a great shame when the preservation scheme started no attempt was made to secure the Ruabon to Llangollen section as given the high tourist potential there would be a ready market.

I seem to recall about 10 years or so ago there was a feasibility article on reconnecting in either Steam Railway or Heritage Railway Magazine.

Perhaps the best way to facilitate reconnection to the mainline would be for TfW/Network Rail to reopen from Ruabon? - Hourly service Liverpool to Llangollen via Halton Curve? Given the popularity of Llangollen with visitors from Liverpool could probably be quite successful.

Could be single track with a platform on the east side of the road bridge. Yes its a constricted site but probably nor more so than say Looe and and end on connection with Llangolllen Railway for special trains could be made at the bridge.

Buildings on the track bed can be dealt with through compulsory purchase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then the railway needs to consolidate its position promote Park and Ride from Corwen.

This makes no sense at all. Most of the tourist traffic that is going to Llangollen is coming from the east. It isn't going to drive 20 minutes past Llangollen to get the train back. More likely it'll park in Llangollen, get the train to Corwen and back maybe stopping for a cup of tea or a portion of chips there, and head home. You might get a small amount of traffic stopping off on the way to North Wales but it's still going to mostly park in Llangollen.

If you wanted a Llangollen P&R then the way to do it would be to build a big car park by McDonald's up the hill and run an electric bus shuttle, but I'm not convinced there's any need.

It's not Corfe Castle and not even vaguely comparable. (Though parking in Corfe Castle isn't as hard as you'd think it'd be).

 

[30907]

Talking to volunteers on the Corwen platform at the weekend, it seems there is more appetite to head back towards Ruabon than Westwards. There was mention of maybe a park and ride bus service from Ruabon direction. Maybe from Trevor at the Aqueduct site.

Looking at satellite view there's potential for expanding the Trevor car park, so if Llangollen wanted a P+R that would be an obvious place. I doubt it would work just for the railway though.

 

[paul1609]

Theres a series of walks along the old Ruabon to Llangollen Route by Warren Davies in 2018.
It seems to suggest there's no chance of a preserved railway ever re-opening the route the following red cards seem to exist:
a) shared route with National rail (see Wareham profitability issues)
b) demolition of Llangollen health centre
c) demolition of a whole housing development in LLangollen.
d) demolition of various other houses.
Sorry but its never ever going to be a runner https://blogbeicio.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/trevor-to-llangollen-on-the-llangollen-railway/

 

[Techniquest]

Corwen to Bala (and beyond!) would work as a greenway/cycleway. The trackbed is largely unobstructed; I believe some of it is still owned by Denbighshire County Council; and it would work well with the wider family/outdoor tourism offer in the area. I can't see it stacking up as a preserved railway - Bala already has a preserved railway attraction and as @Bletchleyite says, the combined trip would be overly long for most day-trippers.

There seems to be some local interest in reopening Corwen to Denbigh which is even less likely to happen!

I'd have to agree with that, if the cycleway was done well I'd 100% be interested.

Many congratulations to everyone involved in the new station, I'm going to have to get back up there and revisit the line soon. I've not been since at least 2007, long overdue a revisit is!

 

[deevalley]

Corwen to Bala (and beyond!) would work as a greenway/cycleway.

Others have already agreed, but I would like to voice my agreement here too.

I love the history of the line, and if nothing is done with sections, then they risk being permanently blocked. Apart from being an potentially large attraction in itself, a greenway would protect and at allow people to explore the old route.

Going the other way, a greenway between Trevor and Llangollen could live alongside any track reinstatement. There should be space given the double track in this section. Of course there is already the canal towpath, but the narrow nature and low bridges doesn't suit people on horses or those on bikes.

Perhaps the best way to facilitate reconnection to the mainline would be for TfW/Network Rail to reopen from Ruabon? - Hourly service Liverpool to Llangollen via Halton Curve? Given the popularity of Llangollen with visitors from Liverpool could probably be quite successful.

That suggestion seems like one of the more realistic way of expanding Eastwards. Still feels like an unlikely scenario, but maybe there is a business case there!

 

[John Luxton]

This makes no sense at all. Most of the tourist traffic that is going to Llangollen is coming from the east. It isn't going to drive 20 minutes past Llangollen to get the train back. More likely it'll park in Llangollen, get the train to Corwen and back maybe stopping for a cup of tea or a portion of chips there, and head home. You might get a small amount of traffic stopping off on the way to North Wales but it's still going to mostly park in Llangollen.

If you wanted a Llangollen P&R then the way to do it would be to build a big car park by McDonald's up the hill and run an electric bus shuttle, but I'm not convinced there's any need.

It's not Corfe Castle and not even vaguely comparable. (Though parking in Corfe Castle isn't as hard as you'd think it'd be).

I disagree - there are a lot of people who come to the area from Bala / Snowdonia and North Wales coast areas on day trips.

Besides if approaching from Merseyside the A5104 through to Corwen is a good straight route without the traffic issues of coming via Chester / Wrexham. That is my least preferred way of getting there.

As a visitor to the line for many years since the line extended to Carrog I use the A5104 and then just turn off onto the B5436 to access Carrog.

Generally I tended to park at Carrog - much less hassle than Llangollen - it is free too.

I think like minded people have been using Carrog as a Park and Ride without it being promoted.

 

[Trainlog]

Yeah unfortunately it cant expand any further which is a shame as it is as what i like to put it an 'island heritage railway' (it will never reach the mainline again), however it achieved its ambition, and now goes between 2 towns successfully so honestly do they really need to expand any further?


On the topic of it being a potential Greenway (Corwen to Bala), would there be many cameos left over on the sections (Restored station sites, occasional lineside huts or signal posts, etc) or are talking you can make out the embankment, the occasional bridge and that's about it?

 

[John Luxton]

Something I forgot to mention earlier is that the line should now trade and market itself as the Llangollen and Corwen Railway dropping the Llangollen Railway title to make it clear it goes from somewhere to somewhere.

 

[Llanigraham]

All those proposing an extension further into the Eryri National Park shoudl first take note of the planning refusal given by them to the short extension to the Bala Lake Railway.

 

[Cowley]

There is still a very large 'to-do' list in the wake of the failure of the PLC two years ago. Further extension of the line could not be further from our minds at the moment.

Yes I got the impression visiting last year that there was a fairly big backlog of work that needed doing, general maintenance, painting, weed killing etc (and probably a lot more than that which couldn’t be seen).

It’s got to be about consolidation and future proofing the business from here hasn’t it? It’s a fantastic route as it stands now and it needs to eliminate risks rather than take on more.

Something I forgot to mention earlier is that the line should now trade and market itself as the Llangollen and Corwen Railway dropping the Llangollen Railway title to make it clear it goes from somewhere to somewhere.

I actually quite like this idea. It’s quite simple but could get across the prospect of seeing some of the beautiful area the railway runs through if you’re on holiday in the area.

 

[ian1944]

I seem to recall Corwen being some sort of hub on the Trawscymru bus system. If so, joint ticketing to/from Llangollen could add some business.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Great news on the extension. The railway is very much on my "to do" list as I'm quite the DMU buff. Unfortunately it's going to have to wait until I sort out a car due to the distance involved in getting there and the lack of a main-line interchange.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

On the topic of it being a potential Greenway (Corwen to Bala), would there be many cameos left over on the sections (Restored station sites, occasional lineside huts or signal posts, etc) or are talking you can make out the embankment, the occasional bridge and that's about it?

The trackbed seems to be pretty well preserved. I've only seen it in a couple of places (I cycled Bala–Corwen along parallel lanes as part of a longer ride the other year), but you can gather a fair amount from online sources.

The Corwen-Cynwyd section is already a (permissive) footpath and is being actively considered for upgrade to a greenway.

There's several impressive surviving structures like this bridge over the Dee:

Disused Railway Bridge Across the Dee © David Robinson cc-by-sa/2.0

The former Ruabon - Barmouth line crossing the Dee. Despite over 50 years of closure the bridge remains in good condition and sees some use by farm vehicles.

www.geograph.org.uk

though the other Dee bridge, near Llandrillo, is missing.

Llandderfel Tunnel looks good:

Hidden and Forgotten

Llandderfel railway line and tunnel The railway line and tunnel that the Queen would of embarked on during her Visit to North Wales in 1889. The railway line closed to passengers...

www.facebook.com

I don't know about structures like lineside huts - they certainly give "colour" to a route but they're probably not a huge draw for most people.

Ultimately (…checks we're in the "Speculative Discussion" board…) Llyn Celyn—Blaenau Ffestiniog is the standout candidate for a greenway in this part of Wales. Llyn Celyn—Trawsfynydd is incredibly scenic and full of structural interest, while the Trawsfynydd–Blaenau leg is unobstructed, mothballed railway and not short of structural interest either. (There is an aspirant heritage rail project but, perhaps, not the most realistic.) But greenway development tends to be speculative based on what funding pots are available, and any opportunity along this whole corridor should be seized.

 

[John Luxton]

Great news on the extension. The railway is very much on my "to do" list as I'm quite the DMU buff. Unfortunately it's going to have to wait until I sort out a car due to the distance involved in getting there and the lack of a main-line interchange.

Try and visit on the annual railcar gala when all the units come out to play. This year it is October 7th and 8th.

Yes I got the impression visiting last year that there was a fairly big backlog of work that needed doing, general maintenance, painting, weed killing etc (and probably a lot more than that which couldn’t be seen).

There appeared to have been a significant reduction in weeds compared to my last visit towards the end of last season in fact I have seen much worse on Network Rail!

The other issue which appears to have been tackled it the cleanliness of the loco hauled stock. The rail cars have always been well turned out but not so the Mark I carriages. However, I did note that these appeared much cleaner perhaps a bit more elbow grease was put in for the opening? If so it needs keeping that way. I am aware that it had developed a reputation of being rather grubby with some people I know and as a consequence they prefer to go to the SVR.

Something that has always struck me with Llangollen Railway ever since I started visiting in the late 1980s is that given its prime location it does appear to attract a lot of attention from visitors to the town and the station can be full of 'gongoozlers' but I often get the feeling that is all they do come and watch - but do they get on board and spend?

 

[railfan99]

Unfortunately it's going to have to wait until I sort out a car due to the distance involved in getting there and the lack of a main-line interchange.

If I as a visitor from overseas can connect to and from TfW at Ruabon with the Arriva double decker route bus, hopefully so can you.

At Llangollen it stops very close to the railway station, and at Ruabon one merely has to walk a brief distance out to the 'main road' from the station (which has a footbridge IIRC, so no level access to one platform).

 

[deevalley]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Really interesting reading.

 

[A0]

I think west from Corwen's out of the question - the removed bridge at Green Lane would need to be reinstated and you can see from the formation that was a *very* low bridge, which would cause a problem.
The old Corwen station site now has the fire station and industrial units on it, then there's the A5 - not sure if the railway went under it or had a level crossing there.

You've also got the challenge of reinstating steam railways is running into conflict with the environmental policies - a challenge the Bala Lake Railway is experiencing in trying to get into Bala town.

Going east from Llangollen would make more sense, but I suspect too much of the formation has been lost for it to ever be viable.

 

[higthomas]

The Ffestiniog seem to be finding that the full length of the Welsh Highland is a bit too long and costly for a family day out which provides much of the business, so they seem to be mostly operating that as halfway trips from each end with very few full length through trains (only something like two a week in each direction if I recall).

Off topic, sorry mods!: Wow, just looked up their "timetable" and what on earth is that! It's not being run as a railway, but a series of railtours. Utterly bizarre, and absolutely useless for anyone who wants anything more complex than a day return, e.g. walkers or people wanting time for lunch.