Manchester-Bolton-Preston commuters - why no extra carriages?

[northwichcat]

Rail commuters between Preston and Manchester were dismayed today when Northern Rail decided not to expand the capacity on the city route.

Passengers vented their anger on Twitter as the BBC reported the train operator would be adding 50 more carriages to deal with overcrowding, but Preston would not benefit from these.

Peak-time commuter routes to Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield will all see thousands of extra seats available for the morning rush.

Northern Rail is expecting an increase of one million passengers in 2012, but passengers going between Preston and Manchester said their line should have seen an increase.

DonnaB tweeted upon hearing the news “ridiculous! Always packed and standing!”.

Rachel Shepherd tweeted “The Preston to Manchester route is ridiculously over crowded”.

Matt Roberts said the express service between Preston and Manchester was “mad busy” at commuting times.

A spokeswoman for Northern Rail said the selected routes for extra carriages had been picked after consultation with the Department for Transport.

She said: “The work we have done with the Department for Transport to bring in these extra carriages has been done on a priority basis, therefore the most overcrowded routes on our network have benefited from this.

“Although there will be other routes that do suffer from overcrowding, we have assigned the carriages to the routes where it is needed most and will benefit the greater number of passengers.”

http://blogpreston.co.uk/2011/12/pr...ted-by-northern-rail-extra-capacity-decision/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the fact that First TPE also run services to Preston have anything to do with this?

 

[northwichcat]

Express services are mentioned but the definition of 'express' isn't clear. I'd define the 07:47 and 08:12 departures from Preston for Manchester Airport as express but these are both booked for 6 car. The 07:09 departure from Preston isn't really express, even though it's not all stops. Again in the evening the TPE departures from Manchester Piccadilly at 17:00 and 18:00 are 6 car, while the 17:29 again is a lot of stops but not all stops.

There have been posts on here previously about the 4 car 150s replacing the 180 on the Hazel Grove diagram being inadequate. Some people might even define Hazel Grove services as express because they miss out stations that Victoria services call at.

 

[cj_1985]

its understandable for passengers to complain about overcrowded services...

but what can actually be done...
its not like we (as a country) have spare units just sitting about in yards and depots...

we do know that there is mk.2 stock that could (in theory) be hired from the likes of DBS, Riviera, and WCRC...
but the problem with that stock is a shortage of ETH locos, performance issues to allow services to match DMU timings, and lack of drivers and guard with the TOCs trained on LHCS and whatever locos are chosen...
and the extra costs for training, maintenance, leasing loco and stock and (if required) hiring drivers and guards from other companies... those costs have to be covered... and with the DfT pulling all the stings, if it means that they have to pay out more money, or recieve less payment back in the form of a premium.. they probably won't agree to it...

 

[northwichcat]

its not like we (as a country) have spare units just sitting about in yards and depots...

In the case of the 180 diagrams being replaced by 2x150s they've lost around 20 seats and lost a significant amount of standing space. It's a case of they've lost out while other routes with Northern, FGW and EMT have gained capacity.

They're probably seeing it as a repeat of the fiasco that saw Voyagers removed from Manchester-Scotland services and GMPTE and TPE trying to defend how the 185s have more seats per carriage in defence.

 

[WatcherZero]

Southport and Kirkby services being strengthened also reduces the pressure on the Preston service even though it itself hasnt been, the main pressure on the Preston services are passengers travelling between Bolton and Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

the main pressure on the Preston services are passengers travelling between Bolton and Manchester.

I agree with that comment but if passengers want Piccadilly or Oxford Road, which many do, then extra carriages on Victoria-Kirkby and Victoria-Southport doesn't do much to relieve overcrowding on the TPE and Preston-Hazel Grove services.

It's also the case that some southbound services have all the seats occupied before Bolton and south of Bolton it's as many standees as choose to squeeze on.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes but factor in the people who dont mind which station they use, just wanting the first available train, in particular the extra capacity between Bolton and Salford is irrelevant of trains final destination.

 

[tbtc]

In the case of the 180 diagrams being replaced by 2x150s they've lost around 20 seats and lost a significant amount of standing space. It's a case of they've lost out while other routes with Northern, FGW and EMT have gained capacity

Only a minority of routes with Northern have gained capacity, mainly in/around Manchester. The main improvement in Northern's Sheffield services this timetable change is an 18:14 from Sheffield to the Hope Valley stations. Not unwelcome, but I won't be writing home about it...

 

[northwichcat]

Only a minority of routes with Northern have gained capacity, mainly in/around Manchester. The main improvement in Northern's Sheffield services this timetable change is an 18:14 from Sheffield to the Hope Valley stations. Not unwelcome, but I won't be writing home about it...

Yes the 50 extra carriages are nowhere near enough. However, when some services are getting extra seats it doesn't look good for a well utilised service to loose seats.

 

[142094]

Yet to see any strengthened services up this neck of the woods, but there are a good few trains which are full every day and could do with an extra carriage.

 

[northwichcat]

Yet to see any strengthened services up this neck of the woods, but there are a good few trains which are full every day and could do with an extra carriage.

Only one extra 142 has been allocated for Tyne and Wear services.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yet to see any strengthened services up this neck of the woods, but there are a good few trains which are full every day and could do with an extra carriage.

I'm now waiting to see if the four additional 142s that have been sent to Heaton are going to make any difference to train lengths in the north east. Fingers crossed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only one extra 142 has been allocated for Tyne and Wear services.

Only one? hock::roll: What are the other three 142s that have been reportedly reallocated to Heaton being used for, Yorkshire services I presume?

 

[142094]

Only one extra 142 has been allocated for Tyne and Wear services.

Read one a while ago, but sure we were supposed to get another few from the FGW 142s.

 

[northwichcat]

Only one? hock::roll: What are the other three 142s that have been reallocated to Heaton being used for, Yorkshire services I presume?

The DfT allocation allowed one 150 for the Tyne and Wear area. Northern, not keeping any 150s at Heaton, switched that to become a 142. It's a Newcastle-Hexham diagram that's been mentioned

Sheffield to Lincoln is supposed to have over 300 extra seats split over 3 peak time services. I guess that's 3 x 142s from Heaton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read one a while ago, but sure we were supposed to get another few from the FGW 142s.

I can't find it online now but the initial 150 cascade announcement only provided 8 extra carriages, in addition to 156 and 180 replacement. These 8 carriages were allocated for Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield.

The second cascade announcement for the 8 additional 150 carriages and the 14 x 142 carriages mentioned 137 extra seats for the Newcastle area i.e. a 150: http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20110810

 

[142094]

I can't find it online now but the initial 150 cascade announcement only provided 8 extra carriages, in addition to 156 and 180 replacement. These 8 carriages were allocated for Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield.

The second cascade announcement for the 8 additional 150 carriages and the 14 x 142 carriages mentioned 137 extra seats for the Newcastle area i.e. a 150: http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20110810

One of the latest reports from the TWITA mentioned 1 extra unit being brought up, but someone had said there was four coming this way (can't remember who said it now, or where they got that number from).

 

[swt_passenger]

One of the latest reports from the TWITA mentioned 1 extra unit being brought up, but someone had said there was four coming this way (can't remember who said it now, or where they got that number from).

Additional allocations to Heaton depot don't necessarily mean they'll be used in the area - that could explain the four 'coming this way'.

As posted here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=897179&postcount=10

 

[markydh]

Indeed, you will find Heaton-based diagrams as far afield as the Lancaster-Morecambe shuttles! There is one morning peak Hexham-Middlesbrough service that now runs as 2 x 142. They split upon arrival at Middlesbrough and 1 of them runs ECS to Darlington where it spends much of the rest of the day stabled. Inefficient may be the word to use...

 

[Yew]

Sheffield to Lincoln is supposed to have over 300 extra seats split over 3 peak time services. I guess that's 3 x 142s from Heaton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so doubled up pacers? or could a switch from a pacer to a 150+153 combo do it? (im thinking corridor connections here)

 

[tbtc]

so doubled up pacers? or could a switch from a pacer to a 150+153 combo do it? (im thinking corridor connections here)

The 15.53 Sheffield - Adwick service was a doubled up 144 today (four coaches), which is the first doubled Northern service I've seen in Sheffield for a long time - since this is part of the Lincoln/Scunthorpe "tour" I presume that there will be at least one doubled up Pacer on the Scunthorpe - Lincoln - Adwick diagrams?

I've not noticed any other doubled up Northern services though.

 

[ainsworth74]

They split upon arrival at Middlesbrough and 1 of them runs ECS to Darlington where it spends much of the rest of the day stabled. Inefficient may be the word to use...

Are you sure about that? Whenever I've been to Darlington there is hardly ever any 142s stabled and those units that are there will normally be in between turns rather than just sitting around all day. The only time I've ever seen a unit parked up for a long time is at the end of the day when it's waiting to be joined to another unit before working a Darlo - Saltburn - Darlo - Heaton run.

 

[tbtc]

Yes the 50 extra carriages are nowhere near enough. However, when some services are getting extra seats it doesn't look good for a well utilised service to loose seats.

At least that corridor (Manchester - Bolton - Preston) will have some spare seats in a couple of years (when the Lancaster/ Cumbria/ Scottish passengers are using trains via Wigan instead) and potentially more capacity a few years later when the EMUs arrive.

Many other busy routes don't have the promise of "jam tomorrow", in comparison.

 

[Donny Dave]

The 15.53 Sheffield - Adwick service was a doubled up 144 today (four coaches), which is the first doubled Northern service I've seen in Sheffield for a long time - since this is part of the Lincoln/Scunthorpe "tour" I presume that there will be at least one doubled up Pacer on the Scunthorpe - Lincoln - Adwick diagrams?

I've not noticed any other doubled up Northern services though.

If that's the case, then by my rough working out, it "should" be on the 20:21 Scunthorpe - Doncaster. I don't suppose you got the unit numbers by chance?

PS I doubt very much it will still be doubled up by the time it reaches Scunthorpe though, as the stabling bay is only big enough to fit a 2 car 15x or 3 car 144 in there.

 

[Nym]

Many other busy routes don't have the promise of "jam tomorrow", in comparison.

It might not be jam tomorow though, it might be 6x23m potential diagrams being replaced with 4x20m maximum length services because platforms aren't long enough and the only available EMUs are 319s or 365s...

 

[northwichcat]

Many other busy routes don't have the promise of "jam tomorrow", in comparison.

TfGM estimate that they'll be 12x185s and a total of 48 commuter DMU vehicles available to cascade to non-electrified parts of the North of England as a result of Blackpool-Liverpool-Manchester-Preston electrification. So there will be jam for other parts even though it's a different flavour jam, not to mention North TPE electrification.

 

[tbtc]

It might not be jam tomorow though, it might be 6x23m potential diagrams being replaced with 4x20m maximum length services because platforms aren't long enough and the only available EMUs are 319s or 365s...

We don't know how the re-cast timetable will look (after electrification is completed), we don't know what type of EMUs will be used on the services through Preston. There's a lot of complaints regarding speculation.

TfGM estimate that they'll be 12x185s and a total of 48 commuter DMU vehicles available to cascade to non-electrified parts of the North of England as a result of Blackpool-Liverpool-Manchester-Preston electrification. So there will be jam for other parts even though it's a different flavour jam, not to mention North TPE electrification.

We don't know which other routes may/may not get cascaded 185s, so there are plenty of busy lines which have no guarantee of enhancements.

I've got my own thoughts on where cascaded units can go, as do many of us, but at least the Preston line users have some guaranteed benefits to look forward to.

As ever, everyone thinks that their local line is the worst done by...

 

[northwichcat]

It might not be jam tomorow though, it might be 6x23m potential diagrams being replaced with 4x20m maximum length services because platforms aren't long enough and the only available EMUs are 319s or 365s...

Just had a think of how it could work at peak times working off modifying the current timetable:

07:12 Preston to Manchester Airport (from Scotland 4 car EMU via Wigan)
07:14 Preston to Crewe via Stockport (from Blackpool 4 car EMU semi-fast Preston-Manchester)
07:21 Preston to Hazel Grove (from Blackpool 4 car EMU)
07:42 Preston to Manchester Airport (from Barrow/Windermere 6 car 185)
07:47 Preston to Manchester Victoria (from Blackpool 4 car EMU)
08:10 Preston to Manchester Airport (from Scotland 4 car EMU via Wigan)
08:14 Preston to Buxton (from Blackpool 6 car 156/158 semi-fast Preston-Manchester, rear unit locked out of use at Stockport)
08:21 Preston to Hazel Grove (4 car EMU)


16:16 Man Picc to Barrow/Windermere (from Airport 6 car 185)
16:20 Man Vic to Blackpool (4 car EMU)
16:27 Man Picc to Lancaster (from Alderley Edge 4 car EMU)
16:44 Man Picc to Blackpool (from Crewe 4 car EMU)
16:46 Man Picc to Scotland (from Airport 4 car EMU via Wigan)
16:54 Man Picc to Preston (from Hazel Grove 4 car EMU)
17:15 Man Picc to Barrow/Windermere (from Airport 6 car 185)
17:19 Man Vic to Blackpool (4 car EMU)
17:27 Man Picc to Blackpool (from Buxton 4 car 156/158)
17:44 Man Picc to Blackpool (from Crewe 4 car EMU)
17:46 Man Picc to Scotland (from Airport 4 car EMU via Wigan)
17:54 Man Picc to Blackpool (from Buxton 4 car 156/158)
18:15 Man Picc to Barrow/Windermere (from Airport 6 car 185)

I know some people are going to complain about too many DMUs there but that's just for the peak periods with DMUs allowing more flexible formations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

we don't know what type of EMUs will be used on the services through Preston.

The simple answer is it will be 319s that finish up in the North West unless another operator wants to give up their EMUs in exchange for 319s.

We don't know which other routes may/may not get cascaded 185s, so there are plenty of busy lines which have no guarantee of enhancements.

We do know though. They've been provisionally allocated to allow longer trains on North TPE (until North TPE is electrified.) I would expect the Hull services will all go to 4 car 170s meaning South TPE will see 2 car 170s replaced by 3 car 185s, then the rest of the 185s will make certain North TPE services 6 car.

 

[Nym]

I'm curious as to where TfGM think these 48 vehicles will come from, unless they mean vehicles in the terms of what the DfT normally hike on about...

Current Service Patterns moving DIRECTLY to EMU:
Northern:
Hazel Grove - Preston: 4 units
Blackpool N - Victoria: 4 units
Liverpool - Wigan: 4 units
Liverpool - Blackpool: 4 units
Liverpool - Manchester (Current 1tph): 3 units
Liverpool - Warrington via Earlstown (Moving to Victoria / Replacement): 2/3 Units
Liverpool - Manchester Airport: 3/4 Units

I get that to 24/26 units, assuming the're all two car DMU (most are) then thats beautification of figures by TfGM by saying 'carrages = vehicles' rather than 'units = vehicles' like the DfT like to do so much.

TPE, thats simple...
Manchester - Scotland makes roughly 8 units and BPN - MIA makes four, but it could also be the case that the're claiming that the Blackpool - Airport via Bolton is freeing up 12 'vehicles (carrages)' in 4x3car 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

Hazel Grove - Preston: 4 units
Blackpool N - Victoria: 4 units
Liverpool - Wigan: 4 units
Liverpool - Manchester (Current 1tph): 3 units
Liverpool - Manchester Airport: 3/4 Units

All these services have 4 car operation at peak time (although in the case of Wigan-Liverpool that was introduced yesterday so after TfGM gave figures.) Liverpool-Warrington BQ doesn't run at peak times to allow extra Liverpool-Manchester via Earlestown stoppers.

Of course TfGM may have counted something like 60 diesel vehicles and then said 12 for our non-electrified routes and 48 for other area's non electrified routes.

TPE, thats simple...
Manchester - Scotland makes roughly 8 units and BPN - MIA makes four, but it could also be the case that the're claiming that the Blackpool - Airport via Bolton is freeing up 12 'vehicles (carrages)' in 4x3car 185s.

No they're saying 36 vehicles. Given they are all in 3 car formation I did a simple calculation to get 12 x 3 car 185s.

 

[Nym]

Timetable wise, I'd work on the hourly pattern, assuming a lazy rolling stock strategy, basically, NT gains enough 319s to cover what they don't have in the form of 323s, GM only.

I'm going by times off Piccadilly and Bolton.

xx00 to Victoria from Blackburn
xx03 to Rochdale via Victoria from Wallgate
xx08 to Airport via Piccadilly from Lancaster (Barrow / Windermere)
xx13 to Airport via Piccadilly from Southport
xx25 to Victoria from Blackpool North
xx35 to Airport via Piccadilly from Blackpool
xx39 to Victoria all shacks from Wigan
xx54 to Hazel Grove via Piccadilly from Preston

xx00 stays as is
xx03 stays as is
xx08 will form up as services from Windermere and Barrow, doubling up in the peaks with services from Barrow and Windermere.
xx13 stays as is
xx25 moves over to EMU Operation, 4 car 319 off peak and on peak.
xx35 moves over to EMU Operation, 4 car 319 for off peak and less busy diagrams, 6 car 323 on peak
xx39 now starts from Bolton, operated by a 4 car 319 on and off peak
xx54 same deal as the xx35

Pretty much the same in the reverse direction.

Although if I was writing the timetable...
(Having to stick to provided paths in C Manchester)
xx00 Blackburn - Victoria stays as is (Sprinter)
xx03 Wigan - Rochdale stays as is. (Sprinter)
xx08 arrives into Bolton and joins with the
xx13 from Southport, then runs as a single 6 car 185 on to Manchester Airport (185s for Southport) (2x185)
xx25 moves over to EMU Operation, continues from Victoria to Stalybridge (1x319)
NEW xx30 off Blackburn if possible by a new loop. (Sprinter)
xx35 moves over to EMU Operation, continues to run to MIA. (2x323)
xx39 now runs fast to MCV (Sprinter)
NEW xx42 starts from BON or HWI and runs on to Victoria all shacks (1x319) Flighted bedhind the previous service, now running fast
xx54 continues in the same path (2x323)

That keeps the same paths through Oxford Road and to Airport.

The Airport - Scotland Paths through C.Manchester (initally) will run in the xx03 off Airport (Formally Southport) through C Manchester and use the former xx08 off Bolton path through Oxford Road. (Still going via Paitcroft, only using that path through the Castlefeild Viaduct)

Summary of Services: 3tph into Oxford Road, at xx13, xx35 and xx54 (nice equal(ish) spacing) gives 22, 19 and 19min waits. All services through to Oxford Road are at the maximum possible capacity of 6x23m carrigaes. And are all EMU or Insanely overpowered DMU operated, so they can (GET THE **** OFF CASTLEFEILD VIADUCT QUICK!) that is what will be needed.

Into Victoria, now 5tph, fast services at:
xx03, xx25, xx39, again, reasonable spacing, 22min, 14min and 21min waits. (18min if you include the stopper)
6tph if including an extra service from Blackburn at xx30.

Services from Wigan at xx03, xx13, and xx39, half hourly with an extra, good links to Wigan and Blackburn are of a reasonable importance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All these services have 4 car operation at peak time (although in the case of Wigan-Liverpool that was introduced yesterday so after TfGM gave figures.) Liverpool-Warrington BQ doesn't run at peak times to allow extra Liverpool-Manchester via Earlestown stoppers.

Of course TfGM may have counted something like 60 diesel vehicles and then said 12 for our non-electrified routes and 48 for other area's non electrified routes.

Every service would need to be running doubled up to get to 48 units, and only one or two diagrams through Bolton are doubled up, I get the feeling they have miscounted there...

No they're saying 36 vehicles. Given they are all in 3 car formation I did a simple calculation to get 12 x 3 car 185s.

Ahh, should have read further up.