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Manual Transmission on buses
- Thread starter Barry169
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GusB
Established Member
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. You won't get any manual buses these days and I'm not even aware of any coach manufacturers that supply traditional manuals, either. (For clarity, I'm not counting automated "manual" transmissions as they function as automatics.)
I've been on plenty of automatics that have given a smooth ride and I've had plenty of trips on manual vehicles where the opposite was the case!
I doubt the drivers will agree with you.
Geordie driver
Member
Have you ever driven a manual bus in service?
There is nothing wrong with a decent automatic gear box, or even better in my opinion, a semi auto.
PG
Established Member
Given that the manufacturers are switching (unintended pun
) at pace to electric propulsion there is no need for a manual transmission.As long as engineering adjust/set up the box correctly then yes, nowt wrong with them and a boon for drivers. Often problems with jerking were down to the retarder cutting in too aggressively off throttle/under braking.
While a semi auto felt better from a fully-in-control point of view, engineering had to deal with the consequences of drivers who failed to appreciate that the mechanism didn't work by magic and flicked the selector back and forth like a joystick on an arcade game!
It does always seem as an observer that towards the ends of their days coaches with manual gearboxes, and a long gearstick, turn out to be quite difficult to engage in gear.
Well, maybe not in the UK but as far as I am aware the last bus I've seen that can be specced with a manual gearbox is an Ukrainian low entry midibus ZAZ A10C - it comes with a ZF 6S-700 BO 6 gear manual gearbox as a standard. Plenty of them are running on local routes around Warsaw outskirts, overall they are not a very good buses, but one of the cheapest on the market.
Also another new buses that could be ordered with manual in Europe until very recently (sanctions) were Byelorussian low floor buses - МАЗ 103 and МАЗ 107 still manufactured today for local market, these are based on an old Neoplan N40xx series design. Export manual versions used ZF manual gearbox, mostly 6S-85 or in cheaper variant Czech made Praga 5PS-114. The domestic ones could come with either ЯМЗ 236П/Л or МАЗ-306 ones.
Concluding - manual seems to be more of a Eastern European affair and as other had mentioned with electrics making their way in huge quantities I don't think they will make a significant comeback any time soon
I think your getting it the wrong way round, automatics are smoother and better on fuel now. Probably similar costs as well since they have become more popular than manual.
A manual is just a relic these days and serves no purpose in a modern bus or coach. I've driven both coaches and buses with a manual and it makes for much harder day. I think I will keep the automatic thank you!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Bring back manual gearboxes? What next - no power steering either? I'm sure that @Geordie driver will have fond memories of hauling a Bristol LH round the suburbs of North Tyneside/South Northumberland.
The fact is that automatic transmission has been the default choice for the last >30 years. With the move to EVs, that is even more baked in (if that were possible).
Interesting the mention of semi-auto gearboxes, and it has been discussed at length in earlier threads. Great in the hands of a sympathetic driver but so many instances of abuse; those drivers who tried to "beat the light" on an SCG gearbox were responsible for many a failed transmission (and there is the well known National Bus driver training video on youtube that shows how and why).
On a trip on the Exmoor Coaster last year with an e400 hopping up and down the gears, I did wonder whether the ability to hold a gear (as per the old Leyland Hydracyclic) isn't something that would be useful though it's perhaps functionality that is a bit niche.
The fact is that automatic transmission has been the default choice for the last >30 years. With the move to EVs, that is even more baked in (if that were possible).
Interesting the mention of semi-auto gearboxes, and it has been discussed at length in earlier threads. Great in the hands of a sympathetic driver but so many instances of abuse; those drivers who tried to "beat the light" on an SCG gearbox were responsible for many a failed transmission (and there is the well known National Bus driver training video on youtube that shows how and why).
On a trip on the Exmoor Coaster last year with an e400 hopping up and down the gears, I did wonder whether the ability to hold a gear (as per the old Leyland Hydracyclic) isn't something that would be useful though it's perhaps functionality that is a bit niche.
GusB
Established Member
It may well be the case that manual transmissions are still available in Eastern Europe, but this section of the forum is concerned with UK operations. If you're referring specifically to minibuses, I believe those supplied to the UK market these days have some form of automatic transmission. There may well be a manual option available, but you'll probably find that most operators won't adopt them, particularly in areas where there's lots of stop/start work.
On full-size, low floor, buses with rear engines, there are also engineering factors to consider; how do you link that big lever in the cab to the gearbox at the back? You're either going to need a rod or cable linkage which could be tricky with the lack of space under the floor. Volvo got around this with the EGS system which used electro-pneumatic control, but that was superceded by i-shift which isn't a true manual.
Others have pointed out the additional driver workload with manuals.
Don't get me wrong, I miss the days of travelling on a well-driven manual coach, but I'd certainly not like to see them back for service work. I once had a trip out of Glasgow on a Central Scottish Leyland Leopard and that gearbox got a fair amount of punishment (evidently it was giving as good as it got!) Who would seriously want to drive such a bus through modern-day city traffic?
It was certainly possible with Voith and ZF transmissions to hold it in a lower gear; on a 4-speed Voith there were buttons for D, 3 2 and 1. I've seen it done where the driver presses the button immediately next to "D" then "kicks down" to a lower gear and the box will hold it there until "D" is pressed again. Is it possible to disable this feature? I can understand why an operator would do so if it was being abused.
You mention the Hydracyclic. We had some Olympians with fully-automatic control and I remember them being very jerky in operation; when I spent some time in Edinburgh it was noticeable how much smoother Lothian's examples were. I wonder whether the difference was due the gearbox being close- or wide-ratio.
Most of the Seddon Pennine 7s bought by the Scottish Bus Group were manual transmission. The clutch judder on them when setting off is well-known and add to that the gearbox gate being offset to the right. Drivers who knew of this coped no problem as they knew of the knacks required to combat them. The new starts soon knew about it when they selected what they thought was first, released the clutch and took off backwards, or ended up with a judder so fierce it resulted in a stall (and probably sent a good amount of false teeth flying down the aisle in the process).
Whisky Papa
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Having passed my PCVIII on a manual in 1989 (Leyland Titan PD2), I never drove a full-size manual bus again, which I have no regrets about!
Re Voith and ZF, the latter were great combined with a Cummins engine, and were normally very smooth. Unfortunately, Todmorden garage was allocated a number of ex West Yorkshire Road Car Olympians to replace our final Daimler Fleetlines, and three of these had Voith transmissions. I'd never been a fan of the Voith gearbox since Metrobuses arrived in Manchester, but driving them on our hilly routes was a nightmare, often down to a crawl and jumping up and down between first and second - awful!
Three of the other ex WRCC Olympians had Hydracyclic boxes, although one had a different control head to the other two, whilst a fourth had a semi-automatic box, and would be the last such bus I would drive I suspect. As a left-hander, its offside located gear lever was not ideal for me either, but it at least it could give a smooth ride.
Geordie driver
Member
Indeed, ok for a ride out to Ashington, awful on Tyneside circular,I blame the Stotty Box ( Bristol LH) for my left knee being weak.
You had to open the cab door to find reverse. First and second gear were more or less the same, as were third and fourth. I assumed this was due to the gearbox being intended for HGV but that's just a guess.
Some drivers only used second and fourth.
PTE money made it bearable .
I suspect the thread starter has been on a Wright Streetlite and assumes all modern gearboxes are supposed to be like this.
Had to check the date to make sure it wasn't an April fool! I remember preselectors, never used a Manual and to be honest would never want to on a service bus, I had the clutch pack go on a Manual lorry once, couldn't even move the thing to tow it. When even lorries are auto boxes now and as stated with the move to EV or hybrid drivetrains a manual would be a waste of time anyway.
matchmaker
Established Member
I have many memories of travelling on SBG Leopards - virtually all with the manual no synchro on 1st & 2nd gearbox. On the level most drivers coped fairly well. A different matter in Glasgows hilly city centre! Meantime Glasgow Corporation had an entirely auto/semi auto/preselector fleet since the early 1960s (certainly by 1966). The last manual bus was I think an Albion Venturer.
Up in Northern land in the early 1970s there was a mix. As a teenage enthusiast it looked as if the AEC Reliances had a nice gearbox, the Albion Viking VK43 of course had the gearbox about 30 feet behind the driver...and the R series Fords appeared to have an excellent gearbox. Just my memories, but perhaps someone with experience of driving these types can comment.
Up in Northern land in the early 1970s there was a mix. As a teenage enthusiast it looked as if the AEC Reliances had a nice gearbox, the Albion Viking VK43 of course had the gearbox about 30 feet behind the driver...and the R series Fords appeared to have an excellent gearbox. Just my memories, but perhaps someone with experience of driving these types can comment.
PG
Established Member
Assuming your "we" refers to Northern then I'd suggest it could be down to each operators level of engineering expertise. I think its fair to say, certainly in the 80's, Lothian ranked above Northern in quality of their fleet.
Lothian's chief mechanical foreman at the time went by the belief that prevention was better than cure - he was aware of the issues which the Leyland Hydracyclic gear control system had and set about addressing them.
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