Lner or Northern

[eastersunday]

I've got a friend who is in a really fortunate position whereby he has got the option of choosing between both of these companies in Leeds, they've both offered him a contract as a trainee train driver. Obviously there is a big difference in salary, pretty sure Northern is £54k and LNER pay around £70k.
What about terms & conditions though? Struggling to find much on here about how they differ. Is one better than the other? Another big difference as a driver are the routes, LNER are more long-haul (down to London etc) whereas Northern tend to do shorter journeys, don't know if either of these make one more favourable to work for than the other? If anyone works for them and could put anything that would help I'll pass it onto him!

 

[tiptoptaff]

Take LNER. No question.

 

[DontPlayBoxing]

I know it's not all about the money, but 16k is quite some gap in pay.

 

[Seehof]

As a Northern driver you will have more stations to stop at in a day than some LNER drivers do in a week.

 

[16.19]

If you have the option for both LNER and Northern based at Leeds, go for LNER.

There is always a lot of talk about the difference between T&C between both companies but if you’re starting as a trainee you won’t know any different and LNER terms aren’t massively different but the pay gap is.

 

[AJD]

Meh, have done both types and intercity isn't the golden goose many believe it to be. We've even had one guy leave within his PQA because it wasn't anything like what he expected. Folk get very bored quite quickly nowadays more than I've ever known before. Yes, LNER pays more but Northern haven't sold all the conditions we have. Northern would be good for really learning how to drive trains and nailing the basics. Clean record for a few years then over to one of the long distance operators. Incident rates are sky high over here and it's becoming evident that anything but greens on the fast lines seems to shatter an increasing number of PQA drivers confidence to handle the train. Expectation bias, I believe (they're all over it in training at the moment).

 

[eastersunday]

Meh, have done both types and intercity isn't the golden goose many believe it to be. We've even had one guy leave within his PQA because it wasn't anything like what he expected. Folk get very bored quite quickly nowadays more than I've ever known before. Yes, LNER pays more but Northern haven't sold all the conditions we have. Northern would be good for really learning how to drive trains and nailing the basics. Clean record for a few years then over to one of the long distance operators. Incident rates are sky high over here and it's becoming evident that anything but greens on the fast lines seems to shatter an increasing number of PQA drivers confidence to handle the train. Expectation bias, I believe (they're all over it in training at the moment).

Very interesting if true! What conditions do Northern have that make them superior to lner then?

 

[Evolution]

Given the option of both I'd probably go for LNER (purely based on salary). Northern probably has the more interesting and varied work of the two and you will sign more routes and traction than you will at LNER.

If the salary at Northern was equal to LNER I'd probably opt for Northern based on the following:

• Maximum 4 hours movement from spare (must have 48 hours notice, otherwise 2 hours) on the West it's 3 hours max. LNER is 12 hour movement from spare, in effect you can start the week on an early and end it on a late/night- no thanks!
• You are rarely more than 90 minutes from your home depot at Northern, at LNER the overheads go down on a weekly basis and you're stuck potentially for hours miles from home. Same applies if you fail.
• Daily leave days can be cancelled at LNER, not the case at Northern.
• ECML is largely a boring, featureless route from Newcastle to London. Northern have probably some of the most scenic routes in the UK, Pennines, S&C etc.
• Northern has a better RDW agreement and as you move up the links the start and finish times are less extreme. LNER at Leeds has plenty of 03XX starts, 03XX finishes and quite a few nights.
• Northern (for now) have no door control, I'm pretty sure LNER release the doors which brings its own risks, potentially.

I've seen some of the Northern diagrams at Leeds, I use the messroom when over there so I've looked at their links and diagrams when visiting, they have some intensive jobs, think 10+ trips with short turnarounds and 70+ station stops on the extreme end. Some jobs were much steadier though.

LNER will be less stops and trips but could be more boring potentially. It's quite telling you never see people from LNER/Avanti/XC/TPE coming over to Northern but you do see Northern drivers going the other way, maybe this answers the question of which is best?

If Northern had accepted a deal around 5 or 6 years ago they would be on similar to LNER but it got voted down (I don't know the full terms as I don't work for them).

The salary after tax isn't massively more at LNER as the extra salary will be taxed at the higher rate (something worth thinking about).

Intercity used to be what most would aim for but these days some of the regional operations are paying more, SWR pays more than LNER/Avanti/XC. Then you have TPE/EMR/GWR which aren't really proper Intercity companies and do more semi-fast work- this middle ground probably is where you want to be. Better conditons than the IC operators and better and less intense work than Northern.

Whichever options he chooses and I'm sure he will be thoroughly happy with!

 

[AJD]

Can't speak for all the other drivers, but just what I've observed in the past four or so years. Not sure how NT conditions differ but I believe it's split depending on where you're based. Business divided into East and West and the conditions between the two differ. The biggest one that's often cited here is that Sundays are outside the working week on the West. Any Northern drivers care to weigh in?

 

[Evolution]

Can't speak for all the other drivers, but just what I've observed in the past four or so years. Not sure how NT conditions differ but I believe it's split depending on where you're based. Business divided into East and West and the conditions between the two differ. The biggest one that's often cited here is that Sundays are outside the working week on the West. Any Northern drivers care to weigh in?

Sundays are outside on the ex First North Western conditions but inside on ex Arriva Trains Northern eastern side, which Leeds falls under. Think they are also outside on the ex TPE conditions at BPN depot. There’s 3 sets of conditions at Northern as they are effectively 2 different companies.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Meh, have done both types and intercity isn't the golden goose many believe it to be. We've even had one guy leave within his PQA because it wasn't anything like what he expected. Folk get very bored quite quickly nowadays more than I've ever known before. Yes, LNER pays more but Northern haven't sold all the conditions we have. Northern would be good for really learning how to drive trains and nailing the basics. Clean record for a few years then over to one of the long distance operators. Incident rates are sky high over here and it's becoming evident that anything but greens on the fast lines seems to shatter an increasing number of PQA drivers confidence to handle the train. Expectation bias, I believe (they're all over it in training at the moment).

Agree with this and Evolution’s post. Not to say that I would choose Northern over LNER but the only massive plus point about LNER is the salary.

For Northern, are they going to be based at Leeds or is it going to be a depot a lot closer to home like Harrogate, etc… a closer commute is something you can’t underestimate. Having to travel an extra say 30 minutes each direction every day, you really start to feel it after a few years when the excitement wears off.

Personally, I would just go with the one that offers a contract first. Remember being in the talent pool is no guarantee of a job so you could be awaiting indefinitely for a job that will never come so if you get an offer from one TOC, I’d take it. Being at Northern even just for a couple years is fantastic experience with regards to routes/traction/variety/nature of work and you’ve always got the opportunity to move to a high speed operator later on down the line. Whereas if you start off at a high speed operator, where do you go from there as you’ve already hit the end of the road.

Regarding free train travel to London if you need it, Northern do have an agreement with Grand Central and of course you have free train travel all over the North of England.

 

[eastersunday]

Given the option of both I'd probably go for LNER (purely based on salary). Northern probably has the more interesting and varied work of the two and you will sign more routes and traction than you will at LNER.

If the salary at Northern was equal to LNER I'd probably opt for Northern based on the following:

• Maximum 4 hours movement from spare (must have 48 hours notice, otherwise 2 hours) on the West it's 3 hours max. LNER is 12 hour movement from spare, in effect you can start the week on an early and end it on a late/night- no thanks!
• You are rarely more than 90 minutes from your home depot at Northern, at LNER the overheads go down on a weekly basis and you're stuck potentially for hours miles from home. Same applies if you fail.
• Daily leave days can be cancelled at LNER, not the case at Northern.
• ECML is largely a boring, featureless route from Newcastle to London. Northern have probably some of the most scenic routes in the UK, Pennines, S&C etc.
• Northern has a better RDW agreement and as you move up the links the start and finish times are less extreme. LNER at Leeds has plenty of 03XX starts, 03XX finishes and quite a few nights.
• Northern (for now) have no door control, I'm pretty sure LNER release the doors which brings its own risks, potentially.

I've seen some of the Northern diagrams at Leeds, I use the messroom when over there so I've looked at their links and diagrams when visiting, they have some intensive jobs, think 10+ trips with short turnarounds and 70+ station stops on the extreme end. Some jobs were much steadier though.

LNER will be less stops and trips but could be more boring potentially. It's quite telling you never see people from LNER/Avanti/XC/TPE coming over to Northern but you do see Northern drivers going the other way, maybe this answers the question of which is best?

If Northern had accepted a deal around 5 or 6 years ago they would be on similar to LNER but it got voted down (I don't know the full terms as I don't work for them).

The salary after tax isn't massively more at LNER as the extra salary will be taxed at the higher rate (something worth thinking about).

Intercity used to be what most would aim for but these days some of the regional operations are paying more, SWR pays more than LNER/Avanti/XC. Then you have TPE/EMR/GWR which aren't really proper Intercity companies and do more semi-fast work- this middle ground probably is where you want to be. Better conditons than the IC operators and better and less intense work than Northern.

Whichever options he chooses and I'm sure he will be thoroughly happy with!

Thankyou for the insight, that's very helpful to pass on. What do you mean by daily leave days can be cancelled? Do lner really have authority to just cancel your day off as and when they wish? That's shocking if they can do that. Perhaps Northern will end up on similar pay to lner in the future with another vote.

At full salary for both companies, the difference is about a £9k difference after tax, however you have to remember that Northern do stagger their full salary over 3-4 years as a trainee 1st yr is 23k, second is 39k, third is 44k etc.. whereas you'd be on £70k immediately after becoming qualified at lner. So when you calculate the difference in pay over those 3-4 years, it's about a £40k difference which is enormous. Are the t&cs really worth losing out on that amount of money?

 

[Seehof]

It is true what a previous poster has said about driving on continuous greens in a featureless landscape. With Northern you become very proud of yourself (!) that you can drive different traction over some very varied and scenic routes. Driving Leeds to Manchester Victoria for example via the Calder Valley is pure pleasure even in a 142 which I did once!
Good Luck with your choice and career.

 

[Busyboy89]

Myself with young children. Floating/flexi weeks (so not knowing what days I’m working untill the sheets come out week before), annual leave days only being 100% granted the week before and the 12 hour movement off spare are all big negatives. But as they say horses for courses and it may suit some people. There’s always positives and negatives which ever the side of the fence your on.

Along we cycled long weekends I couldn’t cope not knowing my long weekend comes around every 3 week. We can book soemthing for next year and my long weekend is always the same 3 week rotation.

But great position to be in having the choice, which ever you decide I wish your friend the best of luck!

 

[tallpaul82]

Given the option of both I'd probably go for LNER (purely based on salary). Northern probably has the more interesting and varied work of the two and you will sign more routes and traction than you will at LNER.

If the salary at Northern was equal to LNER I'd probably opt for Northern based on the following:

• Maximum 4 hours movement from spare (must have 48 hours notice, otherwise 2 hours) on the West it's 3 hours max. LNER is 12 hour movement from spare, in effect you can start the week on an early and end it on a late/night- no thanks!
• You are rarely more than 90 minutes from your home depot at Northern, at LNER the overheads go down on a weekly basis and you're stuck potentially for hours miles from home. Same applies if you fail.
• Daily leave days can be cancelled at LNER, not the case at Northern.
• ECML is largely a boring, featureless route from Newcastle to London. Northern have probably some of the most scenic routes in the UK, Pennines, S&C etc.
• Northern has a better RDW agreement and as you move up the links the start and finish times are less extreme. LNER at Leeds has plenty of 03XX starts, 03XX finishes and quite a few nights.
• Northern (for now) have no door control, I'm pretty sure LNER release the doors which brings its own risks, potentially.

I've seen some of the Northern diagrams at Leeds, I use the messroom when over there so I've looked at their links and diagrams when visiting, they have some intensive jobs, think 10+ trips with short turnarounds and 70+ station stops on the extreme end. Some jobs were much steadier though.

LNER will be less stops and trips but could be more boring potentially. It's quite telling you never see people from LNER/Avanti/XC/TPE coming over to Northern but you do see Northern drivers going the other way, maybe this answers the question of which is best?

If Northern had accepted a deal around 5 or 6 years ago they would be on similar to LNER but it got voted down (I don't know the full terms as I don't work for them).

The salary after tax isn't massively more at LNER as the extra salary will be taxed at the higher rate (something worth thinking about).

Intercity used to be what most would aim for but these days some of the regional operations are paying more, SWR pays more than LNER/Avanti/XC. Then you have TPE/EMR/GWR which aren't really proper Intercity companies and do more semi-fast work- this middle ground probably is where you want to be. Better conditons than the IC operators and better and less intense work than Northern.

Whichever options he chooses and I'm sure he will be thoroughly happy with!

Just to add a few bits as an LNER driver:

I’m not really sure what’s meant by the movement from spare but you can only be rostered three hours either side of a spare shift and that comes out the week before when rosters are published.

Correct in that you can be miles away from home if there’s disruption. Happened to me last week but you do get paid and if less than 12 hours from next shift you come on later. It’s not an everyday occurrence.

Daily leave can’t be cancelled.

There’s a choice of links for Leeds depot. Earlies, two mids and a late shift. You chose your preference. My latest finish in my link is 17:48. Usually done by lunchtime though. It’s what suits you best. Swaps are doable as well if something clashes etc.

LNER release doors on Azumas (Not in Class 91’s). Not an issue and possibly less risk if you’ve stopped short in a Class 91. There is a risk of a wrong side door release but again very very rare. LNER don’t close doors.

 

[Economist]

There’s a choice of links for Leeds depot. Earlies, two mids and a late shift. You chose your preference. My latest finish in my link is 17:48. Usually done by lunchtime though. It’s what suits you best. Swaps are doable as well if something clashes etc.

That sounds like a far better way of doing things, sticking with the same time of day, than working rotational patterns as is the case with most TOCs.

Rotating between early and late shifts can take years off people's lives, no doubt great for companies which sell annuities but not so great for anyone else. Thankfully I've got a semi-permanent swap with a colleague in place so neither of us need to move out sleep pattern too much.

Non-rotational shifts are a massive selling point IMHO.

 

[800 Driver]

I've got a friend who is in a really fortunate position whereby he has got the option of choosing between both of these companies in Leeds, they've both offered him a contract as a trainee train driver. Obviously there is a big difference in salary, pretty sure Northern is £54k and LNER pay around £70k.
What about terms & conditions though? Struggling to find much on here about how they differ. Is one better than the other? Another big difference as a driver are the routes, LNER are more long-haul (down to London etc) whereas Northern tend to do shorter journeys, don't know if either of these make one more favourable to work for than the other? If anyone works for them and could put anything that would help I'll pass it onto him!

If you are happy concentrating for long periods with not much to do and prepared to be stranded away from home or heavily delayed multiple times a week, then go for the intercity option. If you need lots to do to keep you focused and want your day to finish near enough to when it's meant to then go for Northern. Better route and traction variety at Northern, LNER you'll pretty much be going to London every day.

 

[43066]

If you are happy concentrating for long periods with not much to do and prepared to be stranded away from home or heavily delayed multiple times a week, then go for the intercity option.

To be fair. I’ve driven intercity trains for several years, and have been properly stranded away from home just once (which just meant a five hour taxi drive home and a late start the next day, due to 12 hours between shifts).

It’s very rare to be more than a few minutes late at the end of a shift, and being late home isn’t something that happens any more than I found it did with metro work, in my experience.

 

[eastersunday]

If you are happy concentrating for long periods with not much to do and prepared to be stranded away from home or heavily delayed multiple times a week, then go for the intercity option. If you need lots to do to keep you focused and want your day to finish near enough to when it's meant to then go for Northern. Better route and traction variety at Northern, LNER you'll pretty much be going to London every day.

Pretty sure LNER go to Newcastle, London, York & Peterborough from Leeds, plus diversionary routes... so it can't just be London every day, that's a little short-sighted. Plus variety is great but it will also be harder to remember everything, there will be less of a routine too.

 

[tallpaul82]

From Leeds core route is Leeds to London via Doncaster. There’s branch routes of Harrogate, Skipton, Shipley as well as Newcastle. A couple of tractions plus depots of Leeds and Doncaster.

Probably 9 out of 10 is down to London and back.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

From Leeds core route is Leeds to London via Doncaster. There’s branch routes of Harrogate, Skipton, Shipley as well as Newcastle. A couple of tractions plus depots of Leeds and Doncaster.

Probably 9 out of 10 is down to London and back.

I guess even when you do get to go to Newcastle, it will be a very long day too- some sort of triangular working like Leeds to London, London to Newcastle then passenger back to Leeds?

 

[Yfg132]

How many leave or apply from Lner to Northern? And how many do you hear about applying or leaving northern for lner?