London black cabs/Knowledge versus Uber

[Bromley boy]

Interesting C4 documentary on this subject the other day "World's Toughest Taxi Test".

While I don't doubt the rigorous nature of the test, it is looking increasingly like a a white elephant in an age of advanced sat-navs, such as Waze, which not only direct drivers via either shortest/quickest route according to preference, but are able to take account of real-time traffic conditions en route.

I've found black cabs useful in the past for work purposes when going from one meeting to another in central London, particularly carrying heavy bags and document bundles (where I obviously wasn't picking up the tab). I can't ever imagine a scenario now where I could justify the cost of a black cab over Uber or public transport.

I use Uber, on occasion, mostly for journeys originating from home which I'd never use a black cab for.

Have any users of black cabs/uber got any thoughts on the future of the black taxi trade in London and what impact Uber, and other "disruptive" ride share/cab companies, is having on the ground?

In particular are there any cabbies on here who've noticed a downturn since the rise of Uber, or have things stayed broadly similar?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the way Uber avoids any awkwardness over money is a "killer app", and while I don't use Uber itself often the main local taxi firms in MK now have apps with similar functionality, and as a result I use taxis a lot more than I used to. It's just easy and convenient from the app.

As for "knowledge", sat-nav to a fair extent reduces the need for it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

TBF, MK is pretty well served by taxi firms, I generally use Speedline

 

[Jordeh]

I think your analysis is pretty spot on.

Black Cabs will continue to be used for business trips in the capital where the convenience of hailing a cab in the street is very important. The price is also likely to be less important to business users. Tourists will continue to use them too as they are very iconic.

But beyond that, I think Uber's will rule supreme. And good on them, they're significantly cheaper, highly convenient to use app and offer a high level of customer service because of the rating system.

Looking not too far into the future though (10 years?), Uber drivers and potentially Black Cab drivers will probably be out of a job due to autonomous vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBF, MK is pretty well served by taxi firms, I generally use Speedline

I slightly prefer Skyline's app so I tend to use that, but Speedline is fine as well. Cars are usually of high quality these days, too, normally newish Priuses (Prii? ). It's quite a contrast from the often highly dodgy, very local minicab firms in London that allowed Uber to grow. Uber is in MK (I've spoken to the driver who is trying to get it going when I used it once) but it's more expensive than the others for the same service so I see no reason to use it.

Interestingly Raffles (who I used to use) seem to be showing no interest in an app - if it weren't for the mobile taxi office they have at Xscape I wouldn't see them lasting.

And there is plenty of competition so fares are very low and the road system means journeys are very quick. For many journeys, particularly shorter ones, it's barely worth considering the bus.

 

[Simon11]

I watched the show and I don't understand why people still try to become a London cab driver.

For most of them, they are after the money however most train drivers earn far more, get paid for training (black cab drivers spend 4+ years training), don't have to pay any vehicle expenses, get a pension, sick pay, free travel....

Everyday I pass the taxi rank outside Liverpool street station and the street is filled with black cabs and usually, cabs are backing out onto the main road! Surely that can't be profitable for them.

 

[WestCoast]

Off-peak in Manchester I often use the Gett app which hails black cabs and the fares are usually very competitive against Uber, in fact you get a fixed fare before even ordering which is better than Uber. If you;re new to it you can get your first five or so rides with £5 off.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But beyond that, I think Uber's will rule supreme. And good on them, they're significantly cheaper, highly convenient to use app and offer a high level of customer service because of the rating system

Uber are losing hundreds of millions of dollars every year. That is only sustainable for so long, even in the Dotcom Bubble, and can really only be justified to investors in the short term as a way of distorting the market to secure market position.

I wouldn't be choosing Uber just because they're cheap, because once they drive the competition off the road they won't be. And, unlike with black cabs, there is no transparency at all on the price: the price is whatever Uber say it is.

But hackney carriage drivers really don't do themselves any favours sometimes. Last time I was in one it was about two miles and he whinged at me the whole time about how I was wasting his time and how it wasn't fair he got a "crappy job" after waiting at the station for ages. If it hadn't been pouring with rain (which was why I didn't walk) I'd have got out and not paid the moaning git a penny.

And minicab operators don't either, I've had it plenty of times where they've told me 60 minutes and then the missus has rung them straight after and got us a cab in 15. Uber gets rid of all those shenanigans.

I like the Uber app, when I'm steaming and I want to get home I use Uber because they turn up when they say they will and there's no hassle with a minicab operator.

I don't think SatNavs can usurp The Knowledge, and I think a reliance on SatNavs over local knowledge is a very bad thing. SatNavs have many good uses- they beat trying to read a map whilst driving- but they are only as intelligent as the person reading it. And we've seen a lot of stupid SatNav readers...

I watched the show and I don't understand why people still try to become a London cab driver.

For most of them, they are after the money however most train drivers earn far more, get paid for training (black cab drivers spend 4+ years training), don't have to pay any vehicle expenses, get a pension, sick pay, free travel....

You can train whilst you work elsewhere, and black cab drivers are their own boss. They work when they want to work, so if they don't fancy 5am on a Sunday they don't work at 5am on a Sunday. Train drivers don't get that luxury.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off-peak in Manchester I often use the Gett app which hails black cabs and the fares are usually very competitive against Uber, in fact you get a fixed fare before even ordering which is better than Uber. If you;re new to it you can get your first five or so rides with £5 off.

I do like the idea of a zonal fixed fare for taxi use, that way there is no scope to scam at all. Might not work in places with heavy traffic, though.

 

[richw]

I drive about 25000 a year. Google maps out does my local knowledge as it knows live traffic. Whilst on route it recalculates based on current traffic updates. My knowledge of the routes I take don't know the traffic ahead.

 

[J-2739]

I watched the show and I don't understand why people still try to become a London cab driver.

For most of them, they are after the money however most train drivers earn far more, get paid for training (black cab drivers spend 4+ years training), don't have to pay any vehicle expenses, get a pension, sick pay, free travel....

Everyday I pass the taxi rank outside Liverpool street station and the street is filled with black cabs and usually, cabs are backing out onto the main road! Surely that can't be profitable for them.

I'm betting you my life savings even bus drivers earn more than taxi drivers.

Simply a most stressful job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm betting you my life savings even bus drivers earn more than taxi drivers.

Simply a most stressful job.

Give me your money, as the documentary noted explained that taxi driving, if you work the same hours as your nominal bus driver, does pay a bit better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I drive about 25000 a year. Google maps out does my local knowledge as it knows live traffic. Whilst on route it recalculates based on current traffic updates. My knowledge of the routes I take don't know the traffic ahead.

Indeed, I always use sat-nav (Waze) on long journeys even if I know where I'm going, the traffic information (and crowdsourced additional information, such as reports of stationary vehicles and other risks) is an absolute killer app that really enhances the driving experience.

 

[J-2739]

Give me your money, as the documentary noted explained that taxi driving, if you work the same hours as your nominal bus driver, does pay a bit better.

I only have a tiny amount anyways... :cry:

Seriously though, I didn't watch the documentary, but I'm kinda surprised about that. A bus driver is put with more responsibilities than a taxi driver (a full bus of morning commuters vs the odd family for a taxi), and also deal with stricter deadlines. Surely they deserve better pay?

Not trying to drift too much off topic though.

 

[richw]

Give me your money, as the documentary noted explained that taxi driving, if you work the same hours as your nominal bus driver, does pay a bit better.

Having done some taxi driving for a few months a while back, this isn't as straight forward as it sounds.
I covered evenings, mid week I wasn't even covering minimum wage after expenses. Friday and Saturday evenings I was clearing £20 or more an hour to take home. My agreement with the owner was I took 50% after fuel expenses. The owner made me up to minimum wage where I didn't take enough to cover it over the shift.

Bus operators around here pay between minimum wage and £10 an hour.

 

[radamfi]

Taxi driving in most towns is probably poorly paid and may be worse paid than bus driving. Minicab/Uber driving in London is also probably not great pay. But London black cab driving is far more lucrative.

 

[Bromley boy]

I wouldn't be choosing Uber just because they're cheap, because once they drive the competition off the road they won't be. And, unlike with black cabs, there is no transparency at all on the price: the price is whatever Uber say it is.

But hackney carriage drivers really don't do themselves any favours sometimes. Last time I was in one it was about two miles and he whinged at me the whole time about how I was wasting his time and how it wasn't fair he got a "crappy job" after waiting at the station for ages. If it hadn't been pouring with rain (which was why I didn't walk) I'd have got out and not paid the moaning git a penny.

Agreed.

I've had an uber trip lasting around 45 mins starting at around 0300 from central London to zone 2/3 boundaries, including two drop-offs. This was in an immaculate, brand new, car with a friendly and courteous driver. For this, I was charged under £30. I struggle to see how this can be profitable unless the driver is working dangerously long hours.

That said, I'm not sure how transparent black cab pricing is. There is a minimum fare and then that fare will increase with the meter using an algorithm that takes account of both time and mileage. It all very much depends on which route the cabbie chooses to take, and I can't help but think "the knowledge" plays into the hands of the trade by training drivers to take passengers the shortest route, not necessarily the quickest. Uber, by contrast, will estimate the fare accurately before I've even hailed the cab from the app.

I've got into black cabs several times and been asked by the driver which route he wants me to take. That's not a question I expect or want to be asked as the answer is always simply "whichever is quickest".

I don't think SatNavs can usurp The Knowledge, and I think a reliance on SatNavs over local knowledge is a very bad thing. SatNavs have many good uses- they beat trying to read a map whilst driving- but they are only as intelligent as the person reading it. And we've seen a lot of stupid SatNav readers...
.

True about incompetent map readers. However, I wonder if you drive yourself? If so, give Waze or similar a try. You'll be amazed just how effective these systems have become. Waze knows every address within London/UK/Europe and calculates the quickest or shortest distance, according to preference, including real time traffic etc.

I regularly use it for my commute to work and it rarely takes me the same way twice. On an awkward and congested route through South East London zone 2/3 - zone 6, my journey times have become remarkably consistent.

Other than the ability to hail them on the street, I honestly can't see how a black cab driver equipped with the knowledge can offer a good enough point of difference to a mini-cab/Uber vehicle equipped with this kind of technology to justify the premium required.

 

[Bromley boy]

To me the way Uber avoids any awkwardness over money is a "killer app"

Absolutely.

No awkwardness over tipping, no need for either party to carry cash which is safer for both driver and passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got into black cabs several times and been asked by the driver which route he wants me to take. That's not a question I expect or want to be asked as the answer is always simply "whichever is quickest".

For you maybe, but others may choose "whichever is shortest" as that might save them a few quid.

 

[BestWestern]

I watched the show and I don't understand why people still try to become a London cab driver.

For most of them, they are after the money however most train drivers earn far more, get paid for training (black cab drivers spend 4+ years training), don't have to pay any vehicle expenses, get a pension, sick pay, free travel....

I would be extremely surprised if becoming a black cab driver is anywhere even close to as difficult as becoming a train driver. It's hardly a straight choice between the two trades!

 

[BestWestern]

Looking not too far into the future though (10 years?), Uber drivers and potentially Black Cab drivers will probably be out of a job due to autonomous vehicles.

I think we'll be looking at a lot longer than ten years before cab drivers are obselete.

 

[simonw]

Absolutely.

No awkwardness over tipping, no need for either party to carry cash which is safer for both driver and passenger.

Most Black cabs in London accept cards and do so via contactless pay as well.

 

[radamfi]

Most Black cabs in London accept cards and do so via contactless pay as well.

But they still want a tip even if you pay by card.

 

[Bromley boy]

For you maybe, but others may choose "whichever is shortest" as that might save them a few quid.

Not if they end up stuck in traffic or, like one of my my more memorable black taxi journeys, waiting while Tower Bridge opened.

The cabbie saved himself some money by switching off the engine, but kept the meter running!

 

[gsnedders]

I don't think SatNavs can usurp The Knowledge, and I think a reliance on SatNavs over local knowledge is a very bad thing. SatNavs have many good uses- they beat trying to read a map whilst driving- but they are only as intelligent as the person reading it. And we've seen a lot of stupid SatNav readers...

Especially in major thoroughfares in big cities, and especially at the peaks, you can often practically be required to be in a certain lane (often queuing a long way back) long before any signage of the junction and long before any sat nav will tell you what lane you need to be in, forcing you to cut in later in the queue and hope someone lets you in. Even if you're aware you're turning up ahead, if you don't know the area, you can't know whether the queuing traffic is for your junction or for something before it.

 

[paddington]

Especially in major thoroughfares in big cities, and especially at the peaks, you can often practically be required to be in a certain lane (often queuing a long way back) long before any signage of the junction and long before any sat nav will tell you what lane you need to be in, forcing you to cut in later in the queue and hope someone lets you in. Even if you're aware you're turning up ahead, if you don't know the area, you can't know whether the queuing traffic is for your junction or for something before it.

This is true, but not an insurmountable problem for a GPS or mapping program

It's one of the challenges that self-driving cars will need to overcome too

I believe that it will not be possible to have completely self-driving cars (at least within a particular defined urban area) unless all cars are self-driving, but when this happens, all cars will basically be taxis

 

[WelshBluebird]

Most Black cabs in London accept cards and do so via contactless pay as well.

Legally they have to now. Though I still wouldn't be surprised if you still find some where "the machine is broken" or where they are "not going south of the river".

 

[Abpj17]

Legally they have to now. Though I still wouldn't be surprised if you still find some where "the machine is broken" or where they are "not going south of the river".

Yes. And some of the machine set ups are far better than others. Some it is a quick and efficient experience (but no tip). Once I've literally had to do card twice for it to go through. Often it's a confusing sequence of buttons because of tip options.

More broadly, particular in journeys firmly within zone 1, I think and hope black cab knowledge still has a valuable place. The drivers know the short cuts that apps don't, keep up with the constantly changing roadworks, and I've never know them get lost.

Uber drivers are a lot more hit and miss. They tend to rely heavily on sat nav and don't follow the map pin...so I've been dropped off on the 'wrong' side of blackfriars bridge before, taken long detours which bump the price up, trekked 100m down the road cos they are lost / don't know where named hotels are.

I can see the knowledge shrinking down even further to just zone 1, airports and major tourist areas.

 

[fowler9]

A very good mate of mine gave up a management job in the civil service to be a Blaxi driver about a year and a half ago. Loves it and is making a lot more than he was in his old job. He works hard but he doesn't mind it because he is his own boss and prefers being out on the road to being in an office. Don't get me wrong even he would admit there are negative sides to it.

 

[Bromley boy]

More broadly, particular in journeys firmly within zone 1, I think and hope black cab knowledge still has a valuable place. The drivers know the short cuts that apps don't, keep up with the constantly changing roadworks, and I've never know them get lost.

Uber drivers are a lot more hit and miss. They tend to rely heavily on sat nav and don't follow the map pin...so I've been dropped off on the 'wrong' side of blackfriars bridge before, taken long detours which bump the price up, trekked 100m down the road cos they are lost / don't know where named hotels are.

I can see the knowledge shrinking down even further to just zone 1, airports and major tourist areas.

I hope so too, because I respect what taxi drivers have done in completing the knowledge. It's probably hypocritical of me to say that given my other comment on this thread that I probably wouldn't use a black taxi over uber. In fact people like me respecting, but no longer using, black taxis are probably their biggest problem.

I have a lot of sympathy with their argument that TFL seem to restrict them to a very high level but seem a lot more lax in regulating (and enforcing regulation of) mini cabs, ADDLEE, Uber etc.