Manchester to Crewe routeing

[Starmill]

So... this afternoon I decided to start trying to understand how to use the Routeing Guide. I've been putting off doing it properly for a while, and the complexity and long windedness of the process gave me headache and didn't seem to yield much at all. While reading the very helpful guide on here I picked a random journey: Mauldeth Road to Crewe and decided to test it.

Here's what I came up with. Now please don't laugh at me if I'm hopelessly lost...

Northern provide direct trains, so these are all valid... so far, so good.

The shortest route appears to be via Styal, which is the one taken by the Northern stopper, but I don't know how Manchester Airport fits into all this...

For mapped routes, I got:

Mauldeth Road is associated with Wilmslow Group and Manchester Group
Crewe is a Routeing Point

Manchester Group - Crewe has:
GM+NC
MS
(Wilmslow Group - Crewe just has MS)
Can't see that there's anything on MS else.... is there?

for the other two, (and this is the bit I'm unsure of)
Manchester - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Earlestown - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Bolton - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe

And the last two odd ones:

Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Halifax - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe

Can anybody help me out with this? I got rather confused at this point.

Anyway, I went to the Northern website to check some of these theories out...

I put Mauldeth Road to Crewe via Blackburn and got this:

10:30 Mauldeth Road to 10:42 Manchester Piccadilly
Duration 12m, seats not reservable
Travel by: NORTHERN RAIL

10:54 Manchester Piccadilly to 11:14 Bolton
Duration 20m, seats not reservable
Travel by: NORTHERN RAIL

11:20 Bolton to 11:50 Blackburn
Duration 30m, seats not reservable
Travel by: NORTHERN RAIL

12:03 Blackburn to 12:30 Bolton
Duration 27m, seats not reservable
Travel by: NORTHERN RAIL

12:35 Bolton to 12:56 Manchester Piccadilly
Duration 21m, Standard and First Class seating
Travel by: FIRST TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS 

13:30 Manchester Piccadilly to 14:05 Crewe
Duration 35m, seats not reservable
Travel by: ARRIVA TRAINS WALES

Reserved seating is available, which is annoying because I can't normally get seat reservations with ATW when I want one!

What's going on here???? Is it just me being stupid.

Well... I thought it was, then I tried a lot of other via points. They produce mental results. My favourite is this itinerary, generated by putting 'VIA EUXTON BALSHAW LANE'

I wouldn't like to get on the Northern train from Lime Street to Preston with a ticket from Mauldeth Road to Crewe, that's all I'll say.

Just to confuse me further, no website will actually generate a route along the mapped routes I thought I'd found earlier, via Bolton then Blackburn then Preston and to Crewe down the main line... I don't understand the double backs given. Makes for comical maps though! Perhaps this is all documented already? Would such an itinerary hold any water, given that these are not advances?

The main thing I'm looking for though is what the permitted routes between Mauldeth Road and Crewe actually are. Please!

 

[bb21]

Northern provide direct trains, so these are all valid... so far, so good.

The walk-on ticket is routed Any Permitted, so all direct trains are valid.

The shortest route appears to be via Styal, which is the one taken by the Northern stopper, but I don't know how Manchester Airport fits into all this...

The shortest route trackwise is via the airport avoider and Styal, however this cannot be done on scheduled services. The shortest route is therefore via Manchester Airport and Styal, at 29.5 miles.

For mapped routes, I got:

Mauldeth Road is associated with Wilmslow Group and Manchester Group
Crewe is a Routeing Point

Fares check needs to be performed. Mauldeth Road is associated with two Routeing Points so we need to check which (if any) is/are appropriate.

Mauldeth Road - Crewe Route Any Permitted SDS £12.80

Manchester Stns - Crewe Route Any Permitted SDS £12.80
Wilmslow - Crewe Route Any Permitted SDS £9.10

Both are therefore appropriate Routeing Points.

Manchester Group - Crewe has:
GM+NC
MS
(Wilmslow Group - Crewe just has MS)
Can't see that there's anything on MS else.... is there?

Barring the direct route via Styal and the route via Stockport, you could also go Manchester Group - Reddish North / Guide Bridge - Romiley - Chinley - Hazel Grove - Stockport - Wilmslow - Crewe, not that it gives many additional journey opportunities.

for the other two, (and this is the bit I'm unsure of)
Manchester - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Earlestown - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Bolton - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe

Correct.

And the last two odd ones:

Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe
Manchester - Halifax - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe

Good spot.

What's going on here???? Is it just me being stupid.

Some sort of bug I would imagine.

Well... I thought it was, then I tried a lot of other via points. They produce mental results. My favourite is this itinerary, generated by putting 'VIA EUXTON BALSHAW LANE'

I wouldn't like to get on the Northern train from Lime Street to Preston with a ticket from Mauldeth Road to Crewe, that's all I'll say.

Booking engines apparently have their own version of Routeing Guide maps completely different to what the public version says. However until they change the public version, this is the definitive Routeing Guide and forms part of the contract with the passenger regardless of what is implemented by the booking engines.

Just to confuse me further, no website will actually generate a route along the mapped routes I thought I'd found earlier, via Bolton then Blackburn then Preston and to Crewe down the main line... I don't understand the double backs given. Makes for comical maps though! Perhaps this is all documented already? Would such an itinerary hold any water, given that these are not advances?

ATOC's view is that itinerary should be honoured if sold with a ticket, however we have had numerous reports of train managers being unhappy with the itinerary issued and subsequently refusing travel.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....What's going on here???? Is it just me being stupid....

Journey planners return the quickest journey with the specified options, they may not return a valid fare for that journey. National Rail's website (NRES) will often do this sort of double-back, and will show (somewhere) that two tickets are required.

....Would such an itinerary hold any water, given that these are not advances?....

If you bought the ticket with that itinerary then you have a good chance, provided you carry the itinerary with you.

 

[kieron]

The shortest route trackwise is via the airport avoider and Styal, however this cannot be done on scheduled services.

It can, actually. Pretty much everything which goes through Stockport stops there, so most, if not all, of the trains which don't stop between Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly use that curve.

The National Rail Timetable doesn't give a distance for this curve, for if you rely on that for distances. Table 84 gives a distance from Wilmslow to Manchester Airport but no further, and table 85 gives one from Manchester Airport to Mauldeth Road but no further.

This means that the shortest distance from Styal to Heald Green in the timetable is via Manchester Airport, and that the shortest listed distance from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Piccadilly is also via Manchester Airport. I don't believe you would be at any risk in taking a direct train from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Piccadilly with a Mauldeth Road-Crewe ticket, however.

Booking engines apparently have their own version of Routeing Guide maps completely different to what the public version says. However until they change the public version, this is the definitive Routeing Guide and forms part of the contract with the passenger regardless of what is implemented by the booking engines.

There are a few different interpretations of the routeing guide on web sites. You can sometimes tweak the settings to make your preferred route the fastest one (say, by selecting a route via Bamber Bridge rather than Blackburn), or by trying a different web site (Northern, East Coast and Arriva Trains Wales all use different engines with slightly different rules).

One thing starmill didn't mention doing which could be important is to check the list of easements. There's nothing there which would restrict a Mauldeth Road-Crewe ticket on one of the routes mentioned, but it's worth checking. Particularly when using a route which is significantly longer than the most obvious one.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It can, actually. Pretty much everything which goes through Stockport stops there, so most, if not all, of the trains which don't stop between Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly use that curve....

I suggest you consult a rail map.

 

[kieron]

I suggest you consult a rail map.

Care to suggest one, as I have no idea what you mean?