London to Portsmouth and/or Southampton

[prd101]

Occasionally I travel from London to either Portsmouth or Southampton to get to the IOW. I'm interested in the validity return tickets to either, as follows. All for off peak returns with a network railcard:

1. London to Southampton. Is this valid via Portsmouth Harbour? Is it so in either direction? Can I start or finish my journey at Portsmouth Harbour?

2. London to Portsmouth. Same questions basically, is this valid via Southampton?

 

[dan_atki]

1. By maps CW+PD of the National Routeing Guide, travel from London down the Portsmouth Direct line (via Guildford and Haslemere) to Portsmouth and then onto Southampton is permitted.

Furthermore, by maps CW+LB, travel from London down the Brighton Mainline (via Gatwick Airport) then onto Hove (via Brighton and even Lewes if you really wanted as well!) and along the West Coastway line to Portsmouth (via Worthing, Barnham, and Havant), and then onto Southampton is also permitted.

2. Sadly not in reverse. The furthest you can get is Eastleigh before needing to go via Hedge End to get to Fareham rather than Southampton Central (by map WW).

 

[clagmonster]

Indeed, and break of journey is valid on all London terminals-Southampton ticket types, therefore you could cut your journey short at Portsmouth Harbour on a London Terminals-Southampton Ctl ticket.
I assume that you know that you can also buy through tickets from London to the Isle of White.

 

[prd101]

Thanks. Would the same apply for a journey starting north of London, eg. York, or Bedford? ie: the same routing possibilitie valid once I get to Waterloo, even though my ticket starts in a different place?

 

[dan_atki]

Yes, one of the routeing possibilities will be 'London' and as such you use the routing guide to determine a valid route to London, and a valid route from London.

The latter is exactly the same as finding permitted routes from London to Portsmouth/Southampton as I checked above .

 

[Matt Taylor]

It isn't that straightforward.

A London to Southampton ticket is valid via a change of train at Havant or at Hilsea, however an easement applies to allow passengers to travel on to Fratton (as Hilsea is an unstaffed station with no disabled access). Travelling on to Portsmouth & Southsea or Portsmouth Harbour falls foul of the 'doubling back' rule unless you are travelling a train that goes from Havant to Cosham via Portsmouth Harbour.

To travel via Portsmouth Harbour would require an additional ticket from Fratton to the Harbour.

 

[prd101]

I suspected that 'doubling back' rule might be an issue. What about the Portsmouth stations (including Fratton?) being in a group, does that affect things or not?

Also, yes I often do buy through tickets to the IOW. This routing question should permit me to do a ferry crossing between Southampton and Cowes (as a single) on the outward leg and then Ryde To Portsmouth (single) on the return, or vice versa.

This is the scenario that I really need to think about:

I get on the Waterloo train at Portsmouth Harbour. I have with me a London to Southampton Return ticket. OK, so I might have an additonal ticket to somewhere like Havant or Fratton. At this point, I haven't actually started my journey at Southampton and so I haven't actually broken my return leg. Am I pushing the rules slightly here, or is it ok?

 

[dan_atki]

It isn't that straightforward.

A London to Southampton ticket is valid via a change of train at Havant or at Hilsea, however an easement applies to allow passengers to travel on to Fratton (as Hilsea is an unstaffed station with no disabled access). Travelling on to Portsmouth & Southsea or Portsmouth Harbour falls foul of the 'doubling back' rule unless you are travelling a train that goes from Havant to Cosham via Portsmouth Harbour.

To travel via Portsmouth Harbour would require an additional ticket from Fratton to the Harbour.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree, the routeing guide states that if travel is via a group (in this case it is - Portsmouth Group), then provided the origin or destination of the journey is NOT in the group then you can double back through the group as you wish.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is the scenario that I really need to think about:

I get on the Waterloo train at Portsmouth Harbour. I have with me a London to Southampton Return ticket. OK, so I might have an additonal ticket to somewhere like Havant or Fratton. At this point, I haven't actually started my journey at Southampton and so I haven't actually broken my return leg. Am I pushing the rules slightly here, or is it ok?

Provided the train you are on is going via Guildford and not Basingstoke, then yes that is fine. The journey can be started at a place short* of the origin printed on the ticket, provided you are on a walk up ticket, and one that permits break of journey on both legs**.

*By this I mean a station on a permitted route between the origin and destination of the ticket.

**This is not an issue here when travelling with SWT. They do not have advance tickets for Waterloo to Portsmouth/Southampton and their Off Peak Returns (as well as all other walk up types) allow break of journey on both legs for these flows.

Southern have advance tickets from Victoria to Portsmouth/Southampton. These do not permit any break of journey, and the journey must be fully completed as per the itenary you are given with the ticket.

 

[Matt Taylor]

It is a confusing situation, a ticket to Fratton is not valid at Southsea or the Harbour as from some stations there is a price differential. In addition the routing guide does not take into account the fact that SN now run two trains per hour direct from Cosham to Havant, thus a Cosham to Havant ticket is not valid at Southsea or the Harbour.

A further complication is that the doubling back rule was eased to allow passengers to travel via Southsea in order that they may use the lift if they required assistance, but as of July 28th this year Fratton is now fully compliant for disabled passengers now the lift and bridge have been opened to the public.

 

[clagmonster]

The national routing guide says the following about group stations:
"GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group."

The Portsmouth group is comprised as follows:
"PORTSMOUTH GROUP BEDHAMPTON
COSHAM
FAREHAM
FRATTON
HILSEA
PORTSMOUTH HBR
PORTSMOUTH & S
PORTCHESTER"

So a passenger with a ticket to Fratton would not be allowed to double back via Southsea or Harbour as the destination, Fratton, is a member of the group. The same is the case with a Cosham-Havant ticket as this time the origin, Cosham is a member of the group. However, in prd101's case, doubling back via the Harbour is allowed as neither the origin or destionation of his/hers ticket isa member of the group. The fact that there are direct services between Havant and Cosham avoiding Prtsmouth is of no relevence in any case.

 

[glynn80]

So a passenger with a ticket to Fratton would not be allowed to double back via Southsea or Harbour as the destination, Fratton, is a member of the group. The same is the case with a Cosham-Havant ticket as this time the origin, Cosham is a member of the group. However, in prd101's case, doubling back via the Harbour is allowed as neither the origin or destionation of his/hers ticket isa member of the group. The fact that there are direct services between Havant and Cosham avoiding Prtsmouth is of no relevence in any case.

I think you have got the Group Station easement the wrong way round. There is absolutely no requirement for the origin or destination station printed on the ticket to be a member of the Group for doubling back to be permitted. In fact it is exactly the reverse that is true.

The Routeing Guide states:

"This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."

So a passenger travelling to Fratton is not permitted to double back via Southsea or Harbour. Exactly the same situation with the Cosham to Havant ticket.

 

[dan_atki]

It is a confusing situation

I disagree. The routeing guide clearly states (in page 6 of its instructions)

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group.

and further states that Portsmouth Group consists of

BEDHAMPTON
COSHAM
FAREHAM
FRATTON
HILSEA
PORTSMOUTH HBR
PORTSMOUTH & S
PORTCHESTER

London to Southampton is valid by map CW (used with PD or LB) and CW shows 'Portsmouth' as a location by which you must travel by when using this combination. The green square indicates it is a routeing group, as shown by the map symbols page.

I maintain, and I'm sure several others here will agree, that a ticket from London to Southampton is valid at Portsmouth Harbour.

a ticket to Fratton is not valid at Southsea or the Harbour as from some stations there is a price differential.

No, the reason is not any price differential but because Fratton is a member of Portsmouth Group, and then doubling back is not permitted as quoted above.

 

[clagmonster]

I think you have got the Group Station easement the wrong way round. There is absolutely no requirement for the origin or destination station printed on the ticket to be a member of the Group for doubling back to be permitted. In fact it is exactly the reverse that is true.

The Routeing Guide states:

"This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."

So a passenger travelling to Fratton is not permitted to double back via Southsea or Harbour. Exactly the same situation with the Cosham to Havant ticket.

Glynn, I think you have misread my post, or I have not worded clearly. I stated that a passenger with a ticket to Fratton would not be allowed to double back, and neither would a person with a ticket from Cosham, exactly the same as you have. The London-Southampton ticket in prb101's case would be valid via the Harbour. My appologies for any poor wording on my part.

 

[glynn80]

My appologies for any poor wording on my part.

My apologies also, did not realise you were trying to convey the same message as myself.