Nym
Established Member
As promised from the HS2 thread.
As some background, I don't think the platforms at Oxford Road are long enough, nor do I think that there is going to be enough track capacity in Manchester to cope with the Metrolink Expansion, even with the 2CC scheme. So, what I would be proposing in slightly more detail.
When the new platforms are built over Fairfeild St at Piccadilly, there will be an opertunity to build a turnback siding between the slow lines (where it will not affect the services entering or leaving the platforms to the South East).
I beleive that this could be used for the CLC line services that currently terminate at Oxford Road.
Alternativly, place 4 additional platforms over Fairfeild St, using the two central platforms for services terminating from Oxford Road, not only the CLC line services, but perhaps select Manchester - Scotland services or some from the Bolton direction.
Either way, either of these provisions should realisticly provide space for 4tph to terminate from OR in Piccadilly without causing issues.
Therefore:
Extend platforms 1 and 4 at Oxford Road to 8 car Length, and change track layout slightly so that they can call here on entry, with a 4 car service on 2 & 3 without disruping entry or exit, there is space, just, I hope, there should be.
Platform 4 would cut off the existing platform 5, and old 6, as services will no longer need to terminate here from Deansgate and will instead do so at Piccadilly, or in platforms 2 & 3 in times of congestion, this would be OK.
Now, onto the Metrolink, some of you may have read a recent proposal for a Tram/Train for the Alt'ham line, and there would be spare space for two platforms at Oxford Road, and anything potentially (in future) 10tph on each route through Cornbrook, now oviously this would need Cornbrook and the Metrolink lines over the Viaduct to become 4 track, but this again, is easilly do-able. Cornbrook would need to be re-built into a staggered two island platform station, as this is how the lines enter the station.
Deansgate G-Mex would recive some treatment aswell, but this time, the islands would be paired by route. Oviously with a crossover or so on either side. Preferably with a grade seperated overbridge on the viaduct prior to the station to avoid too many conficts.
Now, the northern most pair would continue down onto the overbridge, and into St Peter's Square, as normal, the CC routes, IMO, will have a limit of 20tph/route.
So upto 40tph will be the upper limit for reliable connections across Manchester.
Now. Lets say all possible routes are built from Cornbrook...
So...
Eccles
Media City
Alt'ham
Stockport via East Didsbury
Port Salford
Airport via Wythenshawe
Now, to fit this in with 40tph the maximum, only two routes can have a healthy, tram line 10tph, these being East Disbury and Alt'ham.
Now suppose there is to be more lines, to Walkden, Leigh, anywhere, there would be no space for these, and TfGM will not want to reduce service, the same if one of the other routes needs more services.
The 2nd island at Deansgate G-Mex would extend from the Eastern end of the viaduct, on a new bridge over the road, and then onto a semi open viaduct, down paralell to the Railway Viaduct, and into the space formally used by Platforms 5 and 6 at Oxford Road.
Now, the barriers at Oxford Road could easilly be set to accept Metrolink card stock, it would provide an excelent and much faster link to Piccadilly and the Oxford Road corridor, via the Oxford Road bus stops.
It would also have a theoretical capacity of up to 20tph, maybe more if a third platform where built on the extened viaduct.
Now, back to my Tram-Train proposals.
I would be looking to run these additional, 200 seat, 4 carrage, 1500hp (Diesel) generator under two carrages (or some other tech developed by PPM), tram/trains into Oxford Road. This would have several benifits.
1) They would run almost exclusivly on segrigated inferstucture, so could potentially be longer than the current limit of 4 cars of tram lenth, possibly a bit longer carrages, and more seating, better designed for Mid Cheshire Line commuters, the unit would primeraly be a train.
2) Longer units would also be able to have controlled discharge toilets, nessesarry.
3) Platforms on the route wouldn't need that much lengthening, the platforms are already reasonably long.
I'll cut the benifits and look at an example timetable.
This will be initally designed for maximum connectivity and simplicity.
5tph Bury - Alt'ham via CC2
5tph Bury - Piccadilly via CC1
5tph Rochdale - Piccadilly via CC1
5tph Oldham - Eccles via CC2
5tph Ashton U Lyne - East Didsbury CC1
5tph Ashton U Lyne - Stockport CC2
5tph Port Salford - Victoria CC1
5tph Media City UK - Victoria CC2
5tph Oxford Road - Airport
3tph Oxford Road - Alt'ham - Chester via Mid Cheshire
2tph Oxford Road - Alt'ham
This would give two types of stock two platforms at Oxford Road with 7tph of Tram stock, and 3tph of TramTrain stock. There would be a link for tram-trains to access the normal running lines at Oxford Road, but these would not be frequently used.
There is also scope, if additional platforms or an additional ramp is provided to either terminate more trams at Oxford Road, or runing them through the station, and down Oxford Road it'self, extended down Wilmslow Road to Fallowfeild.
Especially with 4 track and 4 platforms at both Deansgate and Cornbrook, and if the Tram Train could work, and I think Parry Pepole Movers may be the pepole to make it work, the Mid Cheshire line can get into Manchester 10mins quicker, and have a step increase in services. There would also be then the ability for the standard sizes of unit around Greater Manchester to move onto 4 / 8 car units, rather than 3 / 6, as 4 seems to be the standard nowerdays.
Oh and PS, these tram trains would have retention toilets, I would consider adding 'emptying pits' at Oxford Road, but this would be an untried peice of Tech.
I would also be looking at a re-opening of the line through Middlewitch (I know I proberbly spelled it wrong) to Sandbatch. With the remaining 2tph sent this way as 'tram train'. If this technology works, it would be wholey possible to also run onto the East Lancs Railway for services from round there to be through services again, but these would need to terminate at Victoria.
And I've just noticed a secondary that could come in handy, send the Media City UK trams to Oxford Road, connecting the dots...
In case I missed anything, heres the full post from t'other thread
Final PS: I wouldn't scrap the heavy rail service allong the route, meerly make it clear that it will only ever be 1tph. And that you can get to Piccadilly faster via the new 'tram trains' and put in place a passenger survay to see how many pepole actually use the service then from the Mid Cheshire beyond stockport, if none, new bay or turnback at Stockport and it can either terminate there, or get sent off as an hourly service to Guide Bridge / Victoria via Denton.
Metrolink viaducts are much cheaper and easyer to construct than Heavy Rail ones. And Oxford road is currently missed off the map. And with how one sides the Metrolink network is becoming, with so much running through Cornbrook, and not that much through Victoria, Oxford Roads former bays would provide a handy place to terminate some metrolink services in the CC. I'll take this further in another thread.
As some background, I don't think the platforms at Oxford Road are long enough, nor do I think that there is going to be enough track capacity in Manchester to cope with the Metrolink Expansion, even with the 2CC scheme. So, what I would be proposing in slightly more detail.
When the new platforms are built over Fairfeild St at Piccadilly, there will be an opertunity to build a turnback siding between the slow lines (where it will not affect the services entering or leaving the platforms to the South East).
I beleive that this could be used for the CLC line services that currently terminate at Oxford Road.
Alternativly, place 4 additional platforms over Fairfeild St, using the two central platforms for services terminating from Oxford Road, not only the CLC line services, but perhaps select Manchester - Scotland services or some from the Bolton direction.
Either way, either of these provisions should realisticly provide space for 4tph to terminate from OR in Piccadilly without causing issues.
Therefore:
Extend platforms 1 and 4 at Oxford Road to 8 car Length, and change track layout slightly so that they can call here on entry, with a 4 car service on 2 & 3 without disruping entry or exit, there is space, just, I hope, there should be.
Platform 4 would cut off the existing platform 5, and old 6, as services will no longer need to terminate here from Deansgate and will instead do so at Piccadilly, or in platforms 2 & 3 in times of congestion, this would be OK.
Now, onto the Metrolink, some of you may have read a recent proposal for a Tram/Train for the Alt'ham line, and there would be spare space for two platforms at Oxford Road, and anything potentially (in future) 10tph on each route through Cornbrook, now oviously this would need Cornbrook and the Metrolink lines over the Viaduct to become 4 track, but this again, is easilly do-able. Cornbrook would need to be re-built into a staggered two island platform station, as this is how the lines enter the station.
Deansgate G-Mex would recive some treatment aswell, but this time, the islands would be paired by route. Oviously with a crossover or so on either side. Preferably with a grade seperated overbridge on the viaduct prior to the station to avoid too many conficts.
Now, the northern most pair would continue down onto the overbridge, and into St Peter's Square, as normal, the CC routes, IMO, will have a limit of 20tph/route.
So upto 40tph will be the upper limit for reliable connections across Manchester.
Now. Lets say all possible routes are built from Cornbrook...
So...
Eccles
Media City
Alt'ham
Stockport via East Didsbury
Port Salford
Airport via Wythenshawe
Now, to fit this in with 40tph the maximum, only two routes can have a healthy, tram line 10tph, these being East Disbury and Alt'ham.
Now suppose there is to be more lines, to Walkden, Leigh, anywhere, there would be no space for these, and TfGM will not want to reduce service, the same if one of the other routes needs more services.
The 2nd island at Deansgate G-Mex would extend from the Eastern end of the viaduct, on a new bridge over the road, and then onto a semi open viaduct, down paralell to the Railway Viaduct, and into the space formally used by Platforms 5 and 6 at Oxford Road.
Now, the barriers at Oxford Road could easilly be set to accept Metrolink card stock, it would provide an excelent and much faster link to Piccadilly and the Oxford Road corridor, via the Oxford Road bus stops.
It would also have a theoretical capacity of up to 20tph, maybe more if a third platform where built on the extened viaduct.
Now, back to my Tram-Train proposals.
I would be looking to run these additional, 200 seat, 4 carrage, 1500hp (Diesel) generator under two carrages (or some other tech developed by PPM), tram/trains into Oxford Road. This would have several benifits.
1) They would run almost exclusivly on segrigated inferstucture, so could potentially be longer than the current limit of 4 cars of tram lenth, possibly a bit longer carrages, and more seating, better designed for Mid Cheshire Line commuters, the unit would primeraly be a train.
2) Longer units would also be able to have controlled discharge toilets, nessesarry.
3) Platforms on the route wouldn't need that much lengthening, the platforms are already reasonably long.
I'll cut the benifits and look at an example timetable.
This will be initally designed for maximum connectivity and simplicity.
5tph Bury - Alt'ham via CC2
5tph Bury - Piccadilly via CC1
5tph Rochdale - Piccadilly via CC1
5tph Oldham - Eccles via CC2
5tph Ashton U Lyne - East Didsbury CC1
5tph Ashton U Lyne - Stockport CC2
5tph Port Salford - Victoria CC1
5tph Media City UK - Victoria CC2
5tph Oxford Road - Airport
3tph Oxford Road - Alt'ham - Chester via Mid Cheshire
2tph Oxford Road - Alt'ham
This would give two types of stock two platforms at Oxford Road with 7tph of Tram stock, and 3tph of TramTrain stock. There would be a link for tram-trains to access the normal running lines at Oxford Road, but these would not be frequently used.
There is also scope, if additional platforms or an additional ramp is provided to either terminate more trams at Oxford Road, or runing them through the station, and down Oxford Road it'self, extended down Wilmslow Road to Fallowfeild.
Especially with 4 track and 4 platforms at both Deansgate and Cornbrook, and if the Tram Train could work, and I think Parry Pepole Movers may be the pepole to make it work, the Mid Cheshire line can get into Manchester 10mins quicker, and have a step increase in services. There would also be then the ability for the standard sizes of unit around Greater Manchester to move onto 4 / 8 car units, rather than 3 / 6, as 4 seems to be the standard nowerdays.
Oh and PS, these tram trains would have retention toilets, I would consider adding 'emptying pits' at Oxford Road, but this would be an untried peice of Tech.
I would also be looking at a re-opening of the line through Middlewitch (I know I proberbly spelled it wrong) to Sandbatch. With the remaining 2tph sent this way as 'tram train'. If this technology works, it would be wholey possible to also run onto the East Lancs Railway for services from round there to be through services again, but these would need to terminate at Victoria.
And I've just noticed a secondary that could come in handy, send the Media City UK trams to Oxford Road, connecting the dots...
In case I missed anything, heres the full post from t'other thread
One thing I am hoping for is that there will be a decision on what will be happening at Manchester, at the inital state of construction, so that building will start on the Manchester HS2 station at the inital stage.
It will be connected into the conventional network between Rugley and Ardwick (Assuming the use of the Mayfeild Insustrial Site as the HS2 station). And the platforms built at Mayfeild would be to the EU Standard, possibly with some additional standard platforms to take some strain off of Piccadilly.
This would allow for minimal level of disruption to the Piccadilly throught, rather than extending the existing platforms at Piccadilly. It would mean that services on the HS2 route, using CC stock would need to cross the slow lines when entering or leaving the station. But it would mean that 400m services would be able to run on Day1 into Manchester, and free up terminal platform space that is desprately needed.
If the linespeed on the slows between Slade Lane and Piccadilly where improved it would mitigate some of the effects of crossing the slows, and would only be for 3 or 4tph, with all of the way from Ardwick to Slade Lane to change sides it would be enough IMO.
It would also provide a good face for HS2 in Manchester, with somthing shiney and new to look at, some Mancunians are known to like shiney things.
I would also intergrate this with a new walkway from the far south side of the inside of the Piccadilly Concourse, down to Platforms 13 - 16 and the new HS Station, with new drop off points on Fairfeild St. I'd also be having pasive or active provision for platforms 17 and 18...
Before I get so far off topic it's rediculous, for anyone who doesn't know my vision of Piccadilly.
3 Additional platforms on the North Side
4 Additional platforms over Fairfeild St or 2 Platforms over Fairfeild St with a reversing siding to the South East in the centre of the slow lines.
The Mayfeild site would be used for the HS2 terminal station in Manchester, with provision for a link over towards Ardwick on a viaduct for services onwards over the Pennines, or looping round onto other routes, if large enough, provision for a link through the HS2 station, roughly paralell with the A57M/A635M Mancunican Way out toward the Chat Moss Alignment, although this link would also be provided at Manchester West Parkway.
So we'd end up with
2 Platforms to the North East of the main shed. 1 & 2
12 Platforms in the current shed. 3 - 14
6 Platforms through to Oxford Road and over Fairfeild Street. 15 - 20
8 Platforms on the Mayfeild Ind. Site for HS2, at appropriate guage. 21 - 28
2 Metrolink platforms in the undercroft.
30 platforms at Piccadilly
I'd also change Oxford Road, until 4 track across Manchester arrives, that I dowbt it ever will, I would have a minor re-alignment and extention of the platforms, if 6 platforms or a good enough turnback was provided at Piccadilly, nothing would terminate at Oxford Road any more, Platform 5 and the space of Platform 6 would be completly superflous, and disconnected from the network. This would allow platforms 1 and 8 to be extended to 8 * 23m length.
Really off topic now, but what the hey....
I would look at using the space of Platforms 5 & 6 for somthing though. Metrolink.
Metrolink viaducts are much cheaper and easyer to construct than Heavy Rail ones. And Oxford road is currently missed off the map. And with how one sides the Metrolink network is becoming, with so much running through Cornbrook, and not that much through Victoria, Oxford Roads former bays would provide a handy place to terminate some metrolink services in the CC. I'll take this further in another thread.
Final PS: I wouldn't scrap the heavy rail service allong the route, meerly make it clear that it will only ever be 1tph. And that you can get to Piccadilly faster via the new 'tram trains' and put in place a passenger survay to see how many pepole actually use the service then from the Mid Cheshire beyond stockport, if none, new bay or turnback at Stockport and it can either terminate there, or get sent off as an hourly service to Guide Bridge / Victoria via Denton.