London off-peak travelcards and off peak restrictions on the tube

[Fermiboson]

The other day I held an Oxford > London Z1-6 travelcard and got on the tube after 5pm. The ticket as rejected due to it being a railcard ticket (i.e. gateline error code 09) and so I showed my ticket to a staff member. The staff member refused to let me through the barriers and said that the ticket was not valid during the tube off peak times, incorrectly claiming that this was the reason the ticket was rejected (it had been rejected with the same error code for the entire day). I made the argument that the restriction in question was an NR one (P7), and it said nothing about TfL peak times. He then directed me to another staff member, who did let me through. I asked whether my argument was accurate, and he agreed that TfL off peak restrictions were not listed in P7 and it was therefore "a grey zone, up for interpretation". I did not encounter any further issues travelling during peak time after this.

Recently I've learned of a friend travelling with a similar travelcard on the same P7 restriction who was threatened with (but ultimately not given after a somewhat spirited argument) a Penalty Charge on a rare Overground revenue check. What is the legal status of this, and are there any cases of TfL penalising people for using NR off peak travelcards during tube peak hours?

 

[Mawkie]

If my memory serves me correctly, 09 is a damaged ticket on a TfL gateline - for example demagnetised. So I don't think your ticket was declined due to being a railcard ticket.

 

[Benjwri]

This is very clearly defined under ‘Day Travelcard’ on this page:

Day Travelcard​

You can get unlimited travel in one day with a Day Travelcard (paper ticket):

• Anytime Day Travelcards: use for the date on the ticket and for journeys starting before 04:30 the next day
• Off-peak Day Travelcards: use from 09:30 (Monday to Friday), anytime on weekends or bank holidays for the date on the ticket and for journeys starting before 04:30 the next day

When inside zones 1-6 the national rail restrictions do not apply. Off Peak out boundary travel cards are valid any time after 9:30 including the evening peak.

In future show that page, and if they don’t agree tap in and claim back off TfL.

It is very disappointing to see this and you should send a complaint to TfL about the station so action can be taken to correct staff training.

 

[AdamWW]

Recently I've learned of a friend travelling with a similar travelcard on the same P7 restriction who was threatened with (but ultimately not given after a somewhat spirited argument) a Penalty Charge on a rare Overground revenue check.

And a penalty fare for using an off peak ticket on peak would be invalid anyway.

This is very clearly defined under ‘Day Travelcard’ on this page:

When inside zones 1-6 the national rail restrictions do not apply. Off Peak out boundary travel cards are valid any time after 9:30 including the evening peak.

I suppose you could argue this is only intended to describe the usage of "stand-alone" paper travelcards.

But given that there is no off peak evening restriction on a paper day travelcard it seems rather strange to argue that a travelcard should acquire such a restriction when sold as part of a ticket from outside the zones even if it has "off peak" in the name.

 

[Benjwri]

And a penalty fare for using an off peak ticket on peak would be invalid anyway.



I suppose you could argue this is only intended to describe the usage of "stand-alone" paper travelcards.

But given that there is no off peak evening restriction on a paper day travelcard it seems rather strange to argue that a travelcard should acquire such a restriction when sold as part of a ticket from outside the zones even if it has "off peak" in the name.

While I’ll admit the actual wording has probably been lost to time, out boundary travelcards are a type of day travelcard, or a day travelcard with a single boundary zone journey attached. Either way it is a day travelcard and the stated rules apply.

 

[etr221]

Looking up restriction P7, it does not give a general 'pm peak' restriction (for "return journey"), except "Not valid to depart from London Euston between 15:59 and 18:16", everything else is for specific trains (mostly from Paddington). So, quite apart the general TfL OP Day Travelcard terms above, no restriction from an LU tube station.

 

[aftv]

If my memory serves me correctly, 09 is a damaged ticket on a TfL gateline - for example demagnetised. So I don't think your ticket was declined due to being a railcard ticket.

It is. I learnt the hard way a few weeks back when id somehow managed to demagnetise my travelcard

 

[furlong]

A Travelcard from Oxford is defined legally as consisting of two parts - a normal travelcard subject only to travelcard restrictions (referenced in earlier post) within zones 1 to 6, plus a return from Oxford to the boundary station (e.g. West Drayton) subject to the National Rail restrictions (e.g. P7). Any railcard time restrictions are intended to apply to both parts. National Rail restriction codes do not apply when travelling within the 6 zones (e.g. Overground).

09 is indeed a messed up magnetic stripe, either caused by interference or more usually faulty equipment in the last device to write to it (e.g. the last gate that it opened, or the issuing machine). Where a gate is faulty, you'll sometimes see 09 preceded by one other code such as 08.

 

[1D54]

It is. I learnt the hard way a few weeks back when id somehow managed to demagnetise my travelcard

Sorry to go slightly off thread but i had the same problem with a paper TfL Travel Card a few months ago. What sort of thing can come in to contact with the TC so as to demagnetise it? It was very frustrating having to keep going to staff to be allowed through gatelines.

 

[Benjwri]

What sort of thing can come in to contact with the TC so as to demagnetise it?

Really anything metal or magnetic, phones, coins, keys etc.

I would suggest getting an ITSO card, depending on what area you live in, if it’s outside London, or using contactless and tapping (Or an Oyster card if you have a railcard). These work almost flawlessly.

 

[1D54]

Makes total sense as i don't even put it in my wallet as it is in and out all the time and is usually tucked in my pocket next to my phone.

I'm based in the Midlands but am old fashioned and prefer paper tickets but will be keeping them away from the above mentioned articles in the future. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Haywain]

Really anything metal or magnetic, phones, coins, keys etc.

And readers/writers on ticket gates - it can be the case that the data is corrupted by a gate. It could even be that it was not 'written' correctly by the issuing machine.

 

[MrJeeves]

Really anything metal or magnetic, phones, coins, keys etc.

I would suggest getting an ITSO card, depending on what area you live in, if it’s outside London, or using contactless and tapping (Or an Oyster card if you have a railcard). These work almost flawlessly.

All well and good unless you want any super off-peak ticket...

 

[AdamWW]

While I’ll admit the actual wording has probably been lost to time, out boundary travelcards are a type of day travelcard, or a day travelcard with a single boundary zone journey attached. Either way it is a day travelcard and the stated rules apply.

I know that. You know that. I was just thinking of the line of reasoning a member of staff who'd invented an afternoon restriction might use if presented with that web page, since it doesn't expliclty say that it applies to out of boundary travelcards.

And readers/writers on ticket gates - it can be the case that the data is corrupted by a gate. It could even be that it was not 'written' correctly by the issuing machine.

09 is indeed a messed up magnetic stripe, either caused by interference or more usually faulty equipment in the last device to write to it (e.g. the last gate that it opened, or the issuing machine). Where a gate is faulty, you'll sometimes see 09 preceded by one other code such as 08.

I've had that a few times. Ticket is spat out and sucked in a few times, then rejected with code 08. Then after that (on the same gate or any other) it fails with code 09.

I'm pretty sure the gate is causing the problem since it's happened a few times in the same place.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

r using contactless and tapping (Or an Oyster card if you have a railcard).

When you have a railcard, an off peak Travelcard can work out a little cheaper for days out in London than the alternative of "off peak London Terminals" plus Oyster. The point being that the peak hour surcharges which apply to Oyster and contactless don't apply.

 

[island]

There are a number of TfL* ticket gates improperly rejecting off peak day travelcards between 1600-1900, but this will be on code 107 (ticket not valid at this time). Code 09 means a demagnetised magstripe.

*I use TfL in the broad sense to include its subsidiaries, contractors, and concessionaires)

 

[Fermiboson]

A Travelcard from Oxford is defined legally as consisting of two parts - a normal travelcard subject only to travelcard restrictions (referenced in earlier post) within zones 1 to 6, plus a return from Oxford to the boundary station (e.g. West Drayton) subject to the National Rail restrictions (e.g. P7). Any railcard time restrictions are intended to apply to both parts. National Rail restriction codes do not apply when travelling within the 6 zones (e.g. Overground).

P7 does, however, have some bizzare restrictions within the zones, such as:

Not valid on trains timed to arrive at the following stations before the time shown:

• 09:33 at Balham
• 10:00 at Barbican Underground
• 09:47 at Clapham High Street
• 09:51 at Clapham Junction (also valid to arrive at 09:43)
  09:48 at Ealing Broadway

etc. etc.
So if I, for whatever reason, end up within the zones that morning (without using any of the explicitly restricted NR services) and decide to take the tube to Barbican at 0950, does that make my travelcard invalid?

 

[MrJeeves]

So if I, for whatever reason, end up within the zones that morning (without using any of the explicitly restricted NR services) and decide to take the tube to Barbican at 0950, does that make my travelcard invalid?

No, they exist purely to prevent people using peak trains from outside the zones into London. I think calling them bizarre is a bit of a stretch!

There should really be a sentence at the end stating the restrictions don't apply for journeys wholly within Zones 1-6 like PB has.

 

[Hadders]

An outboundary off-peak day travelcard has no restrictions within fare zones 1-6 after 09:30.

 

[bkhtele]

Also wireless headsets have small magnets inside. Any magnet in contact with the mag strip will wipe it & the ticket will report an 09 at the gates. Smartcards are more robust!