London St Pancras/Nottingham to Glasgow Central Loco Hauled in 1970s

[Whistler40145]

Not sure which section this fits in, so please move it!

I know there used to be direct Loco Hauled services from London St Pancras through to Glasgow Central. I believe they were later cut back to Nottingham through to Glasgow Central.

Were the services booked to run straight up the Midland Main Line to Sheffield?

Did the service reverse @ Leeds & was it booked for a fresh locomotive?

Which routes were used during diversions, e.g. Beattock?

What was booked motive power & which classes made occasional appearances e.g. 2x25 or 2x31?

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'm fairly sure it only got as far south as Nottingham in 1977, however I don't know if it started from Glasgow or Carlisle

 

[Whistler40145]

One train I'm sure was the Thames-Clyde Express from London St Pancras.

 

[caliwag]

I used it a few times in the late 70s, and a weekends it was a long, well-used train. As I recall it ran from Glasgow Central to Nottingham via Dumfries and S+C. At Leeds there was a change of loco and it reversed. In the late 70s it was Peak. For some reason I seem to recall there were 3 each way a day.

 

[Buttsy]

There are a number of pics in books on the S&C that show it as a Peak or 47 hauled service. I have timetables for the mid 70s so, if I remember when I get home, I'll have a look at the overall timing, the probable route south of Sheffield for the TCE and the last year it was a through service from London.

 

[Polarbear]

From memory, the through service from St Pancras to Glasgow ceased in around 1976 (one a day each way) & from then until the early 1980's, there were three loco hauled Nottingham - Glasgow trains per day (usually hauled by a Peak).

Memory also suggests some pretty grotty MK1's appearing on this service too!

 

[Taunton]

Really belongs on the history pages, but these services were changed over the years, including the cut-back to Nottingham, but typically were descendents of the old Midland route main line, from when the Peaks first came along around 1961 they monopolised it until loco hauled service ended. This was true of the Midland in general, apart from odd substitutions by Class 47s, although most of these allocated to the Midland had no heating boilers and thus were not suitable for passenger service. Any train that reversed at Leeds normally got a new loco there, run-rounds anywhere were generally uncommon in times past.

An unusual feature for a couple of years, when Trent station was still open, was the northbound train from St Pancras ran through Corby to Nottingham, then to Derby, then to Leeds (reverse, new loco) and onward. Meanwhile the southbound came from Chesterfield straight down the Erewash Valley line, missing both Derby and Nottingham, and stopped at the same platform, pointing the same way, at Trent, although headed in the opposite direction.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does anyone know why & when Classes 40 & 45 banned from Glasgow Central?

 

[ilkestonian]

Does anyone know why & when Classes 40 & 45 banned from Glasgow Central?

This is from memory, having read it here or elsewhere, but my recollection is that the pesky four axle bogies had a nasty habit of developing an "earth fault" on some of the pointwork. No idea when though...

 

[30907]

I would also guess mid 70's for the withdrawal of the Thames-Clyde, but in its last years IIRC it was routed via Nottingham (reverse and re-engine).
At that stage the other regular S and C train (once the stoppers had gone around 1970) was the Leeds-Glasgow (complete with Gresley buffet car).
Both were routed via the GSW Kilmarnock route.

A little later the Leeds-Glasgow became a Nottingham-Glasgow, the replacement Thames-Clyde was diverted over Beattock (after electrification), and a third train pair Carlisle-Nottingham-Carlisle was introduced (4 Mk 1's IIRC).
These survived (the Beattock train pair being a very inefficient working requiring two sets) till the cutbacks when closure was being threatened.

 

[Essexman]

I think it was 1977 that the through St Pancras - Glasgow trains via S&C ceased.

 

[CatfordCat]

I have a (doorstep sized) 1974-5 all lines timetable to hand, and it shows (Mon - Fri)

0800 St Pancras - Glasgow Central, calling at Kettering, Leicester, Nottingham, Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds City, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Annan, Dumfries, Kirkconnell, Kilmarnock, arrive Glasgow 1720

Southbound equivalent 0955 ex Glasgow, arrive St Pancras 1910

The timetable also shows a nightly sleeper in each direction Glasgow - Leeds - Nottingham (the northbound was a through train, 2130 ex St Pancras, with sleeper accommodation from Nottingham.)

 

[Buttsy]

Just checking in the 76/77 timetable, there is no daytime through service from St Pancras, though the sleeper is still running.

In the 77/78 timetable, the sleeper also seems to have ceased going via the S&C

 

[Mitch in Notts]

My 1972 Bus Timetable (sorry folks) lists Train Departures!

Nottingham to Glasgow 1118(NSu) 1214(Suo) & 2354. All calling at Sheffield & Leeds. They left Leicester at 1039(NSu) 1137(SuO) & 2307. Chesterfield at 0055, 1151(NSu) & 1317(Suo).
Derby had through Glasgow trains at 0028(0036 SuO) & 1249(SuO). So was the 2354 ex Nottingham routed via Derby?

My 1973 contains partial rail timetables.
Includes:
0800 St Pancras, 0903 Kettering, 0936 Leicester, 1006(arr) Nottingham to Glasgow. 2-2.5hours later on Sundays.
2130 St Pancras, 2232 Kettering, 2309 Leicester, 2322 Loughborough, 2339 Nottingham, 0020 Derby to Glasgow.

Return Direction:
(SuO). From Glasgow then 0459 Derby, 0532 Nottingham, 0612 Leicester, 0642 Kettering, 0731 Luton to St Pancras 0816.
(NSu)From Glasgow then 0618 Derby to Nottingham 0644 only.
From Glasgow then 1701 Nottingham, 1730 Leicester, 1759 Kettering, 1906 St Pancras. 1 hour later Sundays.

 

[caliwag]

From memory, the through service from St Pancras to Glasgow ceased in around 1976 (one a day each way) & from then until the early 1980's, there were three loco hauled Nottingham - Glasgow trains per day (usually hauled by a Peak).

Memory also suggests some pretty grotty MK1's appearing on this service too!

Interesting. I recall around 1980 travelling from Carlisle to Leeds in a superb Mk1 buffet...unusual layout. Hope it's preserved but probably not.

 

[Mvann]

In sure my great uncle used to catch an overnight train to Scotland from Leicester for his annual holiday up to Oban.

 

[Taunton]

The former Midland Railway Settle & Carlisle route maintained its relationships from Carlisle with the GSW route to Glasgow and the North British 'Waverley' route through Hawick to Edinburgh long after this became irrelevant after the 1923 grouping, when the former Caledonian route offered a better all-LMS route to both Scottish cities - in fact this lasted for more than 50 years after the grouping, for no obvious commercial reason, although the Waverley route closed in 1969, when services to Edinburgh were effectively just given up rather than diverted via Carstairs.

There were both day and night (with sleeping car) services from St Pancras to both Glasgow and Edinburgh via the route.

Interesting. I recall around 1980 travelling from Carlisle to Leeds in a superb Mk1 buffet...unusual layout.

A number of Mk 1 buffets were rebuilt as odd projects in the 1970s with improved facilities like more refrigeration. One source says there were no formal drawings issued and the carpenter and plumber at one of the carriage works effectively worked on their own initiative, hence some unique arrangements.

 

[The Big Boo]

I used it a few times in the late 70s, and a weekends it was a long, well-used train. As I recall it ran from Glasgow Central to Nottingham via Dumfries and S+C. At Leeds there was a change of loco and it reversed. In the late 70s it was Peak. For some reason I seem to recall there were 3 each way a day.

There were a couple a day m8.

07.00 and 15.00 outta Glasgow Central.

Peaks or Duffs from Leeds iirc.

 

[poshfan]

I used it in the late 70's to go from Leicester to Carlisle to get the Settle & Carlisle line in, and came back via WCML and Nuneaton. At that time it ran to Glasgow via Dumfries, I think there were 3 per day, mostly starting from Nottingham except on Saturdays when one started from Leicester. It ran non-stop between Sheffield and Leeds via the Cudworth line, and reversed at Leeds.

 

[Wyvern]

Back in the 'sixties I remember London-Glasgow trains through Derby. I assumed at the time they were the normal Manchester trains extended. Trains from Leeds etc through Derby were mostly for the West Country.

 

[Bevan Price]

Back in the 'sixties I remember London-Glasgow trains through Derby. I assumed at the time they were the normal Manchester trains extended. Trains from Leeds etc through Derby were mostly for the West Country.

From Summer 1961 timetable. Northbound services (Mondays - Fridays), times from St. Pancras:

09:10 (The Waverley), calling at Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, Skipton, Hellifield, Appleby, Carlisle, Hawick, St. Boswells, Galashiels & Edinburgh.

10:10 (The Thames Clyde Express), calling at Leicester,Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, Carlisle, Annan, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow St. Enoch.

20:50 (FO) calling at Luton, Nottingham, Sheffield, Skipton, Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow St. Enoch

21:10 (Sleeper) calling at Kettering, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Skiptom, Hellifield, Appleby, Carlisle, Newcastleton, Hawick, St. Boswells, Melrose, Galashiels & Edinburgh.

21:25 (Sleeper) calling at Wellingborough, Kettering, Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, Keighley, Carlisle, Annan, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Glasgow St. Enoch.

There were also a few summer saturday services covering all, or part of the route, including:
09:25 from St. Pancras, running semi-fast to Leicester, then Sheffield, Carlisle, Annan, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow St. Enoch.
Also a 09:20 (SO) Manchester Victoria - Glasgow St. Enoch via Hellifield, Carlisle & GSW route